Expert Warns of Possible Catastrophic Effects of California Videogame Law

[archvile93]

I still don't understand what all the fuss is about. The rest of the worlds games industrys still appear to be going strong despite the fact that kids can't buy 18 rated games.

Can a kid in the states seriously walk into a shop and buy Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto?

The markets are interconnected; if you take out the largest one, all the others will feel it.

So the games market is being propped up by under aged kids buying games then? hmm

America is such a strange place, seeing all the Tea Party stuff on the news scares the Hell out of me.

No, normally a child can't buy an M rated game without parental consent which is vollentary. However, with this new law, if a game gets sold to a minor the store could be sued off their asses, and you can't have somebody watch every one of your employees to make sure they don't sell to minor. So what's the best way to prevent these sales? Why to stop stocking the offending product of course. So now M rated games are sold virtually nowhere in the states and profits on these games are way down as a result. So how do developers make money again? Why by not making M rated games anymore. You see where this is going?

 

[Agayek]

So 10 year olds can watch the saw movies in your world ? fucking idiot.

Yes. Yes they can.

The only person or persons with a legitimate reason to deny a child the ability to watch any movie they like is that child's parents. No one else. If the parent doesn't think it's a problem, it's not your, mine or anyone else's place to say otherwise.

 

[JDKJ]

So basically what you and the original person interviewed believe is that the games industry only really thrives off the sale of games to minors? That if minors are unable to buy M-rated games that whole market will simply 'collapse'?

First of all, nobody said anything about a "collapse". But it could definitely change and not in favour of high production value M-titles. I personally don't even really care that much, since the big companies haven't put out a single genuinely scary or interesting mature game since Silent Hill 2, but I also don't think that hampering their sales (see below) is the way to go about fixing that.

Second, it's not about selling to minors. It's about retailers having to ask for IDs and having to train and monitor their employees on one more thing, making them reconsider and re-evaluate whether the income from those games justify the administrative overhead AND the possibility of legal punishment if some illegal sales do happen. And the bigger the retail chain, the bigger the overhead and potential fines, therefore the bigger chance that games like Silent Hill will be pushed to some back corner of the shelf, if not dropped completely.

I didnt write collapse as a quotation, i was just emphasising the word considering what some people have been saying makes it sound like a collapse would be inevitable if this law came into effect. I am just saying that it has been blown out of proportion. Why not have a policy whereby the fine is placed on the individual selling the product rather than the retailer? That means that the retailer has no financial worries and merely has to focus on teaching the employee to not sell games to underage children. It took less than 5 minutes for me to be told the repercussions of selling a minor an 18 rated game, and its not exactly hard to ask someone for ID... Other businesses do it all the time, with alcohol and such, why has such a big deal been made of it with video games.

Are you kidding? Who's gonna wanna take a job that pays minimum wage but has the ever constant possibility of being subject to a $1000 fine? Would you?

What do you think basically all retail jobs in the UK are subjected to....? What you may think of being a big deal in the states, that is asking for someones ID and not selling minors 18 rated games, is the norm over here... I just dont see what the fuss is about. I sold games, i didnt sell an 18 rated game to a minor, i wasn't fined £1000. Its that simple.

It's also the norm for the British to rarely brush their teeth. Your point?

That dumb shit ain't flying on this side of the pond. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that there won't be too many Americans interested in employment under those terms. Not when they can just as easily get some other shitty-paying job as a register jockey in some other fine-free industry -- like fast food or apparel retail.

 

[Agayek]

I got one question for you Sweeney: Say I create a rated M videogame, how the hell can I be held responsible if some dick on the other end of the country sells it to a minor?

Short answer: I CAN'T

The law doens't forbid the sale of Mature games, or the manutacturing of Mature games, it forbids people from selling minors a mature game. THe company who created it can't really be held responsible. Even if some lawyer said "They created an advertisement we think targetted minors!" The only question the judge has to ask is "Okay. WHatever, but even if the minor wanted to buy the game, the store worker should have forbid it.

That would be because the developers won't be sued.

The retailers would get sued back into the Dark Ages as soon as they sell a banned game to a minor with an overreactionary parent. This means they'll have to make a judgment call between training employees to never sell to minors, or not to stock the game. Since most companies in this position use minimum wage employees, I find it unlikely they'll trust them enough to be diligent. Thus, the likely response to this bill passing is to stop selling the games at all.

Once that happens, developers won't make any money off them. Thus, they'll stop making games the government doesn't like.

Thus, we have total, blanket censorship of an entire medium.

 

[mjc0961]

Or more likely they will move to other developed economy's and continue to produce video games with M rating for other countries. I am pretty convinced that if the US abandons the lead it has by hobbling the industry the games industry will simply stop selling those games in the US.

Here, I have a clue for you, now you have one.

The US is a huge market for games. If stores won't sell M rated games there anymore, publishers are not going to say "Okay, we're going to sell this game everywhere but America." They are going to say either "Let's dumb this game down so it can get a T rating in the US and it can be sold there" or "let's not make this game at all."

 

[enriquetnt]

if this passes is gonna be just like the movie industry, theyr gonna water down all games to get Teen ratings,(sure cause we cant forbid you to make it because of those silly constitutional rigts well just FORCE you to make it the way we want to, to keep pushing OUR silly outdated morals and hipocritical value sistem) Were gonna end up importing all our games from Canada to get the REAL deal, (pretty much like the japanese have to import all the porn to see it uncensored, cause some stupid law says that ALL genitalia have to be censored regardless of the media or age target) thats the worst kind of censorship when you force the industries that should be free to make what they want, to censor themselves in order to please some BS laws and be able to stay in store shelves, the only ray of hope in the horizon is the rise of digital distribution, taking the store out of the equation, its happening right now but it would be a looooong time before it completely displaces the stores (specially whit games gettin bigger and bigger, the damm GOW3 its over 40 gigs of content and thats not an easy feat to download)

 

[Thick]

Video game restriction, as in the pushing of it into political discussion and policy, is something of a non-issue. It's something EASY for politicians to grab a hold of, focus on, and crusade for. That's to keep them from having to deal with DIFFICULT things like education, immigration, balancing the budget etc.

And all this arguing about responsible parenting is beside the point, because the idea of children not being able to buy mature games is beside the point. Seriously, it's not even close. All you people who are like, "I don't understand the fuss, so what if kids can't buy GTA4." are way off the mark. It's also not whether or not this would be logistically practical to enforce thanks to digital distribution or that all that would happen is talented designers move somewhere else.

What's fundamentally at stake here is whether or not games have first amendment protection. Under this law, it is criminally punishable to sell mature games to kids. The key phrase there is not "sell mature games to kids," it's "criminally punishable". Retailers would be taken to court, probably slapped with a hefty fine, just like if some construction company used aluminum cans instead of rebar. But we're not talking about a place where people work or live, we're talking about an entertainment medium.

 

[Jodah]

I still don't understand what all the fuss is about. The rest of the worlds games industrys still appear to be going strong despite the fact that kids can't buy 18 rated games.

Can a kid in the states seriously walk into a shop and buy Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto?

The markets are interconnected; if you take out the largest one, all the others will feel it.

So the games market is being propped up by under aged kids buying games then? hmm

America is such a strange place, seeing all the Tea Party stuff on the news scares the Hell out of me.

The problem isn't that kids are buying these games. Most aren't able to as it is. The problem is that if this law passes Video games go into the same category as Pornography. If you want to buy porn here, you either do it online or you have to go to specialty stores. Places like Wal-Mart don't stock it. If video games go into the same category it won't be long before the same thing happens.

Furthermore, this law will do nothing to curtail sales of these games to children. Nine times out of ten a store will already deny someone who is underage. Said children then go ***** and moan to their parents who buy them anything to shut them up, then they ***** at the store for not selling it to their children and finally they demand this law because some psycho who just happened to play GTA went and shot up a school. This law merely makes it so the government can fine stores, it does nothing to stop the stupid parent from buying it for their demon spawn.

 

[tk1989]

So basically what you and the original person interviewed believe is that the games industry only really thrives off the sale of games to minors? That if minors are unable to buy M-rated games that whole market will simply 'collapse'?

First of all, nobody said anything about a "collapse". But it could definitely change and not in favour of high production value M-titles. I personally don't even really care that much, since the big companies haven't put out a single genuinely scary or interesting mature game since Silent Hill 2, but I also don't think that hampering their sales (see below) is the way to go about fixing that.

Second, it's not about selling to minors. It's about retailers having to ask for IDs and having to train and monitor their employees on one more thing, making them reconsider and re-evaluate whether the income from those games justify the administrative overhead AND the possibility of legal punishment if some illegal sales do happen. And the bigger the retail chain, the bigger the overhead and potential fines, therefore the bigger chance that games like Silent Hill will be pushed to some back corner of the shelf, if not dropped completely.

I didnt write collapse as a quotation, i was just emphasising the word considering what some people have been saying makes it sound like a collapse would be inevitable if this law came into effect. I am just saying that it has been blown out of proportion. Why not have a policy whereby the fine is placed on the individual selling the product rather than the retailer? That means that the retailer has no financial worries and merely has to focus on teaching the employee to not sell games to underage children. It took less than 5 minutes for me to be told the repercussions of selling a minor an 18 rated game, and its not exactly hard to ask someone for ID... Other businesses do it all the time, with alcohol and such, why has such a big deal been made of it with video games.

Are you kidding? Who's gonna wanna take a job that pays minimum wage but has the ever constant possibility of being subject to a $1000 fine? Would you?

What do you think basically all retail jobs in the UK are subjected to....? What you may think of being a big deal in the states, that is asking for someones ID and not selling minors 18 rated games, is the norm over here... I just dont see what the fuss is about. I sold games, i didnt sell an 18 rated game to a minor, i wasn't fined £1000. Its that simple.

It's also the norm for the British to rarely brush their teeth. Your point?

That dumb shit ain't flying on this side of the pond. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that there won't be too many Americans interested in employment under those terms. Not when they can just as easily get some other shitty-paying job as a register jockey in some other fine-free industry -- like fast food or apparel retail.

LOL! And the majority of Americans are idiotic, obese, racist, incestuous, loud, obnoxious and inconsiderate to anything outside of their country. You can label some stereotypes at me, and ill say some more back at you.

You have missed the point of my argument. People wont be fined the money unless they sell the goods to minors; its not that difficult to comprehend. I am sure that a similar system has been implemented when it comes to products such as alcohol, and its not like there is a massive backlash against that... The term isn't that difficult to comprehend; don't sell a game to minor, don't get the fine. Its simple!

 

[Twilight_guy]

So your whole argument hinges on retailers suddenly deciding that M rated games are dangerous. You know selling alcohol to minors is illegal and can get a store in trouble too yet they still stock it. Why? it makes a lot of money. Game make a fair bit of money too. I think that more programs would go into effect to stop the sell of games to minors (minors will still get them as they still manager to get alcohol despite the law as well) but that the games would still be sold. It seems more likely to me. This means that the only reason retailers would abandon M games is if they become unprofitable and this of course means acknowledging that the sale of M games to minors who they are not recommended for is the only reason these games are profitable and if that's true then I think M rated games can go to hell.

 

[Weaver]

SO kid's can't buy M rated games now, and they won't be able to in the future. According to this article, somehow this equals lost sales.

 

[Danpascooch]

I'm 3 years away from getting an intensive degree in Video Game Development and Design, if this law passes and damages what will soon be my industry, I will go POSTAL.

 

[ssgt splatter]

Fuck, this IS bad.
Let the First Admendment be preserved.

 

[TPiddy]

*Sigh* America, yeah... fuck.

Fixed it for you

 

[TPiddy]

This is not a dire situation. How many people actually got sued for downloading from napster? How many people buy cigarettes for minors and get away with it? It may have an impact on those wanting to make M-rated titles, which can be both good and bad I suppose. On one hand I'm all for less Manhunts and Leisure Suit Larrys, but on the other hand a good GTA or Gears of War is among the pinnacles of the industry.

 

[cobra_ky]

The fact of the matter is that Americans place a much higher value on the freedom of speech than the British do. That's why things like Holocaust denial are legal in the U.S.

*cough* Hello! What? Sorry, just don't know how to respond to that really, seriously, where exactly did you hear that? Just wondering if you actually know many British people at all. The majority of us would likely find such a statement to be rather insulting. Granted, we may not throw a hissy fit on the streets like the French do (nothing to do with freedom of speech, granted) but I can assure you we value or freedom of speech just as much as you Americans do!

Sorry if I insulted you and the rest of Britain. What I meant was that freedom of speech is a much broader concept in America, as it allows for many horribly offensive forms of speech which are illegal in Britain (like Holocaust denial). I'm not saying that makes either country better or worse, I'm just trying to explain why this is such a big deal in American culture.

 

[mr_rubino]

We already knew this, Patty. Who are you attempting to convince with your long-term thinking and your logic?
And of course the little clockwork Euros continue to ask the same question of why this law is so bad when the government already runs every aspect of their lives so well, as they do in every thread about this law and then continuously ignore any answers to.

 

[Kefo]

lol at the huge "OMG COMPANIES WILL FIRE EMPLOYEES AND NO MORE M RATED GAMES" because clearly the huge amount of R rated movies that are put out every year are not stocked by retailers. People wonder why no one takes us gamers seriously. We blow everything out of proportion and act like the end of the world is coming if something horrible pops up against games in general.

 

[fundayz]

Do people honestly believe that stores like Gamestop, Walmart, BestBuy, and Future Shop are all going to just stop stocking M games because of this law?

Stop kidding yourselves. Would game store rather completely and arbitrarily stop selling many of the best selling titles, or simply REQUIRE their employees to card buyers?
The answer is clear.