EVE Online Politics: A spy just screwed a few thousand players, years of work.

[Simriel]

What is it about eve that so captivating? I honestly could not get into it. I player a two week trial, and gave up after 6 days, because by this point my ship had been blow up a dozen times, and i had also spent a lot of time finding something else to do while playing it (watching buffy for example). I honeslty went into the trial expecting to enjoy it, but i just found no fun in it at all

 

[hellthins]

Ok, more Info, GS Stole 2 Trillion+ of Assets, Dreds/carriers and other High end items, There WONT be a BoB/Band Of Brothers, Goonswarm has Created a Corp called Band of Brothers/BoB corp, BoB HAVE petitioned it, as a hack on the Director that Disbanded the corp, Come on, Most EVE players Will know that GS is Full of Channers, that do "good" hacks... we'll see what happens

Actually goons and the chons have a bit of a rivalry with each other. It's not likely that people from 4chan/7chan/420chan will be present in large numbers in the Goon Swarm.

Though I could see this being used as an excuse for the BoB to get their stuff back and not have to suffer the consequences.

 

[geldonyetich]

BUT**, what about the PvP content? Does pwning other ships not appeal to you? Being a pirate and such provides some instant gratification, more often than not, in being a professional griefer, but hey, without pirates, EVE WOULD be completely boring. They keep the rest of us on our toes.

The PvP element would hold more appeal for me, except I see it to be a ridiculously uphill battle. Success or failure in EVE Online is about 98% having the best ship and components for the job (and knowing this when deciding whether or flee or fight) 2% players remembering to turn on the right modules and when.

Consequently, pwnzoring others is really mostly a matter of being better connected with a powerful corporation or having played for a longer time and therefore having better skill levels or ships. Great if you do, otherwise it sucks: to an unestablished player, everything you own in the game will amount a veteran player's throwaway PvP fodder, and that veteran player will leave you destitute out of boredom.

Now, if the game were at least 75% players remembering to turn on the right modules and when in determining success or failure in combat, where a poorly-played highest-technology dreadnought could be defeated by an ace pilot in a cheaply-outfitted frigate, that would be enough for the inner gaming purist to sit up and pay attention. However, the way EVE Online is balanced, there would be a massive uproar if you could lose your credit investment so easily, so they make modules very easy to use to maximum effectiveness.

What they have is a game where you're terrified to even take your Dreadnoughts for a spin for fear of the time invested to make one, and that's another count against gaming purism for me.

Incidentally, even WoW, despite having some of that initial gameplay appeal, is not quite good enough for me. I bored of WoW when I bored of EverQuest, really - WoW is just a steamlined, computer-friendly version with a little bit of Blizzard in the GUI and a Warcraft paint job. WoW is the McDonald's of MMORPGs: millions served, but it's not 5-star dining for the purist.

Lately, I've realized us gaming purists are a weird bunch. It's like going to a wine and cheese festival and meeting people who find disgustingly moldy cheese and rancid wine to be worth the whole trip of being there because, after decades of consumption, they've found there's a certain aspect about these unlikely sources that embodies what being a true wine and cheese enthusiast is. Yet, the average philistine would be content with a bottle of supermarket red. So it is with a purist and WoW, and EVE Online feels like something else entirely - a block of fruitcake at the wine and cheese festival.

 

[Jenny Creed]

Success or failure in EVE Online is about 98% having the best ship and components for the job (and knowing this when deciding whether or flee or fight) 2% players remembering to turn on the right modules and when.

It's more like 9% having the best ship, 1% timing and 90% having more friends than the other guy. If you ask me.

Yeah, it's not a very traditional way to play games, it's not Super Mario bros, it's real time tactical battles decided by real people you don't have control over. I guess you can complain that it's not the way games used to be, or you can enjoy the emergence of the first large-scale virtual nation.

 

[geldonyetich]

It's more like 9% having the best ship, 1% timing and 90% having more friends than the other guy. If you ask me.

True, and this is the case of any unregulated PvP game. That's another reason I don't cooperate in EVE Online's PvP - a gaming purist is after a good game itself, and turning it into a popularity contest undermines the game - unregulated PvP is out while something like Guild Wars matchmaking is ideal. You could argue that there's a certain skill into marshaling players, but chances are the environment is set well before you arrive.

 

[niblik]

Wow, ol BoB is no more... at least in a functioning sense?

Personally, I hated Goonsquad. They would do the most underhanded things to other players and gleefully cost you months or a year of work in the process. I think its sad that Goonsquad was the main architect of BoB's demise.

I have divorced Eve Online for the final time and will never look back. It takes far too much of a time investment to suceed in that game.

 

[NDWolfwood5268]

BUT**, what about the PvP content? Does pwning other ships not appeal to you? Being a pirate and such provides some instant gratification, more often than not, in being a professional griefer, but hey, without pirates, EVE WOULD be completely boring. They keep the rest of us on our toes.

The PvP element would hold more appeal for me, except I see it to be a ridiculously uphill battle. Success or failure in EVE Online is about 98% having the best ship and components for the job (and knowing this when deciding whether or flee or fight) 2% players remembering to turn on the right modules and when.

Consequently, pwnzoring others is really mostly a matter of being better connected with a powerful corporation or having played for a longer time and therefore having better skill levels or ships.

Now, if the game were at least 75% players remembering to turn on the right modules and when to determine success or failure in combat, where a poorly-played highest-technology dreadnought could be defeated by an ace pilot in a frigate, that would be enough for the inner gaming purist to sit up and pay attention. However, the way EVE Online is balanced, there would be a massive uproar if you could lose your credit investment so easily.

What they have is a game where you're terrified to even take your Dreadnoughts for a spin for fear of the time invested to make one, and that's another count against gaming purism for me.

Incidentally, even WoW, despite having some of that initial gameplay appeal, is not quite good enough for me. I bored of WoW when I bored of EverQuest, really - WoW is just a steamlined, computer-friendly version with a little bit of Blizzard in the GUI and a Warcraft paint job. WoW is the McDonald's of MMORPGs: millions served, but it's not 5-star dining for the purist.

Lately, I've realized us gaming purists are a weird bunch. It's like going to a wine and cheese festival and meeting people who find disgustingly moldy cheese and rancid wine to be worth the whole trip of being there because, after decades of consumption, they've found there's a certain aspect about these unlikely sources that embodies what being a true wine and cheese enthusiast is. Yet, the average philistine would be content with a bottle of supermarket red.

Well, just to state the fact, while a frigate vs dreadnought might be idiotic to some degree, frigate, and especially T2 frigate gangs are fierce and can counter many ships below capital level. 2-3 of such ships can successfully outclass battleships and below. So what I'm saying is that it's not who has the biggest ship, it's who has the best plan. It's like chess compared to checkers; a pawn can kill a queen if the opponent sufficiently messes up, or the attacker sufficiently plans.

Still slower paced, but the actual battle is more rewarding immediately and can be very satisfying. I've read of frigates holding battleships at ransom before due to electronic warfare locking down the battleship to where they get bled out.

Don't know if that appeals to you, but just trying to see if I can counter your arguments

 

[geldonyetich]

Well, just to state the fact, while a frigate vs dreadnought might be idiotic to some degree, frigate, and especially T2 frigate gangs are fierce and can counter many ships below capital level. 2-3 of such ships can successfully outclass battleships and below. So what I'm saying is that it's not who has the biggest ship, it's who has the best plan. It's like chess compared to checkers; a pawn can kill a queen if the opponent sufficiently messes up, or the attacker sufficiently plans.

Still slower paced, but the actual battle is more rewarding immediately and can be very satisfying. I've read of frigates holding battleships at ransom before due to electronic warfare locking down the battleship to where they get bled out.

Don't know if that appeals to you, but just trying to see if I can counter your arguments

Well, if it seems like chess to you, I can see why you can find it enjoyable.

To me, the hallowed sacred power of chess as a game would be undermined in this example because some people's pieces are going to be better than others, in addition to having more pieces, through sheer time investment and connections.

If I come to the chessboard to find that the house rules are that players who had been there awhile are allowed to start with five queens on the board while I only get to start in a mini-castle in the corner with two pawns and a rook, I'm going to be one unhappy king.

It probably seems more reasonable to you because you're in with those with the five queens, or at least enough bishops and knights to make do. However, my only chance for a fair competition is to try to join the other players, but it may so happen they don't need or want my petty contribution, perhaps because they're scared that I'll disband their queens as soon as I get the chance.

 

[Count_de_Monet]

My problem with EVE wasn't the time investment, I'm more than willing to invest time in something if it will give back to me, but that my time investment didn't seem to help me. I played for a month, maybe two, and after a while I just couldn't justify playing for much time since every bit of research I needed to do took a week, or more, and after a while I just couldn't find new and interesting things to do with my miniature fleet of well-equipped ships.

I started getting into pirating a bit but I could only really prey on people who were worse off than me. Anyone who had invested more time in the game was far too organized or well equipped for me and my noob buddies to even touch. I can't mine, it puts me to sleep. Losing ships to other pirates provided about 5 minutes of excitement and at least two hours of flying around trying to find the equipment you just lost (which I was happy to buy because I was flush with cash). And no matter how many enemies I killed the only payoff was a little extra money which I wouldn't even be able to use to it's fullest extent for six months...

The politics are interesting and I have a frigate/cruiser/destroyer capable character ready to go if I ever run into a group of people I can get along with who play on Eastern Standard Time and are avid pirates but other than that I just can't occupy my mind to a level high enough to justify spending so much damn time in the game.

I say congrats Goonsquad, they found an inventive way around a problem and managed to completely change the face of an entire game AND advance their own position within the game to epic proportions.

 

[Ninetysixdelta]

Here's a video-ified transcript of The Mittani's address to his fellow goons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvwk4QncSG4

A lot of you folks don't seem to "get" Eve. It cannot be viewed or approached as other MMOs. It is the most purely player-driven mainstream MMO available, but some people don't realize just what an entirely player-driven MMO entails. The economy, the political landscape, the disposition towards this faction or that one--it all shifts according to the actions of the players.

In Eve, there are no safety nets. Nothing is guaranteed. Nothing is sacred or beyond the pale. The cheapest mineral in the game could be worth ten times its normal value for a week, if the market will bear it. If you get scammed, the only recourse is to be more vigilant next time. If you get destroyed by suicide squads in normally "high security" systems, then chalk it up to bad luck. Eve GMs are not babysitters and they are not referees. If a single person manages to attain a position of staggering trust and responsibility within an organization, then he also has the power to bring it down. The failure here was a human failure, not a game failure. As in real life, you need to keep your people happy. The game cannot hand you your system of checks and balances, or else it would be forcing a certain playstyle upon you. This is a player-driven game.

The regular MMO formula of linear progression doesn't really apply, either. The guy who pushed the big red button could have been a week-old newbie, so long as his corporation trusted him with big-red-button privileges--he didn't have to get to level X first, because there are no levels. There is no endgame. There is no "best ship." There are ships that do this, and there are ships that do that. You need a certain set of skills to fly this ship, and an entirely different set of skills to fly that one over there. Players who come into Eve thinking they're going to carve their way to the top all by themselves are delusional. You need other players to make the journey with. Other players are the ones who enable your victories and hand you your defeats. You do not conquer the game, you conquer other players. This is a player-driven game.

What separates the huge super-alliances from the rank-and-file is this understanding. You can only accomplish so much as an individual. You're nobody special, not even if your wallet contains three commas and your ship has all of the best fittings money can buy. Your ship will still explode and you will still have to pay for a new clone just like a newbie who's been playing for only three days. Might makes right, and the guy with the most friends usually wins. Fighting and flying around in spaceships are only part of the game, as these events have proven. There is no checkbox to make a player a spy or a diplomat--this all occurs outside the confines of the game, in the sort of politicking and backroom deals that would feel right at home in a Tom Clancy or John Grisham novel. This is a player-driven game.

 

[DeusFps]

This is why eve is superior to every other mmo.

 

[Andalusa]

Epic. Is all I have to say, they were, like, invincible and always there.
Now the Goonies will take over, way to go BoB.

May he be castrated in real life with a rusty teaspoon

XD

 

[meatloaf231]

Holy... Wow. That's three flavors of nuts. I guess that means the Goonfleet wins.

 

[geldonyetich]

Spoiler

Here's a video-ified transcript of The Mittani's address to his fellow goons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvwk4QncSG4

A lot of you folks don't seem to "get" Eve. It cannot be viewed or approached as other MMOs. It is the most purely player-driven mainstream MMO available, but some people don't realize just what an entirely player-driven MMO entails. The economy, the political landscape, the disposition towards this faction or that one--it all shifts according to the actions of the players.

In Eve, there are no safety nets. Nothing is guaranteed. Nothing is sacred or beyond the pale. The cheapest mineral in the game could be worth ten times its normal value for a week, if the market will bear it. If you get scammed, the only recourse is to be more vigilant next time. If you get destroyed by suicide squads in normally "high security" systems, then chalk it up to bad luck. Eve GMs are not babysitters and they are not referees. If a single person manages to attain a position of staggering trust and responsibility within an organization, then he also has the power to bring it down. The failure here was a human failure, not a game failure. As in real life, you need to keep your people happy. The game cannot hand you your system of checks and balances, or else it would be forcing a certain playstyle upon you. This is a player-driven game.

The regular MMO formula of linear progression doesn't really apply, either. The guy who pushed the big red button could have been a week-old newbie, so long as his corporation trusted him with big-red-button privileges--he didn't have to get to level X first, because there are no levels. There is no endgame. There is no "best ship." There are ships that do this, and there are ships that do that. You need a certain set of skills to fly this ship, and an entirely different set of skills to fly that one over there. Players who come into Eve thinking they're going to carve their way to the top all by themselves are delusional. You need other players to make the journey with. Other players are the ones who enable your victories and hand you your defeats. You do not conquer the game, you conquer other players. This is a player-driven game.

What separates the huge super-alliances from the rank-and-file is this understanding. You can only accomplish so much as an individual. You're nobody special, not even if your wallet contains three commas and your ship has all of the best fittings money can buy. Your ship will still explode and you will still have to pay for a new clone just like a newbie who's been playing for only three days. Might makes right, and the guy with the most friends usually wins. Fighting and flying around in spaceships are only part of the game, as these events have proven. There is no checkbox to make a player a spy or a diplomat--this all occurs outside the confines of the game, in the sort of politicking and backroom deals that would feel right at home in a Tom Clancy or John Grisham novel. This is a player-driven game.

Oh, I get it. Just many of us don't particularly find anarchy for spectacle's sake to be fun in itself. Some will, just not gaming purists.

(Having said that, I can see Goonfleet's motivation to play.)

If you could do this and also make it fun to play then I'd be right on board with that. I'd overlook all the rest and tool around the universe having fun because I'm enjoying myself, and not care if a lot of my progress is lost when I get ganked, because I was having fun and that was the point.

However, the game is not fun to play, and I am, first and foremost, a gamer. Not the reveler in human misery and belittling others that you apparently need to be to enjoy this kind of "player-driven" game, as you described it here, where it's so important to preserve "human failure" that the game needs to take second.

 

[Colonel Rosso]

Would a troll go to all that trouble? No. Occam's razor says one of three things
1) His little brother stole his password and tried to do as much damage as possible\
2) Some "goon" or whatever hacked the account just to cause destruction
3. He got himself a girlfriend and to spend more time with her, destroyed all of his connections to the virtual world.

 

[The Random One]

I won't pretend to have read the entire thread, but here's a message for you:

Always remember it's just a game.

 

[MercenaryCanary]

Sound pretty insane and unfair that one single player can cause such a shit storm.

But it also proves that one man can truly make a difference. This one just brought chaos to his virtual universe, probably for the lulz.

 

[Ninetysixdelta]

Oh, I get it. Just many of us don't particularly find anarchy for spectacle's sake to be fun in itself. Some will, just not gaming purists.

(Having said that, I can see Goonfleet's motivation to play.)

If you could do this and also make it fun to play then I'd be right on board with that.

However, I am, first and foremost, a gamer, not the reveler in human misery that you'd apparently need to be to enjoy this kind of "player-driven" game.

This wasn't performance art; the primary objective of this defection was to inflict harm upon BoB's power structure. The resulting spectacle is just a fringe benefit.

As for "human misery," well, it's a zero-sum game. You can't experience victory without risking defeat. BoB and GoonSwarm have been at each other's throats for years now, and sooner or later something was going to give. What makes the story so compelling is that, for most of that time, GoonSwarm was considered the underdog. Had BoB wiped GoonSwarm off the map, I'm confident it wouldn't have gotten this sort of fanfare or attention, and almost certainly nobody would have given a toss about the goons' perceived "misery," since, hey, they're just goons, right?