Expert Warns of Possible Catastrophic Effects of California Videogame Law

[cobra_ky]

This law wont make any difference to anyone.....apart from shopkeepers selling games to underage kids. Thats it. It wont stop you, as a person of the legal age, from buying anything so what is the big deal? Why are people over reacting about this? Unless you are a 13 year old pissed that they can not buy the next Modern Warfare game, i do not see what the big deal is. They will just get an adult to buy there games anyway. Also there is still a big market for 18 certificate games in USA, so i doubt all these companies would risk losing profit from them. An if some shops do stop selling them, then go to a shop that does stock them. I think people are making such a big deal about nothing.

If some stores stop selling them, then profits will go down. If M-rated games aren't as profitable, then fewer will be made. Games which otherwise would have been M will be toned down and released as T instead.

 

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

The fact of the matter is that Americans place a much higher value on the freedom of speech than the British do. That's why things like Holocaust denial are legal in the U.S.

*cough* Hello! What? Sorry, just don't know how to respond to that really, seriously, where exactly did you hear that? Just wondering if you actually know many British people at all. The majority of us would likely find such a statement to be rather insulting. Granted, we may not throw a hissy fit on the streets like the French do (nothing to do with freedom of speech, granted) but I can assure you we value or freedom of speech just as much as you Americans do!

Sorry if I insulted you and the rest of Britain. What I meant was that freedom of speech is a much broader concept in America, as it allows for many horribly offensive forms of speech which are illegal in Britain (like Holocaust denial). I'm not saying that makes either country better or worse, I'm just trying to explain why this is such a big deal in American culture.

If the law being pushed through put a provision on it stating that all ratings will be done as they are currently and the power to fine was given to the ESRB with all/a significant portion of the money taken in by the fines going to the promotion of ESRB material (basically giving the ratings board some teeth), would you be ok with it?

 

[cobra_ky]

lol at the huge "OMG COMPANIES WILL FIRE EMPLOYEES AND NO MORE M RATED GAMES" because clearly the huge amount of R rated movies that are put out every year are not stocked by retailers. People wonder why no one takes us gamers seriously. We blow everything out of proportion and act like the end of the world is coming if something horrible pops up against games in general.

See that? That's the NC-17 rating. It's the rating that comes after R. No major studio in the United States will distribute an NC-17 film because they're so wildly unprofitable.

Do people honestly believe that stores like Gamestop, Walmart, BestBuy, and Future Shop are all going to just stop stocking M games because of this law?

Stop kidding yourselves. Would game store rather completely and arbitrarily stop selling many of the best selling titles, or simply REQUIRE their employees to card buyers?
The answer is clear.

Probably not Gamestop, but Walmart already refuses to sell any CD with an RIAA Parental Advisory on it in the U.S. I completely expect Walmart will stop selling M-rated games if laws like this one ever go into effect.

Also keep in mind that neither MPAA movie ratings nor RIAA parental advisories are backed by law, but even so they have a tremendous impact on profits. Putting the force of law behind video game ratings will be much more dramatic.

 

[Blind Sight]

Sounds like fear-mongering to me, but I'm still in favour of tearing down this law for the sake of free speech.

 

[Verlander]

This law wont make any difference to anyone.....apart from shopkeepers selling games to underage kids. Thats it. It wont stop you, as a person of the legal age, from buying anything so what is the big deal? Why are people over reacting about this? Unless you are a 13 year old pissed that they can not buy the next Modern Warfare game, i do not see what the big deal is. They will just get an adult to buy there games anyway. Also there is still a big market for 18 certificate games in USA, so i doubt all these companies would risk losing profit from them. An if some shops do stop selling them, then go to a shop that does stock them. I think people are making such a big deal about nothing.

If some stores stop selling them, then profits will go down. If M-rated games aren't as profitable, then fewer will be made. Games which otherwise would have been M will be toned down and released as T instead.

Store wont stop stocking them. It doesn't cost extra money to train staff, and knowing big companies, they'll make it part of every staff contract that if the store gets fined because of this, the employee is responsible, either monetarily or some other way. Stores wont give up money, and lets face it, the under 18's market isn't where the most money is

 

[lacktheknack]

Now, to be fair, Teen isn't a death warrant. I mean, look at Shadow of the Colossus, or Psychonauts, or Beyond Good and Evil - oh wait.

Although, if M games aren't available, the sale of T games will skyrocket, right? Maybe games like the ones I mentioned will have a chance, then.

 

[superbatranger]

If this law does pass, hopefully it will just mean retailers will have to ID customers, just like they do with tobacco and alcohol. Quite frankly, I'd rather use however much money this law is probably costing to educate parents instead.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

Movies are protected under the First Amendment. This law would remove similar protection from games, making it possible to pass further laws restricting the creation and publication of all game content. The only form of media that has had its protections stripped in this matter is pornography; therefore if this law passes, from a legal standpoint games are the same as pornography. Each State can then pass laws restricting sales of games (not just violent or potentially objectionable ones - any and all games) in any manner of their choosing.

Movies and music are currently protected, and yet the game industry's own voluntary regulation exceeds their success rates. However, any success against games will then be used against movies and music to remove that protection because of their similarities, even as the differences are being used now in the attempt to isolate games.

 

[fundayz]

Also keep in mind that neither MPAA movie ratings nor RIAA parental advisories are backed by law, but even so they have a tremendous impact on profits. Putting the force of law behind video game ratings will be much more dramatic.

I highly doubt Walmart is going to stop selling the M games just because they are required to check ID. The law will make barely any difference to them, they'll just add another page to their employee manual stating that sale of M games to minors can get them a 1000 dollar fine.

This whole thing is exactly the same as if people were going up in arms because checking ID's for an M rated movie became required by law. It just won't matter a few months from now.

I can guarantee that nothing will happen whether this law goes through or it doesn't.
People will make a fuss for a bit then we'll go back to business as usual.

 

[Xodion]

The fact of the matter is that Americans place a much higher value on the freedom of speech than the British do. That's why things like Holocaust denial are legal in the U.S.

*cough* Hello! What? Sorry, just don't know how to respond to that really, seriously, where exactly did you hear that? Just wondering if you actually know many British people at all. The majority of us would likely find such a statement to be rather insulting. Granted, we may not throw a hissy fit on the streets like the French do (nothing to do with freedom of speech, granted) but I can assure you we value or freedom of speech just as much as you Americans do!

Sorry if I insulted you and the rest of Britain. What I meant was that freedom of speech is a much broader concept in America, as it allows for many horribly offensive forms of speech which are illegal in Britain (like Holocaust denial). I'm not saying that makes either country better or worse, I'm just trying to explain why this is such a big deal in American culture.

I have to correct you here, because I'm not sure where you heard that, but Holocaust denial is not illegal here in the UK. We have pretty good freedom of speech laws here, and at the same time our game stores thrive despite laws fining people who sell games to minors. Nobody cares about adults buying games, there's no stigma from the 18 rating, except the occasional having to be ID'ed. I have to admit, I don't know about how this law will affect the First Admendment, not being American, but the basic principle of making it illegal to sell adult-rated games to kids seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[cobra_ky]

The fact of the matter is that Americans place a much higher value on the freedom of speech than the British do. That's why things like Holocaust denial are legal in the U.S.

*cough* Hello! What? Sorry, just don't know how to respond to that really, seriously, where exactly did you hear that? Just wondering if you actually know many British people at all. The majority of us would likely find such a statement to be rather insulting. Granted, we may not throw a hissy fit on the streets like the French do (nothing to do with freedom of speech, granted) but I can assure you we value or freedom of speech just as much as you Americans do!

Sorry if I insulted you and the rest of Britain. What I meant was that freedom of speech is a much broader concept in America, as it allows for many horribly offensive forms of speech which are illegal in Britain (like Holocaust denial). I'm not saying that makes either country better or worse, I'm just trying to explain why this is such a big deal in American culture.

If the law being pushed through put a provision on it stating that all ratings will be done as they are currently and the power to fine was given to the ESRB with all/a significant portion of the money taken in by the fines going to the promotion of ESRB material (basically giving the ratings board some teeth), would you be ok with it?

No, because the law would still be restricting the freedom of speech, and that's unconstitutional in the U.S. (unless you can prove that M-rated games do irreparable harm to children, which is what California is arguing in the Supreme Court case over this law.)

In the U.S., Movie ratings restrict children's access to mature content without any government intervention. There's no reason video games shouldn't work the exact same way.

 

[MarsProbe]

Sorry if I insulted you and the rest of Britain. What I meant was that freedom of speech is a much broader concept in America, as it allows for many horribly offensive forms of speech which are illegal in Britain (like Holocaust denial). I'm not saying that makes either country better or worse, I'm just trying to explain why this is such a big deal in American culture.

Ahah, I see. Anyway, no need to worry about insulting Britain. We manage to do that quite well by ourselves!

 

[Verlander]

The fact of the matter is that Americans place a much higher value on the freedom of speech than the British do. That's why things like Holocaust denial are legal in the U.S.

*cough* Hello! What? Sorry, just don't know how to respond to that really, seriously, where exactly did you hear that? Just wondering if you actually know many British people at all. The majority of us would likely find such a statement to be rather insulting. Granted, we may not throw a hissy fit on the streets like the French do (nothing to do with freedom of speech, granted) but I can assure you we value or freedom of speech just as much as you Americans do!

Sorry if I insulted you and the rest of Britain. What I meant was that freedom of speech is a much broader concept in America, as it allows for many horribly offensive forms of speech which are illegal in Britain (like Holocaust denial). I'm not saying that makes either country better or worse, I'm just trying to explain why this is such a big deal in American culture.

Holocaust denial isn't illegal in Britain though. The closest we have is "Incitement to ethnic or racial hatred" laws, and the Racial and Religious Hatred Act of 2006. It's not banning of free speech though, it's stopping hatred from becoming violent (which it often can). You DON'T have freedom of speech though. You can't freely threaten the president can you? Freedom is absolute, and your laws aren't. This isn't a dig at your culture, I don't think you should be able to have absolute freedom, but this is how the rest of the world see it

 

[cobra_ky]

This law wont make any difference to anyone.....apart from shopkeepers selling games to underage kids. Thats it. It wont stop you, as a person of the legal age, from buying anything so what is the big deal? Why are people over reacting about this? Unless you are a 13 year old pissed that they can not buy the next Modern Warfare game, i do not see what the big deal is. They will just get an adult to buy there games anyway. Also there is still a big market for 18 certificate games in USA, so i doubt all these companies would risk losing profit from them. An if some shops do stop selling them, then go to a shop that does stock them. I think people are making such a big deal about nothing.

If some stores stop selling them, then profits will go down. If M-rated games aren't as profitable, then fewer will be made. Games which otherwise would have been M will be toned down and released as T instead.

Sorry, i really do not think that will happen. There will always be a market for M rated games, an there isnt really that many of that type anyway when you think about it. They will always be profitable. We have the same law in the UK and the top selling games are alway the M rated ones like GTA and Silent Hill etc. It has made no difference to the figures. What is the American law on dvds? Can a minor buy a horror film? Its a bout being responsible and not selling things that are clearly aimed at adults. This new law is just inforcing something that is already in place. As a parent you should want to have control of what your kid is playing and buying. If you do not mind them playing violent games then this law will not make any difference. But if you do not want your children playing violent games, then as a parent, you have the law backing you up. An anyway, the child will probably get the game by some other means anyway.

So basically, you're telling me that this law won't accomplish anything other than eroding the free speech protections on video games. See why I think this is a bad idea?

Also keep in mind that neither MPAA movie ratings nor RIAA parental advisories are backed by law, but even so they have a tremendous impact on profits. Putting the force of law behind video game ratings will be much more dramatic.

I highly doubt Walmart is going to stop selling the M games just because they are required to check ID. It simply won;t affect them.

This whole thing is exactly the same as if people were going up in arms because checking ID's for an M rated movie became required by law.

I can guarantee that nothing will happen whether this law goes through or it doesn't.
People will make a fuss for a bit then we'll go back to business as usual.

You're right, it's exactly the same as if checking IDs for movies became a law. And people would be up in arms because that's blatantly unconstitutional.

 

[cobra_ky]

I have to correct you here, because I'm not sure where you heard that, but Holocaust denial is not illegal here in the UK. We have pretty good freedom of speech laws here, and at the same time our game stores thrive despite laws fining people who sell games to minors. Nobody cares about adults buying games, there's no stigma from the 18 rating, except the occasional having to be ID'ed. I have to admit, I don't know about how this law will affect the First Admendment, not being American, but the basic principle of making it illegal to sell adult-rated games to kids seems pretty reasonable to me.

Holocaust denial isn't illegal in Britain though. The closest we have is "Incitement to ethnic or racial hatred" laws, and the Racial and Religious Hatred Act of 2006. It's not banning of free speech though, it's stopping hatred from becoming violent (which it often can). You DON'T have freedom of speech though. You can't freely threaten the president can you? Freedom is absolute, and your laws aren't. This isn't a dig at your culture, I don't think you should be able to have absolute freedom, but this is how the rest of the world see it

My mistake. I was thinking of the case of David Irving, who was a British holocaust denier but was sent to jail in Austria.

 

[Agayek]

This is not a dire situation. How many people actually got sued for downloading from napster? How many people buy cigarettes for minors and get away with it? It may have an impact on those wanting to make M-rated titles, which can be both good and bad I suppose. On one hand I'm all for less Manhunts and Leisure Suit Larrys, but on the other hand a good GTA or Gears of War is among the pinnacles of the industry.

It's not about people being sued. If this law passes, it's a pretty safe bet that major retailers will simply stop carrying games deemed "mature", as decided by the government.

That means sales are restricted, meaning less money is made. It's not inconceivable for the profit reduction to be severe enough to make AAA mature titles unprofitable. That means they will no longer be developed.

The entire problem with this bill isn't anything directly tied to the bill itself. The problem is that the bill enables the government to censor the medium at their whim. And censorship is always a bad thing.

lol at the huge "OMG COMPANIES WILL FIRE EMPLOYEES AND NO MORE M RATED GAMES" because clearly the huge amount of R rated movies that are put out every year are not stocked by retailers. People wonder why no one takes us gamers seriously. We blow everything out of proportion and act like the end of the world is coming if something horrible pops up against games in general.

That's because there's no legislation in place to sue the fuck out of a movie theater when they let kids into an R rated movie. The movie industry got together after a few incidents and went "Hey, we really need to stop kids from seeing movies with X, Y and Z because parents are bitching about it." There were no laws passed, and you can't hold theaters criminally responsible for it.

If this bill goes through, it is highly likely large retailers will simply stop stocking games the government doesn't like (which is how it will play out, since the bill also wants to replace the ESRB). Also, it's a form of censorship, and as I said above, censorship is always bad.

If the law being pushed through put a provision on it stating that all ratings will be done as they are currently and the power to fine was given to the ESRB with all/a significant portion of the money taken in by the fines going to the promotion of ESRB material (basically giving the ratings board some teeth), would you be ok with it?

That is actually an acceptable compromise to me. I don't like the idea in any form, but I like this a hell of a lot more than the current bill. At least this doesn't just give the government blanket powers of censor.

Sorry, i really do not think that will happen. There will always be a market for M rated games, an there isnt really that many of that type anyway when you think about it. They will always be profitable. We have the same law in the UK and the top selling games are alway the M rated ones like GTA and Silent Hill etc. It has made no difference to the figures. What is the American law on dvds? Can a minor buy a horror film? Its a bout being responsible and not selling things that are clearly aimed at adults. This new law is just inforcing something that is already in place. As a parent you should want to have control of what your kid is playing and buying. If you do not mind them playing violent games then this law will not make any difference. But if you do not want your children playing violent games, then as a parent, you have the law backing you up. An anyway, the child will probably get the game by some other means anyway.

There is currently no law in the USA (as far as I know) about who can buy any piece of entertainment, with the exception of porn. It is perfectly legal for a seven year old to walk into a store and buy Saw V or whatever. That assumes the store lets them though. I'm not sure on the numbers, but there's at least a goodly amount that will stick to the ratings.

Also, as a parent you shouldn't need the government to endorse a decision. Take some fucking responsibility, monitor your child's activities and teach them how to do the same. Then it's a complete non-issue.

Store wont stop stocking them. It doesn't cost extra money to train staff, and knowing big companies, they'll make it part of every staff contract that if the store gets fined because of this, the employee is responsible, either monetarily or some other way. Stores wont give up money, and lets face it, the under 18's market isn't where the most money is

Except Walmart already doesn't stock games with RIAA parental advisory warnings for fear of litigation. If they're held legally responsible for selling video games to minors, I guarantee they'll stop stocking them. I can't speak for other retailers, but it's highly likely they will follow suit. Gamestop et al might keep stocking them, but I'd give it even odds.

 

[zHellas]

Fantastic. Why do all politicians feel that they can form what is considered tasteful and distasteful for us. This is only about people in power misusing it and in turn depriving good people of something they should already have. Repeat after me: I am free.

So 10 year olds can watch the saw movies in your world ? fucking idiot.

Fantastic. Why do all politicians feel that they can form what is considered tasteful and distasteful for us. This is only about people in power misusing it and in turn depriving good people of something they should already have. Repeat after me: I am free.

So 10 year olds can watch the saw movies in your world ? fucking idiot.

Dont put words in my mouth douchebag. The current laws are fine. Restricting things further will make game developers have to focus more on making their game safe, instead of making the actual game.

You know you two are probably going to get probated/suspended if you don't alter those posts.

OT:

Hopefully we get a chance to voice our opposition to this.

 

[Verlander]

I have to correct you here, because I'm not sure where you heard that, but Holocaust denial is not illegal here in the UK. We have pretty good freedom of speech laws here, and at the same time our game stores thrive despite laws fining people who sell games to minors. Nobody cares about adults buying games, there's no stigma from the 18 rating, except the occasional having to be ID'ed. I have to admit, I don't know about how this law will affect the First Admendment, not being American, but the basic principle of making it illegal to sell adult-rated games to kids seems pretty reasonable to me.

Holocaust denial isn't illegal in Britain though. The closest we have is "Incitement to ethnic or racial hatred" laws, and the Racial and Religious Hatred Act of 2006. It's not banning of free speech though, it's stopping hatred from becoming violent (which it often can). You DON'T have freedom of speech though. You can't freely threaten the president can you? Freedom is absolute, and your laws aren't. This isn't a dig at your culture, I don't think you should be able to have absolute freedom, but this is how the rest of the world see it

My mistake. I was thinking of the case of David Irving, who was a British holocaust denier but was sent to jail in Austria.

No worries, an easy mistake to make. I don't know masses about US law and litigation etc, but sometimes I wonder whether or not an unwritten constitution would be better for the US than the current written one is. I can imagine the idea would go down like a lead balloon however

 

[fundayz]

You're right, it's exactly the same as if checking IDs for movies became a law. And people would be up in arms because that's blatantly unconstitutional.

First of all, something being unconstitutional doesn't necessary make it bad. In fact, i would say right that the constitution should be now seen as a guideline to the principles that provided the basis for the US as a nation, NOT some divine literature that tells us what is wrong and right. Specially considering that the constitution is missing over two centuries worth of CONTEXT.

Socialism and communism can be seen as unconstitutional, yet that doesn't necessarily make them bad.

That being said, people would honestly not give a rat's a** if they made legal age required for M movies. Sure some would complain, but at the end of the day it would not make a difference because most movie theaters already check anyways.