Faith of the Fallen.

[Merteg]

This is a very good book in a very good series, but this thread isn't about that.

What this thread is about is in the book there is a society where they believe they are worthless in the eyes of the "Creator" and human should not make choices based on logic or reason, but on blind faith.

That can lead to a pretty convoluted society all in itself, but there's more.

In their society the businesses must take turns on their jobs, and if you work harder than another person you get fired because your taking their work away. Workplaces must hire people who are horrible at their job so they get income.

If you make any money you must give it all away to people who are lazy and scheming. If you don't give your money away to them they send in a report to the government that you are against humanity, and then the government tortures a confession out of you that you were trying to make everyone fail.

This whole society is like this. With the government trying to give everyone a chance, trying to make everyone happy, their society was horrible. Everyone hated each other and no one could get any work done.

What do you guys think of a society like this?

 

[Lazarus Long]

human should not make choices based on logic or reason, but on blind faith.

That in and of itself isn't exactly bad, but there's more.

Yeah. Yeah, it really is bad. Crossing-the-streams bad.

 

[Merteg]

human should not make choices based on logic or reason, but on blind faith.

That in and of itself isn't exactly bad, but there's more.

Yeah. Yeah, it really is bad. Crossing-the-streams bad.

I didn't want to rock the boat, but I do agree, that is pretty bad.

Nice reference to... Ghost Busters, right?

 

[Alex_P]

What do you guys think of a society like this?

What's there to say, really? Of course it's a bad society: it's nothing more than an overblown and inept caricature of every "collectivist" thing that the author can think of -- religion, communism, altruism, social programs, income taxes, whatever.

-- Alex

 

[CosmicCommander]

If you liked that, read Atlas Shrugged, much of the same thing, grander scale, and gives you a new way to think.

But yes, a Marxist society, implementing 'each according to his ability, to each according to his need' is terrible.

 

[Skeleon]

This is an attempt to destroy any social ideas a democracy should incorporate by exaggerating them to the extreme. With a bit of religious fanaticism mixed in.
Some people (Libertarians) might like this book and use it to criticize unions, welfare, health care and all those "socialist ideas".
I don't like it.
Just from your description.

 

[CosmicCommander]

Skeleton, As an Objectivist, I have to disagree with what you said, I think that if hard working, more intelligent members of society were put at a lower priority that stupid, lazy members, society would be not very pleasent.

 

[Merteg]

In the book the main villains, the leaders of this society, are trying to build a palace for their religious and political leaders. The main character takes advantage of this and uses their want of making a palace so he can by-pass some of those laws and can work hard.

He eventually get's put in jail, but is released some time later. He is forced to be a sculptor. He is very skilled, but is forced to make horrible statues of ugly, disfigured humans being blinded by the Light of the Creator, or being killed by the horrible monsters of the Keeper.

The religious leader wants him to make a gigantic statue that will act as a sun dial. He has a small model, and it is a horrible monstrosity.

The main character instead carves a man and a woman, beautiful, the epitome of human elegance.

He carves "Life" into the pedestal, and something along the lines of "Your life is yours to live, and no one else's". The people are stunned by it. They now know what life is. People crowd around to see it. The main character is forced by the Imperial Order, the government, to destroy it. Richard, the main character, gives them a speech as he destroys it. The people are enraged, they have tried to rebel before, but small scale. Now they all rebel.

You guys should read this series, it's the best I've ever read.

 

[Skeleon]

Of course I don't agree with the system in this book but it's obviously so over-the-top to make any social aspects of democracy look bad, opting for pure free market and elbow mentality.
I don't want communism but I don't want Rapture, either.
And yes, there is a middle-ground and it's called social democracy.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

In the book the main villains, the leaders of this society, are trying to build a palace for their religious and political leaders. The main character takes advantage of this and uses their want of making a palace so he can by-pass some of those laws and can work hard.

He eventually get's put in jail, but is released some time later. He is forced to be a sculptor. He is very skilled, but is forced to make horrible statues of ugly, disfigured humans being blinded by the Light of the Creator, or being killed by the horrible monsters of the Keeper.

The religious leader wants him to make a gigantic statue that will act as a sun dial. He has a small model, and it is a horrible monstrosity.

The main character instead carves a man and a woman, beautiful, the epitome of human elegance.

He carves "Life" into the pedestal, and something along the lines of "Your life is yours to live, and no one else's". The people are stunned by it. They now know what life is. People crowd around to see it. The main character is forced by the Imperial Order, the government, to destroy it. Richard, the main character, gives them a speech as he destroys it. The people are enraged, they have tried to rebel before, but small scale. Now they all rebel.

You guys should read this series, it's the best I've ever read.

Wow. Until you put this up I hadn't realized this was Goodkind (which is odd because the book is just over on a shelf.) That series is great, still need to get the last one.

 

[Zeddicus Zhul Zorander]

um, that's kinda what America is coming to. basically, the society in the book was based off Stalin's USSR. granted, we have quite a ways to fall yet, it seems like the new administration is doing it's best to fall as fast as possible (i.e. strapping a jet pack on). now, to Skeleon, you have a point. there are some redeeming values to some of our social welfare programs. most of them, however, have become programs that inspire laziness in society. yes, there are people who need help from time to time. however, people who are receiving all this help and still not doing anything to rise above their current status (i.e. living the American dream) are bringing the rest of society down with them. and yes, the book does take things to the extremes, but like I said, it was based off the USSR. so, these extremes have existed before. it is perfectly possible for them to exist again. and with the way things are going, I'm seeing America being the country to revisit them.

 

[Merteg]

In the book the main villains, the leaders of this society, are trying to build a palace for their religious and political leaders. The main character takes advantage of this and uses their want of making a palace so he can by-pass some of those laws and can work hard.

He eventually get's put in jail, but is released some time later. He is forced to be a sculptor. He is very skilled, but is forced to make horrible statues of ugly, disfigured humans being blinded by the Light of the Creator, or being killed by the horrible monsters of the Keeper.

The religious leader wants him to make a gigantic statue that will act as a sun dial. He has a small model, and it is a horrible monstrosity.

The main character instead carves a man and a woman, beautiful, the epitome of human elegance.

He carves "Life" into the pedestal, and something along the lines of "Your life is yours to live, and no one else's". The people are stunned by it. They now know what life is. People crowd around to see it. The main character is forced by the Imperial Order, the government, to destroy it. Richard, the main character, gives them a speech as he destroys it. The people are enraged, they have tried to rebel before, but small scale. Now they all rebel.

You guys should read this series, it's the best I've ever read.

Wow. Until you put this up I hadn't realized this was Goodkind (which is odd because the book is just over on a shelf.) That series is great, still need to get the last one.

Topics like this seem to have been pretty popular.

The series is great, I'm surprised theirs so little knowledge of Terry or Sword of Truth.

I've introduced some of my friends to his books and they love them.

 

[SamuelT]

Liked the series, but the Order was a bit overdone. Not everyone of the hundred thousand in the Old World want to live under them. But everyone seemed so willing. It would never hold for that long.

<---Look! Pictures!

 

[Glerken]

What this thread is about is in the book there is a society where they believe they are worthless in the eyes of the "Creator" and human should not make choices based on logic or reason, but on blind faith.

That in and of itself isn't exactly bad,

I'm pretty sure that's very bad.
And many people in our society put faith above reason.
I'm pretty sure that's bad as well.

 

[Merteg]

um, that's kinda what America is coming to. basically, the society in the book was based off Stalin's USSR. granted, we have quite a ways to fall yet, it seems like the new administration is doing it's best to fall as fast as possible (i.e. strapping a jet pack on). now, to Skeleon, you have a point. there are some redeeming values to some of our social welfare programs. most of them, however, have become programs that inspire laziness in society. yes, there are people who need help from time to time. however, people who are receiving all this help and still not doing anything to rise above their current status (i.e. living the American dream) are bringing the rest of society down with them. and yes, the book does take things to the extremes, but like I said, it was based off the USSR. so, these extremes have existed before. it is perfectly possible for them to exist again. and with the way things are going, I'm seeing America being the country to revisit them.

The only way people can become like that is if society has let them.

We did not get to this point because of Bush, but because people like him have been allowed to flourish.

I don't know how good Obama will do. He has made some bad decisions, but some good decisions too.

I think it's up to him to show us what he wants to achieve and how he wants to achieve it.

 

[Merteg]

What this thread is about is in the book there is a society where they believe they are worthless in the eyes of the "Creator" and human should not make choices based on logic or reason, but on blind faith.

That in and of itself isn't exactly bad,

I'm pretty sure that's very bad.
And many people in our society put faith above reason.
I'm pretty sure that's bad as well.

I will edit the first post.

 

[Therumancer]

Terry Goodkind rocks, only had time to read the first book though.

Overall though I think that central point (without having read that book... yet) is very similar to the story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut in theme. One that I'd imagine most people had to read in school.

Simply put a society in which everyone is forced to be equal, those who excel are given devices to handicap them so they won't have an unfair advantage.

Then there is this guy called "Harrison Bergeron" who is so incredibly that the only way to balance him is to effectively keep him in near-perfect isolation. Eventually he bursts his bonds, and he's almost like a super-hero. Then the Handicapper General shows up and guns him down to preserve society.

Of course the irony here is that the Handicappers are of course themselves not handicapped (heh), which is part of the message.

Kurt writes some very liberal stuff at times, but that story made quite an impression on me, and it's one of the reasons why I hate things like affirmitive action, and indeed a lot of the philosophies behind liberalism/sociolism/communism. That is where I see it going, albeit not quite in that (intentionally outrageous, to make the point) form. One of the better criticisms of that ideology I've read in it's way.

>>>----Therumancer--->

 

[Merteg]

Liked the series, but the Order was a bit overdone. Not everyone of the hundred thousand in the Old World want to live under them. But everyone seemed so willing. It would never hold for that long.

<---Look! Pictures!

Very good avatar! Do you know how I can get one like it?

As I am on only Naked Empire, I don't know how the Order will play out.

It seemed to me that any small rebellion was quelled, and the roads Jagang built made that easy. I guess there were enough zealots to join up with the Order they could defeat the rebels.

Plus, I believe Jagang has gifted on his side, at least Brother Narev, to take over the Old World. Even if he didn't have many gifted, the Sisters of the Light did nothing to stop him.

 

[Merteg]

Terry Goodkind rocks, only had time to read the first book though.

Overall though I think that central point (without having read that book... yet) is very similar to the story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut in theme. One that I'd imagine most people had to read in school.

Simply put a society in which everyone is forced to be equal, those who excel are given devices to handicap them so they won't have an unfair advantage.

Then there is this guy called "Harrison Bergeron" who is so incredibly that the only way to balance him is to effectively keep him in near-perfect isolation. Eventually he bursts his bonds, and he's almost like a super-hero. Then the Handicapper General shows up and guns him down to preserve society.

Of course the irony here is that the Handicappers are of course themselves not handicapped (heh), which is part of the message.

Kurt writes some very liberal stuff at times, but that story made quite an impression on me, and it's one of the reasons why I hate things like affirmitive action, and indeed a lot of the philosophies behind liberalism/sociolism/communism. That is where I see it going, albeit not quite in that (intentionally outrageous, to make the point) form. One of the better criticisms of that ideology I've read in it's way.

>>>----Therumancer--->

Reading your synopsis of the early story of that book made me chuckle.

I may have to read it, just to see this profound irony.

 

[Alex_P]

If you want a meaningful critique of utopian communism, look to a writer who isn't a self-professed Objectivist. Folks like Goodkind and Rand so obsessed with trying to weave a grand symbolic philosophical hero-myth that they're altogether incapable of depicting people or societies in a human way. If you don't understand why utopian communism is seductive in the first place (hint: it's not "fat lazy stupid leeches want to steal from the hardworking morally-infallible supermen"), then you're wholly unequipped to write a book explaining why it's bad.

You guys should read this series, it's the best I've ever read.

That... that breaks my heart, man.

-- Alex