Expectations, Relationships, Sex, Thoughts?

[maidenm]

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Why are you turning this into a big men vs women? Men do get abused by their partners, and if someone who was came to this forum for advice, only to be told to "grow a pair" that would be completely disgusting. I don't know what sort of horrible, ignorant person would say such a thing. I certainly wouldn't, and if you would you should be ashamed of yourself. Emotionally abusive relationships aren't a joke. You keep telling me all this crap you've seen 'women' do that has absolutely zero relevance to the discussion. You also don't seem to understand: the vast majority of men wouldn't pressure a woman to look like a porn star- but young women are exposed to these media where women are held up to a certain ideal and they feel insecure, disgusting and inadequate. People with self esteem don't enter abusive relationships, but when you have no self esteem, you think you're hideous and that no one will ever love you, you do.

Furthermore, no one WANTS to shave their legs and wear makeup. Some people lie to themselves and say they do. In reality they just like the confidence they feel when they wear makeup because they believe it makes them more attractive. Of course women don't have to wear makeup or shave their legs but there is enormous social pressure to do so.

Now, I don't know Katatori-kun, but I think he said earlier in the thread that his lack of sympathy for women/men who get themselves taken advantage of are the ones who doesn't do anything about it. And even then he specifically mentioned that this was not about assault, but sexual positions, plastic surgery or any other way the person would alter themselves to please someone else.

Katatori, sorry if it was someone else who said that, but I think it was you.

But that's not what I wanted to say, what I got stuck on was this:

Furthermore, no one WANTS to shave their legs and wear makeup.

I call BS. I call a pile of BS. I can only talk from my own experience and the things I've seen around me, but that's enough to know that what you said is really not true. Some people do get confidence, but not necessarily because they want to be attractive to others. Some do it because they feel better just for themselves, like how wearing a certain shirt makes you more comfortable.
Me? When I first wore make-up I knew it wasn't for me. I did look pretty to others, but I didn't feel right. So I'm not wearing any. First time I shaved my legs I felt strangely better that I had felt ten minutes earlier. It felt like I had taken off a pair of longjhons and I liked the feeling. So now I shave my legs if I find the time. I got no one looking at them and I never wear skirts or shorts, so it's all for me.
So go take your thoughts about what "everyone" thinks about their own bodies somewhere else.

 

[Shock and Awe]

As others already said, pornography reflects society, not the other way around. Now I will say that a lot of younger and less experienced men and women seem to get a little to attached to the "popular" image and say stupid things (like ANY pubic hair being gross on a woman) and need to get a nice hard dose of reality to wake up from it. Though I don't think thats much of a problem for most.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Now, I don't know Katatori-kun, but I think he said earlier in the thread that his lack of sympathy for women/men who get themselves taken advantage of are the ones who doesn't do anything about it. And even then he specifically mentioned that this was not about assault, but sexual positions, plastic surgery or any other way the person would alter themselves to please someone else.

I'm not talking about assault either. You can have an abusive relationship that doesn't involve the threat of violence.

I call BS. I call a pile of BS. I can only talk from my own experience and the things I've seen around me, but that's enough to know that what you said is really not true. Some people do get confidence, but not necessarily because they want to be attractive to others. Some do it because they feel better just for themselves, like how wearing a certain shirt makes you more comfortable.
Me? When I first wore make-up I knew it wasn't for me. I did look pretty to others, but I didn't feel right. So I'm not wearing any. First time I shaved my legs I felt strangely better that I had felt ten minutes earlier. It felt like I had taken off a pair of longjhons and I liked the feeling. So now I shave my legs if I find the time. I got no one looking at them and I never wear skirts or shorts, so it's all for me.
So go take your thoughts about what "everyone" thinks about their own bodies somewhere else.

So you don't like makeup and you don't wear it. Good for you. As for the shaving, would you feel comfortable exposing your legs if you hadn't found an opportunity to shave recently? It's all well and good to say 'sometimes it feels nice'. Yes, sometimes it does, when you know no one will be judging you either way. But what if it were a really hot day and you wanted to wear a skirt or shorts? You say you don't wear them but imagine you did. Would you feel comfortable doing so with hairy legs? I would say an overwhelming majority of women have, at some point in their lives, shaved not for themselves but because they were anxious about how they would be judged if they were seen with hairy legs. If you still disagree I want to live where you live.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I'm not going to believe that without evidence. I've known a lot of women who like makeup because they like the way they look with it.

"I've known a lot of women who like makeup because they are socialised to be vain and they would feel more unattractive without it."

Right, anyway I don't care anymore. You obviously lack even the vaguest understanding of what it means to have body image issues. You say you hold men and women to the same standard, which is apparently that they should just "grow a pair" and "get over" their problems and insecurities. Your standards are absurd and ignorant. You claim that random fucking people whose conversations you overheard are somehow evidence. That shit's weak even as far as anecdotal evidence goes. You don't know what kind of people those women were, or whether their situation was actually making them unhappy. But if you're determined to judge and ridicule people despite knowing nothing of their personality and motivations, go nuts.

 

[manic_depressive13]

But if you're determined to judge and ridicule people despite knowing nothing of their personality and motivations, go nuts.

I actually haven't ridiculed a single person in this thread. You made that up. Don't invent posts I never made just because you don't like my opinion.

You said that insecure people who are led to believe they need to fulfil certain physical standards to be considered desirable are deserving of ridicule:

Women who get such surgeries don't do it because they 'want to look like pornstars'- they do it because they believe such bodies are the norm,

In which case, I think they deserve every bit as much scorn or ridicule as a guy who believes he must have a 12" cock to please a woman.

But you are obviously more concerned with watching scarecrows than making valid arguments so I'm out. What is the point of trying to have a discussion with someone where, when you try to describe the flipside of their claims and the implications of their argument, all they do is claim "But that's not exactly what I said! I said it in a nice way and you said it in a bad way!" Sure my friend.

For someone who is more concerned with semantics than valid arguments, you're pretty quick to twist my words by claiming that I accused you of ridiculing anyone in this thread.

 

[darlarosa]

Why shouldn't a person be insecure if everything around them tells them they are ugly and inferior.

Because "everything" around them doesn't tell them they are ugly and inferior.

It's my experience that when people think something is coming at them from everyone around them, that thing tends to actually be coming from themselves. If a person thinks that everyone else in the world is saying they're ugly, it's probably actually the case that they have a low self-esteem and are looking for ways to justify it.

Why do so many white chicks dye their hair blonde? Because "blondes have more fun"? No. Society tells us that "blondes are superior than dull haired brunettes".

Society doesn't say that. As a man who finds dark hair far more attractive than blond, I know for a fact this is not a universal message. If a woman thinks everyone thinks she's better off being blond, it's because she's only listening to the people who think she's better off being blond. It's her choice.

Why do women( and some men) in India, Africa, and Asia buy bleaching creams? Because lighter is perceived as better and far more desirable.

It's still a choice.

If someone is taught to believe being light skinned, or blonde, or having a "perfect" vagina is superior to everything else then is it really vain?

Yes. Because no one is going around saying, "You must have this vagina!"

On that last thing... its pretty easy to explain...there are nice guys who are guys who are nice, and then there are "nice guys" who think they're being a decent human being entitles them to getting laid. The former are decent human beings who are generally all around nice, and have a mentality where a woman isn't a complete **** when she doesn't want to be more than friends. The latter are self delusional, manipulative, and ,from what I've seen, very much a self-deserving personality. This is why they go "I'm so nice why wouldn't she want to go out with me?" or "why is she going out with that dick instead of me", answer being "Because you never really insinuated romantic intentions, and/or you were only her "friend" because you wanted to fuck her". More often than not "nice guys" think they're "nice guys" but don't see why a woman wouldn't want to date them.

I totally agree. And I believe these hypothetical women who are unhappily influenced by porn are very comparable to the "nice guys". Both groups are people pretending to be something they aren't in order to get what they want. Only you're asking me to feel nothing but sympathy for one group and nothing but contempt for the other. I'm sorry, I'm not playing that game.

It seems like your ignoring the impact society has on the individual and how we interpret the world around us. Just because people don't say something, or the media doesn't say something outright does not mean there is no implication about norms of appearance. Our choices are framed by the world around us. Now I'm not saying human beings don't have free will, but how we act and the choices we make are shaped by both individual personality, upbringing, and our cultures. Choice is actually quite a limited thing. No one has to say "You must have this vagina", anyone with the ability to reason takes in the images and interprets them. Part of that interpretation is a form of projecting how other people see things based on given information. That and in some cultures certain choices don't quite...exist in the minds of people. In some cultures you just don't do certain things unless you want to be continually mocked for it, including when it comes to appearance. In African cultures where it is about attractiveness and marriage big is beautiful and mothers will force feed their daughters so they are large, as teenagers and young women they will gorge themselves because in that culture being skinny or small in any way shape or form is a disgrace. When they grow up they have the choice to stop stuffing themselves, but socially...culturally it never enters their minds. Its just not done.

You mention low self-esteem, but why do so many people have low self esteem? Studies have shown that females in particular have self-esteem issues that correlate with age at higher rates than men. As girls become more aware of their bodies as they develop and internalize societies depiction of the female body, self-esteem declines. Oddly it boosts after age 50 (as my sociology professor put it "general theories state that basically says women stop giving a crap after 50").


And the "nice guy" thing is completely different. Obviously so. External appearance is not the same as behavior. Altering an appearance is not only for the sake of attracting men or women. Nor is it comparable to pretending to be nice to someone to fuck them. If a nose job is comparable to weeks or months of manipulation and emotional decent in your eyes then we have nothing left to discuss. I doubt finding out a girl has fake boobs has the same impact of being lied to about a friendship for any given length of time. Its just not equitable.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Saying something is deserving of ridicule is not the same thing as actually ridiculing it.

What is the point of trying to have a discussion with someone where, when you try to describe the flipside of their claims and the implications of their argument,

You have yet to describe the implications of any of my arguments. All you've done is make up strawman arguments. Don't try to pretend I'm the badguy because I expect you to address things that I've actually said, as opposed to things I only said in your imagination.

Uhuh, and saying "IF you want to ridicule someone be my guest" is not the same as accusing you of having ridiculed someone. Two can play the pointless semantics game that contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Anyway, I'll try to say it in a way that isn't too confusing. I can see how tempting the urge to get defensive and deflect rather than address arguments can be for you. I would posit that people who make cosmetic changes, whether through makeup or through surgery, are inevitably doing it to appeal to other people (this obviously doesn't count in cases where there is a health benefit, such as a breast reduction). There is no reason to change your outward appearance unless you are trying to appeal to others. Claims such as "I'm doing it for myself" are always complete and utter nonsense when the changes are purely aesthetic such as when wearing makeup or, to use the initial example, getting a labiaplasty.

Now, if you asked a woman who wears make up, or has gotten cosmetic plastic surgery on her breasts or vagina, she would tell you something like "I did it for myself/ I did it to feel more confident/ I like how it looks." If you believe such nonsense all I can say is HAHAHA. How on earth could changing your outward appearance in ways that increases neither health nor comfort possibly be for oneself. It is ALWAYS for the benefit of others. They know people judge on appearance and they want others to see them a certain way. People just lie to others and themselves because being vain, wanting to please and to be appealing to others are widely considered a negative qualities associated with low self esteem, so to avoid criticism people claim that they're doing it for "themselves" and not for anyone else.

Yeah. Right.

People are social creatures. Admitting that you want approval, that you want to be considered attractive by others and so on doesn't make you weak or pathetic, and if you are made to understand that the only way you will be desirable is to make yourself more attractive through surgery or makeup that is not deserving of ridicule.

 

[likalaruku]

I think it will give teen boys unrealistic expectations. Men will have experience that teaches them to seperate fantasy from reality.

Also...Women watch porn, out of curiosity if nothing else. Japan makes porn specifically for them. They have Japanese porn comics for women. Those romance novels they sell in stores? Porn.

 

[Nickolai77]

This video is pretty interesting. It lays out many of the effects that porn has on the human brain. Granted, your mileage may vary, but I found it to be worth a watch.


As to whether it alters expectations... I think it could. It depends on the person, really. Not everyone is the same.

When i first watched that about half a year ago it certainly encouraged me to cut back on my usual porn consumption. But, now, looking back to when i was last in a relationship i never had any difficulty "getting it up" and getting aroused whilst being intimate with my girlfriend. And the thing is i watched just as much porn back then as i do now- and it's still the same kind of stuff as well.


I can understand this guys reasoning, but perhaps it only applies to people with addictive personalities? Either that i'm just a lot more virile than the average male

 

[Darken12]

The problem is expectations, period. I might take flak for saying this, but idealised romance is JUST as bad as porn. Saying that the only good sex is passionate, sweet lovemaking between two people who are madly in love is just as damaging as porn. Or, actually, I am going to just come out and say it: it's even worse than porn, because at least porn is shallow. At least porn is purely aesthetic and we all know there's nothing underneath the outermost layer. With this delusion of sweet lovemaking, we are fooled into thinking that there are many layers of emotions and meanings that, in most cases, flat out don't exist (or are merely the byprouct of your brain going through an infatuation-induced biochemical high), and since those layers are not shallow and simple, people waste more time chasing chimeras that they will never find. Once you realise that porn isn't real life, that's it, you're done. You stop chasing something unreal. Realising that the "sweet lovemaking" you've been taught to want is unreachable takes a hell of a long time longer, as excuses keep piling up ("it wasn't the right mood," "maybe he/she doesn't love me," "maybe I don't love her/him," "maybe the spark has gone out," "maybe it just wasn't the right time," "maybe we weren't ready," and so on).

The solution is, of course, stop letting society tell you what you should like and how your sex life should be like. If you like passionless, guilt-free anonymous sex with strangers, don't let society tell you that you're a soulless monster that will never know happiness. If you like tender sappy lovemaking, don't let society tell you you're a whipped loser. And if you don't like either (or like both) then don't let society tell you anything, period.

Let's stop policing each other's sex lives.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I would posit that people who make cosmetic changes, whether through makeup or through surgery, are inevitably doing it to appeal to other people (this obviously doesn't count in cases where there is a health benefit, such as a breast reduction).

And I am not going to accept your opinion without some better evidence, because I know some people who change themselves because they like it. They do it for themselves, not for others.

Evidence? What evidence? This is a purely philosophical question. I'm asking if it makes logical sense to change one's outside appearance cosmetically while claiming it is for yourself and not for anyone else. If something improves neither physical comfort nor health, how can it be for oneself? The only possible reason is that you want to appeal to others. Care to argue against my claim?

 

[Loonyyy]

I would posit that people who make cosmetic changes, whether through makeup or through surgery, are inevitably doing it to appeal to other people (this obviously doesn't count in cases where there is a health benefit, such as a breast reduction).

And I am not going to accept your opinion without some better evidence, because I know some people who change themselves because they like it. They do it for themselves, not for others.

Evidence? What evidence? This is a purely philosophical question. I'm asking if it makes logical sense to change one's outside appearance cosmetically while claiming it is for yourself and not for anyone else. If something improves neither physical comfort nor health, how can it be for oneself? The only possible reason is that you want to appeal to others. Care to argue against my claim?

I do: Case Study: Me.

Done. You can see yourself, and you can want to appear different, for yourself. For that matter, the impression that you make on others can also be a reason you would do something for yourself.

It's ok, apparently I dyed my hair because I want to be seen differently, not because it was something I wanted to see about.

Apparently I work out just so that people like the way I look, not because I want to look a way I like.

Apparently all the effort I've been going to trying to design tattoos is just some pathetic attempt at attention?

Apparently I would prefer different colour eyes, not because I think it looks interesting, and pleases me aesthetically, but because I'm trying to look a specific way dictated by some form of social pressure.

How about not projecting your own insecurities onto the rest of the population? We're all fucked up enough without that thankyou. People do all sorts of things which seem baffling to the rest of us, or normal things, with justifications we couldn't even fathom, and it doesn't mean that they're wrong, or not doing what they want. It means we're all different, and we all think differently, and want different things.

And that bit about "Physical Comfort" or Health, being the only justifications of why you'd change something about yourself, is completely ridiculous. You can enjoy your own appearance, and you can feel that you've attained something by changing it. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say that you can change your appearance for the sake of the reaction of other people, and still be doing it for yourself. It doesn't have to be surrendering to someone's expectations, of what they think you should be, and you can certainly use your appearance to make a statement. And while you may do it for a reaction, it's because the reaction is enjoyable. You're doing it for you, not them. They're merely a tool. It's not the most mature take, and I wouldn't suggest making it an ethos, but it's entirely plausible.

When I wear a fake-blood splattered shirt to give blood, I'm doing it because I get odd reactions, but those reactions make me laugh. When a punk wears a mohawk and a kilt, he's enjoying the effect he has on other people. And yes, some people enjoy the effect that looking more conventionally attractive has on people. One does not have to submit to these ideas, one can use them. It's a completely different mindset.

 

[Callate]

Pornography isn't necessarily "removed" from modern society any more than, say, theater was removed from society in ancient Greece or novels were removed from Victorian England. It reflects it, it may comment upon it (intentionally or not); it may or may not influence and affect it. But it's part of it. Arguably, in the age of the Internet, it's far more a part of society than most people will freely admit.

As far as "reasonable", any problems to my mind come from one of two sources: one, that you may expect your partner to do things they aren't comfortable with (or capable of) doing; secondly, that it may increase the likelihood of unexpected consequences bleeding over into non-sexual parts of one's life. That might take the form of an increased lingerie budget, or never having thought about having to hide bondage gear when your in-laws come over, things that might never had come up had something you'd seen in pornography made you feel unsatisfied with your supposedly sub-standard love life.