Fallout 3 did not ruin the lore established in previous games.

[MaulYoda]

- Why are there Super Mutants in the Capitol Wasteland, and why are they dumber?

Let's go point by point here:

1. For starters, construction on Vault 87 began in 2066 and ended in 2071. FEV was first developed four years after; hell, the Pan Immunity Viron Project, which became FEV, didn't even start until 2073. So how did Vault Tec build a vault that revolved around something that hadn't even been created yet? If that doesn't immediately undermine the existence of Vault 87, then what about the fact that human testing of FEV didn't seem succesful until 2076, at which point the military was told to construct a base, Mariposa, for this purpose. And upon Mariposa's construction in 2077, ALL FEV research was moved there. So tell me why the US government would spend more money reformatting Vault 87 to become an FEV experiment lab (because if it was already built, it had a different role in the experiment, which raises the question why they would change the role to begin with) when they've been spending money on the war with China, the development of a number of technologies, mining what little oil is left, and already built an FEV research center and spent $645 billion on the vaults? Or tell me how Vault Tec got a hold of FEV if it was moved to Mariposa and if it was so secret that even some of the soldiers at Mariposa didn't know testing was going on? I mean, Vault Tec was a big corporation, but so was West Tek (who reluctantly gave up the research as it was), and the military is pretty powerful too. The point at which they would definitely know about it is in February 2077 when FEV research was leaked, but then they'd be months behind Mariposa by the time they got Vault 87 refitted, so what's the point

Let's also remember that Vault Tec wouldn't have had the military prisoners that Mariposa used for human testing. Vault 87 would be empty until the Great War, so how could Vault Tec test any modifications they made to the FEV? What, did they just blindly modify FEV without testing the results on anything before this? That seems stupid, especially when Mariposa was testing and achieving success with the FEV modifications they made, so what would be the purpose of starting from scratch and making inferior modifications? Unless you want to argue that the FEV in Vault 87 is the same as the FEV in Mariposa, but then the super mutants shouldn't be stupid. Vault 87 was full of vault dwellers, people untouched by post-war radiation (the radiation from the nuke outside the vault didn't seep in), and the Master concluded that these kinds of people made for the best and most intelligent super mutants; that's why he was going after Vault 13. So if Vault 87 used this strand, the super mutants in Fallout 3 should all look the same as those in the first two games and New Vegas, as well as be incredibly intelligent. But that's not the case

So what is it? Did they used the same strand and it's inconsistent with how FEV works? Or were they given the base strand that Mariposa received before modifications were made and asked to modify it themselves, which wouldn't serve much of a purpose, not to mention they did a horrible job? Of course, them doing a horrible job would result in the mutants being stupid, but they're even less intelligent than the least intelligent of mutants in the first two games. So how do the Vault 87 mutants form an organized fighting force, train themselves in weapon use, replicate the FEV transformation process with captives, and do it all without an intelligent leader like the Master in Fallout 1 or some intelligent super mutant (because they lock up Fawkes)? Speaking of Fawkes, why is it that he has been a super mutant for 200 years and yet hasn't grown to behemoth size? And why specifically did he retain his intelligence? Fallout 1 explains why some mutants are more intelligent than others, but Fallout 3 really doesn't

And as a final nail in the coffin to all this, there was a similar idea in FOBOS with the Secret Vault, and it's not canon (nor should it be). But suddenly, the same idea is canon just because Bethesda did it? Shouldn't they, you know, not do the things that FOBOS did? And hell, the Secret Vault actually (amazingly) made MORE sense than Vault 87

But anyway, that's the super mutant thing. I'll get to the other questions in a second post because this was very long

 

[Zenn3k]

1: Wasn't well handled, but it did work for what it was designed for...basically, allowing you to pretend to be of the opposing faction to sneak in somewhere.

Yeah I loved being able to walk around in a full suit of T-51B power armor that covers my face entirely without the NCR getting angry, despite the fact I could easily be a BoS member who just covered the symbol up, but the second I put on Caesar's armor, which doesn't cover my face, they attack me, apparently forgetting who I am.

2: You mean like a giant green and gray landscape with maybe 1 interesting location?

You mean like the Mojve wasteland? yeah

Good thing the Capitol wasteland had places like
-The Dunwich building
-The Citadel
-Paradise falls
-Megaton
-Arefu, the cannibal town

3: DT exists in FO1, FO2, FOT, and FO:NV. Fallout 3 is the odd man out. DT is part of Fallout. Might as well tell them to remove Nuka Cola.

Lol comparing DT to Nuka cola, that's rich, no really you deserve a medal for that because of the lulz.

4: Half? You're only "railroaded" until you deal with Benny, which takes about 10 hours if you do everything you can along the way, but can be accomplished in 1 if you just run straight for Vegas...btw, there is a path you can take directly north that avoids all the nasty critters like Deathclaws.

-The entire bottom half of the map is one giant railroad.
-that's 10 hours to much
-I shouldn't have to use an exploit path to get around bad game design.

5: They did the same thing in FO3 until people complained and they changed it in the DLC.

Yep Bethesda learned from their mistake, Obsidian didn't

6: FO3 had better vaults. Otherwise, Vegas had more interesting locals, but thats just opinion.

I don't remember a single place in New Vegas that matched the dunwich building, or The Citadel, or Old Olney

I'm not gonna re-edit all this properly, its 1:20 am and I'm tired.

1: K, I kind of agreed with you in the first place. Regardless the faction system kicked the shit out of the boring Karma system in FO3. Oh, you stole some stuff, I guess you're a evil person...here the evil ending for you, stealer!

2: So all it takes to impress is some tall walls eh? The wasteland should look like a wasteland, desolate, and that usually means brown and dusty. You don't think wasteland without thinking "Road Warrior". The dunwich building looks just like the RobCo HQ to me, I see little difference. Paradise falls? Really? Generic town #248? Whats impressive about this place? Arefu was the vampire town, or rather, where the vampires were attacking. Anyway, only thing I liked about the Capitol Wasteland was exploring The Mall. Seeing as its only about a 2 hour drive from me. Megaton is incredibly ugly, especially from the outside, its worse than Vegas with its ugly walls.

3: Your complaint about DT was just as bad. DT is bad, but DR is somehow perfectly designed? DR made the game too easy. DT allows for difficulty.

4: Oh please. The entire bottom of the map is not railroad. There is a ton of things to do along the way, Novac and its quests for instance, Route 188. Yes, 10 hours of a game you can easily spend 50+ in and not do everything...thats obviously half the game, not to mention you are questing, leveling, and earning caps all along the way. Who said exploit? Go to Hidden Valley, go past Blackrock Mountain, go east a bit to avoid aggroing the death claws...home free. You wanna talk bad game design, being an unstoppable god before you hit level 10, thats bad game design. I like having areas in the game that can actually be challenging and allow me to see if I can figure out my own solutions.

5: Why is waiting until you've done all you want to do before you do the last mission that clearly warns you that you cannot go back...such a problem?

You seem to want a lot more hand holding in your games than I do. Lets agree to disagree, I need to go to bed.

BTW - New Vegas has a higher user rating score than Fallout 3 does. 8.1 to 7.9

As well, most of the low ratings came from the number of bugs in the game, almost every review with a low score mentions "buggy" a few times, from a generally accepted buggy engine. Most of the glaring bugs have been worked out long ago.

 

[SajuukKhar]

1: K, I kind of agreed with you in the first place. Regardless the faction system kicked the shit out of the boring Karma system in FO3. Oh, you stole some stuff, I guess you're a evil person...here the evil ending for you, stealer!

The faction system was poorly handled, and the ending sliders in New Vegas were determined BY YOUR KARMA. Steal shit from people = bad ending in New Vegas also.

2: So all it takes to impress is some tall walls eh? The wasteland should look like a wasteland, desolate, and that usually means brown and dusty. You don't think wasteland without thinking "Road Warrior". The dunwich building looks just like the RobCo HQ to me, I see little difference. Paradise falls? Really? Generic town #248? Whats impressive about this place? Arefu was the vampire town, or rather, where the vampires were attacking. Anyway, only thing I liked about the Capitol Wasteland was exploring The Mall. Seeing as its only about a 2 hour drive from me. Megaton is incredibly ugly, especially from the outside, its worse than Vegas with its ugly walls.

A nuclear wasteland should look like a nuclear wasteland, not a fucking normal desert that I could drive an hour and reach.

-The Dunwhich building had its ghost thing, and all the Lovecraftian/Cthulhu stuff in it.
-Paradise Falls had a vibe to it, the first thing you see when you approach it is some guys head getting blown off by an explosive collar, when that happened, you knew this was the place the badass raiders lived.
-I was actually thinking of Andale, that was the cannibal place.
-Not to mention Tenpenny tower, a tower owned by a crazy guy who wants an entire city nuked because it obstructs his views, that guy was such a douche, but a memorable one, and you can get everyone killed by a bunch of Ghouls.

New Vegas had
-Goodspringes, a normal town
-Primm, another normal town
-Novac, a normal hotel
-Nipton, a on fire normal town

Even the homes of the biggest bandit groups, the friends and the Powder gangers were
-A normal looking prison with nothing special about it
-A vault that looks trashy, but otherwise normal

everything about New Vegas's locations was... normal.

3: Your complaint about DT was just as bad. DT is bad, but DR is somehow perfectly designed? DR made the game too easy. DT allows for difficulty.

The problem with DT in New Vegas is that it makes better armor useless, heavy armor like the t-51B power armor was no better then a good set of light armor because DT ensured you would ALWAYS take 15% of the damage

Damage threshold in the original Fallout's worked because you COULD entirely negate damage with a high enough rating.

Damage Reduction in Fallout 3 worked more like Damage Threshold in Fallout 1 and 2 then Damage Threshold in New Vegas did.

4: Oh please. The entire bottom of the map is not railroad. There is a ton of things to do along the way, Novac and its quests for instance, Route 188. Yes, 10 hours of a game you can easily spend 50+ in and not do everything...thats obviously half the game, not to mention you are questing, leveling, and earning caps all along the way. Who said exploit? Go to Hidden Valley, go past Blackrock Mountain, go east a bit to avoid aggroing the death claws...home free. You wanna talk bad game design, being an unstoppable god before you hit level 10, thats bad game design. I like having areas in the game that can actually be challenging and allow me to see if I can figure out my own solutions.

Spoiler

everything in red are areas your not supposed to go to until you level up and backtrack, which is to say most of the bottom half of the map.

And again, I shouldn't have to use an exploit back path to get around a monster barrier that your not supposed to get around, because monster barriers are fucking pointless.

5: Why is waiting until you've done all you want to do before you do the last mission that clearly warns you that you cannot go back...such a problem?

Because it is, 100%, entirely unnecessary to end the game there.

You seem to want a lot more hand holding in your games than I do. Lets agree to disagree, I need to go to bed.

You want to talk about hand holding?

You mean like New Vegas that held you hand for most of the game?

Were every step you took for the first 10 hours was a carefully planned little trainride set up by the developers?

Compared to Fallout 3 which told you "GO WHERE YOU WANT AND DO WHATEVER YOU WANT" the moment you stepped out of the vault, New Vegas was the hand holding KING.

do you even know what hand holding is?

 

[MaulYoda]

-The BoS on the East Coast are way too soft

-Jet in DC, when it's a west coast creation

-Vault doors open differently

-The Uniforms for the Vault dwellers seem to be made of cloth when in FO1&2 it was more like latex.

-East Coast considerably primitive compared to the West.

-Why are there Enclave in the Capital wastes when they were irradiated a little after the FO2 storyline by NCR and BoS forces.

2. To Bethesda's credit, they explained why the BOS were soft. It's just that the reasoning didn't make a lot of sense. I mean, Lyons is trying to help people by fighting the super mutants, right? Well, instead of sending his soldiers out to die in battle and wasting resources, why doesn't he hoard everyone up in the Citadel and focus on Liberty Prime? I'm pretty sure that would get it running much faster, and then he could use it against the super mutants. Plus, fixing Liberty Prime would help the BOS by giving them technology, so it wouldn't piss off the Outcasts

Or, why doesn't Lyons do some scouting, conclude Vault 87 (whose location is listed on the giant map in the Citadel) is the source of the super mutants and attack it. Or at least conclude it's an area of high super mutant activity and attack it, discovering it's the source in the process. And hey, wouldn't the GECK that the terminal in the Citadel says Vault 87 has be a reason to check it out anyway? And couldn't that also lead to Lyons discovering the source of the super mutants, destroying it, and acquiring a piece of technology that could also be used to help people? Wouldn't that be better than just sending his troops in random assaults (in T-45d power armor no less, not the vastly superior T-51b armor that they'd have brought over from the West Coast) or fixing a radio station and generally wasting resources, causing a schism amongst his followers, the West Coast BOS to cut ties, and undermining is whole effort? I think it would

There's also some issue with the BOS being in the East Coast in the first place given their state by Fallout 2, but that's another issue

3. Because McDonald's is a giant franchise, and we live in a globalized world where giant franchises can spread to other countries. By contrast, jet was a local drug, and although it was quite popular in Fallout 2, the death of its creator and cures for addiction curbed the jet craze, so it didn't spread that far. Not to mention that the East Coast is severed from the West Coast, so communication between the two isn't normal. So something like jet, a post-war drug developed on the West Coast, wouldn't reach the East Coast (and certainly wouldn't be found in vaults like it was in Fallout 3; you can call it sorting error, but I didn't see it in New Vegas). Not to mention no one on the East Coasts seems to know how to make it. I mean, that ghoul who makes ultrajet doesn't have a brahmin (you know jet is the fumes from brahmin s***, or chemicals in the fumes, right?). And no, the Wasteland Survival Guide shouldn't be in New Vegas either, but I'll take that as an unnecessary/forced shout-out to Fallout 3 fans, as they didn't get many in New Vegas; doesn't excuse it, but I think there were other reasons for it rather than ignoring canon

4. This one is kind of stupid, I agree. I mean, they're supposed to be the older models from what I've read, so changes could've been made to the mechanism when constructing newer vaults. Although the vaults in Fallout 3 are numbered higher, so they should be the newer vaults, but then why would they use the older door mechanisms? I don't know, but that's not my problem with it. I think my problem with that and a lot of the other smaller aesthetic changes in Fallout 3 (like how the mole rats or the plasma rifle look) was that they seemed like overkill. Bethesda had already distanced themselves from older Fallout fans and changed a lot about the games we loved, and each one of those small aesthetic changes just seemed like it was done in further spite. I'm not saying it was, and they do have reasonable explanations (different mole rat species or plasma rifle model for the examples I gave), but they didn't seem necessary. So could Bethesda have changed the door mechanism and given a reason as to why it was different? Sure. But could they have just made it look the same as it was in the original Fallouts without it affecting the game whatsoever? Yes. But in short, I have no problem with this, it just seems unnecessary, and it comes off like it might've been done in spite as such

5. This one was also stupid. I mean, the vault suit only appeared as a sprite, so can you really tell without using the examine option (and I don't believe you could examine the vault suits that way in either game)? And yeah, the vault suits in Fallout 3 have more details, but it's also a more detailed game. So I'd say my same argument about the door mechanisms applies here, but this one seems like more of a stretch

6. I mean, we're talking about the same country, not different ones, but primitive isn't really the right word. I'd say that Fallout 3 looks more destroyed than it should at this point in the timeline; the game takes place 200 years after the Great War, yet it looks like it has only been about 50. I'm not saying it has to be equally as restored as the West Coast was by this point, but more progress should have been made (especially since that's the path the series had been going with), and it should've been comparative. Then again, a lot of the characters in Fallout 3 are pretty stupid, so maybe not (although that's a result of Bethesda's writing). You could call it a difference of circumstance, D.C. was no more or less destroyed than L.A., is also dealing with raiders and super mutants (both of whom are less organized, less efficient, and less intelligent than their West Coast counterparts, and shouldn't be as much of a problem as such), and had access to a lot of the same pre-war tech (and the East Coast didn't have the BOS hoarding it either). So either the East Coast is behind the West Coast because Bethesda didn't follow the progression of the series or because the wrote so many of the characters to be idiots

7. I completely agree that a small contingent of Enclave troops could've fled eastward, eventually reaching D.C. if they made it that far. But we're talking about a SMALL contingent. A small contingent that would be stripped of most of their resources after the destruction of the Oil Rig and the seizing of Navarro (namely vertibirds). And a contingent that would be pretty old by the events of Fallout 3, which took place 35 years after Fallout 2. So if the average age of Enclave soldiers who were around for Fallout 2 was between 25-40 let's say, they should be between 55-70 by Fallout 3. And based on all of this, they could've played the same small role in Fallout 3 as they did in New Vegas, which is the role the Enclave should play at this point

But they didn't play a small role, did they? The contingent in Fallout 3 isn't exactly all that small. In fact, I'd say they're pretty on par with the Enclave in Fallout 2 (which they shouldn't be). And while Raven Rock could've had some vertibirds lying around (with gun turrets, which the vertibirds in Fallout 2 didn't have), it was a small base and wouldn't have too many. The Oil Rig was their main base with most of their resources and Navarro was their biggest base on land, so they shouldn't have such an abundance of vertibirds and other resources. On the other hand, of all the resources they should have, the vastly superior advanced power armor found in Fallout 2 and that they should've brought over would be one of them, but it's not (and then they develop the "superior" Hellfire power armor, which is still inferior). And wouldn't you say they're all quite young? I'm not saying that the Enclave couldn't have had children that grew up in the 35 years between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3, but the fact that they're all pretty young seems a little odd. I mean, what, did the Enclave just have daily orgies in order to repopulate their numbers, let alone have enough children that the Enclave would be entirely composed of youthful members. And why aren't there any older members in the Enclave. Some might've died of old age, sure, but all of them? And not all of them were that old. "Well," you say, "Then maybe the Enclave was made up of members who weren't 'that old' and not all children." Well then the Enclave should still be a small contingent of survivors, not a large one

Let's also not forget that New Vegas is not Fallout 3 (and thank god for that). The Enclave in Fallout 3 isn't any less dark in their motives. They haven't abandoned their goals, or are struggling with loyalty to a cause vs. personal views. They're just genocidal a**holes who are trying to make the world safe for "humans" again. Albeit, not the morally conflicted ones in Fallout 2. In Fallout 2, they were led by a human. A human who indeed had to weigh what they were doing and chose the option they felt best. So when President Richardson said he wasn't entirely happy with what he had to do, it was somewhat believable. And the fact that you could convince Dr. Curling to see the error of his ways (as Richardson was quite steadfast in his) meant that perhaps there was some dilemma amongst the Enclave. But the Enclave in Fallout 3 is led by a computer. A computer who is just replicating Richardson's choice without all the reasoning. A computer who, even as an AI, can't entirely comprehend morality the same way humans can, so there's not as much of a moral dilemma. And followers that are still quite committed to what the Enclave is doing. And the Enclave is doing the same exact thing they did in Fallout 2

Speaking of which, according to Dr. Curling, was the only way to stop the Enclave from ever resuming its research on FEV that was to be used in "cleansing" the world was to completely destroy them (or cripple them beyond rebuilding anyway). Dr. Curling said to do this, you (or he) should release the FEV toxin into the Oil Rig filtration system, killing everyone on board, but then told you to shut down the reactor, which would destroy the Oil Rig (and you were going to do anyone, which would also kill those on board). And Dr. Curling was a smart guy and a high-ranking official in the Enclave, so if he said this was going to stop the Enclave from resuming the research (or rebuilding), it was going to stop them. But it didn't do either. The Enclave came back in Fallout 3 AND had Dr. Curling's research. Albeit, they decided to use water to spread it this time, instead of using the jet stream like Dr. Curling was going to. I mean, it's not like if they had just used the jet stream, they could've remained in hiding and carried out their plans without anyone knowing and been, you know, successful. Oh wait, it is

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Because they're not the same Super Mutants that were created by the Master on the West Coast. The Super Mutants in FO3 are all an experiment from Vault 87 that didn't produce the same results as their West Coast counterparts, hence why they are dumber and and tend to grow in size over the years becoming behemoths.

Prior to F3, there was no indication that FEV research was being conducted parallel with the vault experiments. It was crowbared in to justify the presence of a classic enemy. Strange choice considering other options existed (Geckos for example).

It isn't a plot hole so much as an obvious retcon.

Here's another complaint I see all the time on forums like NoMutantAllowed and one that's also made me question whether these people really ever played FO3. Because it's very well explained in detail how the leader of the East division of the BoS (Lyon) had decided to abandon many of the BoS ways in favor of taking on more humanitarian ways. And if you look into the BoS Outcast, you'd see it wasn't exactly a favorable decision by everyone.

The BoS has seen plenty of suffering of greater proportions that what was seen on the coasts and they did not abandon the mission. The closest example prior was in Fallout Tactics but this was simple necessity.

How would I explain this? I don't know? How do you explain McDonald's in China when it generally an American creation?

Your example is explained by the simple fact that McDonalds was transplanted in China. China did not independently create a chain with the same name and menu.

Given that traveling across the country is a difficult affair in the fallout universe in the best of times, transporting the drug east seems like a long shot. Sure they might independently discover the same drug but to then also call it jet? That's implausible enough to call impossible. Still, that's a fairly minor point to quibble over when it comes to plot holes.

Are people seriously complaining about this? You do realize that when it comes to construction, different models and layouts would be used to suite the lay out of the land and enviroment. Plus, there's never "one model to rule them all" in any form of product. Is everyone's PC the same? Do we all use the same video graphics card? Does everyone have a screen door with a mail slot on their front door? NO!

Mass production implies uniformity. These were all produced by the same company, at the same time, for the same purpose. Still, though it is a valid complaint it again seems fairly silly.

-The Uniforms for the Vault dwellers seem to be made of cloth when in FO1&2 it was more like latex.

/facepalm

Really? Gamer's are complaining about this? I think my answer for the vault doors can pretty much explain this.

The material is actually leather if F:NV is to be believed.

Okay, has anyone that's making these complaints ever read a history book before? Because I don't know if they've ever noticed but not all civilization advance at the same pace.

In 200 years, the remains of humanity in the DC wasteland had managed to do nothing more than scrape small shelters from the scrap. They did not build a single new thing. In fact, they did not advance an inch from where they started after the bombs fell. In that same span of time, the the US went from a few million people on a narrow stretch of land between the mountains and the coast to a nation of hundreds of millions, cities that were home to millions, highways, and a thousand new inventions in between.

Are we to believe that in this time humans on the coast, the most adaptable animals around, were so slow to progress that it is literally imperceptible?

The problem here isn't that it ruins lore. It simply defies logic. F3 would be a good representation of the world a few years after it was relatively save to move in the wastes, not a few centuries.

In the lore, it's been stated that the Enclave shortly after FO2 storyline were hunted down by NCR and BoS troops. And even though FO3 has in many ways gone back to rewrite this to suit their interest in bringing back the Enclave, I'm not completely against the idea either. Truth of the matter is, how can anyone really completely irradiate an entire group or organization to begin with? There's always something left behind.

The events occurred in F2 where the player nukes the main base of the Enclave. Few survive the hunt conducted against them following this event. Those that evaded capture (five were known to have done so) either integrated into the NCR or lived on the fringes of society. It seems fairly clear to me that the Enclave was, in effect, wiped out.

But, there is of course the possibility that those on the east coast were a different faction. Clues indicate that cross nation communication isn't possible (thus sending ED-E with data rather than using any of other system, also the intra vault communication system failed according to Fallout Tactics). This leads to a similar problem as Jet: it might exist independently but to coincidentally name it the same thing? That's a stretch.

So I totally except the idea that a contingent group was sent out far from NCR and BoS reach to reestablish a new order, also explaining why over the years they had changed in being less dark in their motives and interests.

The motivation of the Enclave in the second game does not support this hypothesis. The enclave were attempting to modify the FEV so that it could wipe out mutants (thus why they kidnapped your village chums). The desire was to create an airborne strain that could wipe the map clean so to speak leaving the Enclave (and some vault dwellers presumably) to reclaim the nation. This demonstrates some notable things: first, that their power was no all that great or else they would just seize by common force and second, given that Maripossa was the home of said research, they had no real motivation to go looking elsewhere as they had everything they needed at hand.

That the Enclave of the third game attempted more or less the same thing does not support the notion of continuity; it simply demonstrates that the plot was recycled. Attempts to explain away this point are met with problems. First, that if the west coast enclave had access to this data, it implies that significant elements of the enclave and their research were able to escape the west coast, travel across the US (a journey that is fantastically hazardous) and effectively co-opt a parallel group that has spent 170 years apart - an all but impossible scenario given the near totality of the destruction of the Enclave. Alternatively, it means that there is some mechanism of communication between east and west that is otherwise ignored time and again across the entire franchise. No matter how you slice it, the Enclave on the East Coast is a problem that F3 has in general. The game, though mechanically different, is a fallout game because they followed the Fallout formula specifically. Rather than making a game set in the fallout universe, they made a game that just lifted bits of fallout and put it on the east coast for a change.

That doesn't undermine the game, really. Hell, I'd wager that only a fraction of those who played F3 played the prior games.

 

[SajuukKhar]

First, that if the west coast enclave had access to this data, it implies that significant elements of the enclave and their research were able to escape the west coast,

As I recall Eden specifically says he was built to monitor Enclave bases across the country, he probably had access to computer systems around the US from various enclave bases, explaining how he could get the FEV data with ease.

Also just because Eden could send a message to the west coast, telling them to come east, doesn't mean the west coast could send a message to him. There need not be any sort of cross country communications systems.

The BoS has seen plenty of suffering of greater proportions that what was seen on the coasts and they did not abandon the mission. The closest example prior was in Fallout Tactics but this was simple necessity.

And yet we see people like Veronica in the original BoS, and even McNamara admits he knows they NEED to change or else they will die out.

Even the most zealous people of the real world crack under enough pressure, all that's left is to see how much pressure it takes for the BoS to crack, and from what we see in New Vegas, its getting close.

 

[MaulYoda]

3: DT exists in FO1, FO2, FOT, and FO:NV. Fallout 3 is the odd man out. DT is part of Fallout. Might as well tell them to remove Nuka Cola.

Lol comparing DT to Nuka cola, that's rich, no really you deserve a medal for that because of the lulz.

5: They did the same thing in FO3 until people complained and they changed it in the DLC.

Yep Bethesda learned from their mistake, Obsidian didn't

6: FO3 had better vaults. Otherwise, Vegas had more interesting locals, but thats just opinion.

I don't remember a single place in New Vegas that matched the dunwich building, or The Citadel, or Old Olney

1. Mechanically, DT has been as important to Fallout as Nuka Cola as been as an item in almost every game (except FOBOS...f***ing FOBOS). It's not like DT is SPECIAL or Nuka Cola is power armor though.

2. It wasn't a mistake to make the game end like, you know, most other RPGs/games in general/movies. Because if you're going to have a post-game, it should show the impact of your choices. Obsidian wanted to do this, but there were too many choices and outcomes to account for. And if you can't, better not to do it than to screw it up and do a hollow one (like Broken Steel). Maybe at best, you don't really make a post-game and instead make a joke out of it or you make it optional like in Fallout 2 (where a little box pops up and asks you if you want to keep playing, which there isn't much reason to). On the other hand, Fallout 1 didn't have this and it ended VERY well. But regardless, if you're not doing a post-game because it's not worth it, then reloading a save is the same as playing after the ending. But you know what would've been nice in Fallout 3's ending? An ending slideshow showing the consequences of all of my major choices and allowed me to envision the future wasteland that I had sculpted. You know, like Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas did (and did VERY well). But nope. I don't know the future consequences of my actions and how things will play out as a result, and Broken Steel didn't showcase them either. So much for feeling important

3. Vault 11 was better than all three, and certainly better than the Dunwich Building in terms of atmosphere and story. The Dunwich Building was fine, for the record, but Vault 11 was still better. I don't know what you saw in Old Olney. Ooh, deathclaws, wow. Fighting them in Quarry Junction and the Deathclaw promontory was more challenging and just as fun (if not more fun because it wasn't so easy). The BOS in New Vegas was done much better and more consistently than in Fallout 3, so I found the Hidden Valley Bunker to be better than the Citadel

I'll say this though: both games had good locations and bland locations. Fallout 3 had an empty power station for every Dunwich Building, and New Vegas had an empty shack for every Vault 11. That's the double-edged sword of games this big. This is as opposed to smaller games like the original Fallouts (albeit, smaller in size, but the map covered a much larger area), where there were only a dozen locations but all were great. Still, when it came to the towns in general, I thought New Vegas was better

Your complaint about DT was just as bad. DT is bad, but DR is somehow perfectly designed? DR made the game too easy. DT allows for difficulty

FO3 had better vaults. Otherwise, Vegas had more interesting locals, but thats just opinion.

1. DR was actually in the original Fallout games in addition to DT. Except when separated, DT worked on its own while DR didn't. Why? Because on its own, an amount deducted from damage made more of an impact than a percent deducted from damage, so DT could add RPG mechanics to the combat on its own while DR really couldn't. So although both have always been a part of Fallout, DT ended up being more important, as evidenced by New Vegas. Point being: I agree with you, I'm just adding some more context

2. Really? A lot of the reason New Vegas had better locations was because it had better vaults. The experiments made more sense, the vaults were more fun to explore, none of them were inconsistent with canon like Vault 87, and Vault 11 was beyond anything in Fallout 3 (probably one of the better vaults in the series). Ironically, Vault 106, which I found to be the best vault in Fallout 3, was first conceived by Chris Avellone

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

First, that if the west coast enclave had access to this data, it implies that significant elements of the enclave and their research were able to escape the west coast,

As I recall Eden specifically says he was built to monitor Enclave bases across the country, he probably had access to computer systems around the US from various enclave bases, explaining how he could get the FEV data with ease.

Yes. But as counter evidence to that claim (in other words, the part that is contrary to the previous lore or even later lore):

1) You are told specifically that the Enclave is concentrated on the West Coast and have very limited capability to project power elsewhere. (Fallout 2)
2) FEV research was based on the west coast and never once was it implied to be directly related to the vault project. (Fallout 1, 2)
3) Cross country communications were cut. (Implied across all but explicitly stated in Fallout: Tactics as even the hardened communication system of the vault network was destroyed)
4) The FEV strain on the east coast was different than on the West Coast (Fallout 3)
5) Complex data was sent by a man working on the east coast Enclave to the West Coast Enclave 30 years after the West Coast Enclave was destroyed via a robot (F:NV).

Aside from one line to the contrary, you have plenty of evidence that suggests cross continent communication simply isn't possible. If it were, I'd expect that you'd know the guys at the other end were dead after a few decades.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

1. DR was actually in the original Fallout games in addition to DT. Except when separated, DT worked on its own while DR didn't. Why? Because on its own, an amount deducted from damage made more of an impact than a percent deducted from damage, so DT could add RPG mechanics to the combat on its own while DR really couldn't. So although both have always been a part of Fallout, DT ended up being more important, as evidenced by New Vegas. Point being: I agree with you, I'm just adding some more context

Actually, I'd argue that DR simply doesn't work. It makes armor almost entirely optional for significant parts of the game as you have to have an incredibly high DR to actually significantly reduce damage. A DT on the other hand allows smaller values to still be useful. With DR, the only possible reason to not wear the heaviest possible armor was because it may reduce your agility (and thus AP). By contrast, DT allows a relatively small amount of protection to still be useful. It is possible, for example, to get a DT of 10 naturally meaning you are all but immune to 9mm or smaller and take greatly reduced damage from shotguns of any sort.

In the long run DT also proves the better option. With DR alone, obscenely powerful attacks leave mere scratches which is hardly necessary in a game where the player can make all the wrong choices and still end up an unstoppable killing machine. By contrast, it is possible to provide a DT score that provides near immunity to trivial fire but leaves the player vulnerable to high end weapons like Brush Guns.

Simply put, DT scales better from start to finish. Still, I do prefer the old system where DT was simply the minimum damage required to pierce and then DR was how much the damage was reduced upon penetration. I seem to recall the old games also featured AC which represented how hard you were to hit.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Yes. But as counter evidence to that claim (in other words, the part that is contrary to the previous lore or even later lore):

1) You are told specifically that the Enclave is concentrated on the West Coast and have very limited capability to project power elsewhere. (Fallout 2)
2) FEV research was based on the west coast and never once was it implied to be directly related to the vault project. (Fallout 1, 2)
3) Cross country communications were cut. (Implied across all but explicitly stated in Fallout: Tactics as even the hardened communication system of the vault network was destroyed)
4) The FEV strain on the east coast was different than on the West Coast (Fallout 3)
5) Complex data was sent by a man working on the east coast Enclave to the West Coast Enclave 30 years after the West Coast Enclave was destroyed via a robot (F:NV).

Aside from one line to the contrary, you have plenty of evidence that suggests cross continent communication simply isn't possible. If it were, I'd expect that you'd know the guys at the other end were dead after a few decades.

1. At the time of Fallout 2 Eden was by himself, and not really part of the Enclave. There is nothing about a singular AI who watches stuff that breaks your first point. The Enclave projected their power nowhere, Eden projected to them.

2. All knowledge of the FEV experiment came from documents and people who had limited knowledge, to treat what they said as 100% indisputable fact is to treat what a politician says as 100% indisputable fact. Limited knowledge from limited minds should never be treated as absolute.

3. We don't know how Eden was able to contact the West coast, furthermore the Oil rig was able to minor the vaults despite the communications cut, and the vault system was DESIGNED to fail by its nature, ofc it went offline, it most likely NEVER worked in the first place.

4. Your point? taking a base sample of FEV and changing it thus forming a new strain is in no way impossible, or improbable

5. Yes and? I'm not sure of the point you were trying to make here.

Actually, I'd argue that DR simply doesn't work. It makes armor almost entirely optional for significant parts of the game as you have to have an incredibly high DR to actually significantly reduce damage. A DT on the other hand allows smaller values to still be useful. With DR, the only possible reason to not wear the heaviest possible armor was because it may reduce your agility (and thus AP). By contrast, DT allows a relatively small amount of protection to still be useful. It is possible, for example, to get a DT of 10 naturally meaning you are all but immune to 9mm or smaller and take greatly reduced damage from shotguns of any sort.

In the long run DT also proves the better option. With DR alone, obscenely powerful attacks leave mere scratches which is hardly necessary in a game where the player can make all the wrong choices and still end up an unstoppable killing machine. By contrast, it is possible to provide a DT score that provides near immunity to trivial fire but leaves the player vulnerable to high end weapons like Brush Guns.

Simply put, DT scales better from start to finish. Still, I do prefer the old system where DT was simply the minimum damage required to pierce and then DR was how much the damage was reduced upon penetration. I seem to recall the old games also featured AC which represented how hard you were to hit.

Except DT makes all heavy armor in New Vegas pointless.

It was one of the biggest complaints about New Vegas, it got splattered all over the Fallout forums.

DT makes anything except light armor 100% pointless.

 

[Norrdicus]

Ironically, Vault 106, which I found to be the best vault in Fallout 3, was first conceived by Chris Avellone

Wait a second...

*searches Fallout Bible 1 for Vault 106*

Well damn, it really was there

Holy crap, I don't wanna know the absolute shitstorm that would go down on this site if these people played Final Fantasy.

Most Final Fantasies don't even pretend to be in the same continuity. Now, if Ivalice was the main setting of the FF franchise...

 

[MaulYoda]

1. DR was actually in the original Fallout games in addition to DT. Except when separated, DT worked on its own while DR didn't. Why? Because on its own, an amount deducted from damage made more of an impact than a percent deducted from damage, so DT could add RPG mechanics to the combat on its own while DR really couldn't. So although both have always been a part of Fallout, DT ended up being more important, as evidenced by New Vegas. Point being: I agree with you, I'm just adding some more context

Actually, I'd argue that DR simply doesn't work. It makes armor almost entirely optional for significant parts of the game as you have to have an incredibly high DR to actually significantly reduce damage. A DT on the other hand allows smaller values to still be useful. With DR, the only possible reason to not wear the heaviest possible armor was because it may reduce your agility (and thus AP). By contrast, DT allows a relatively small amount of protection to still be useful. It is possible, for example, to get a DT of 10 naturally meaning you are all but immune to 9mm or smaller and take greatly reduced damage from shotguns of any sort.

In the long run DT also proves the better option. With DR alone, obscenely powerful attacks leave mere scratches which is hardly necessary in a game where the player can make all the wrong choices and still end up an unstoppable killing machine. By contrast, it is possible to provide a DT score that provides near immunity to trivial fire but leaves the player vulnerable to high end weapons like Brush Guns.

Simply put, DT scales better from start to finish. Still, I do prefer the old system where DT was simply the minimum damage required to pierce and then DR was how much the damage was reduced upon penetration. I seem to recall the old games also featured AC which represented how hard you were to hit.

Like I said, DR worked when it was used with DT. On its own, however, DR didn't work for the reasons you and I pointed out (and it could work at absurdly high values, but almost too well). A couple of things though. There is every reason not to wear the heaviest armor since you really don't need to. I got through the game wearing sexy sleepwear, so even if the heavy armors actually made use of DR, it wasn't necessary. The most effective way to take the least damage was to use VATS, where you only took 10% of damage, making it ridiculously overpowered (by contrast, you took 75% of damage in VATS in New Vegas). This, coupled with the fact that you became pretty damn powerful halfway to the level cap (and a demigod by the time you hit it) made DR useless. The other thing is that unlike DT in New Vegas or both DR and DT in previous games, DR only affected how much damage you took, not how much damage you did to your enemies, so combat was made even more uneven. This also meant that there was no real strategy to combat, unlike New Vegas where DT prompts you to use different weapons and ammo types and allows for some strategy (a point you referenced)

The old system, by the way, uses DT and DR in the same way. DT subtracted a specific number from the damage (or as you put it, made for a minimum damage requirement), and DR subtracted a percent of the damage from whatever was left after DT. So if you had a DT of 20 and a DR of 10 and an attack doing 80 damage, DT would lessen it to 60 and DR would lessen it to 54. The formula was more complex than that, not to mention that there were different DT and DR values for each type of damage (i.e. plasma, laser, fire, normal), but that's the gist of how it worked. Also, armor class affected your ability to evade attacks; the AC value was subtracted from your opponents chance to hit

 

[MaulYoda]

I notice a lot of people are complaining because Fallout 3 had little to do with the previous 2 games...

Holy crap, I don't wanna know the absolute shitstorm that would go down on this site if these people played Final Fantasy.

Except Fallout initially established series continuity, while Final Fantasy did not. In fact, I'd think most Final Fantasy fans would be pissed at Square for attempting to establish continuity (i.e. X-2, XIII-2 and Lighting Returns, the various spin-offs of VII) than for setting each game in its own universe

 

[MaulYoda]

Ironically, Vault 106, which I found to be the best vault in Fallout 3, was first conceived by Chris Avellone

Wait a second...

*searches Fallout Bible 1 for Vault 106*

Well damn, it really was there

In case you're curious, Vault 34 in New Vegas is the only other vault first mentioned in the Fallout Bible to be in a Fallout game (Vault 29, which also was first mentioned in the Fallout Bible, was to appear in Black Isle's Fallout 3 though)

 

[TimeLord]

I never played Fallout 1 or 2. So I just enjoyed a fantastic atmosphere and a world to explore that I've never encountered before

 

[SajuukKhar]

Super Mutants, Enclave, BoS are not fucking Fallout. That's Bethesda's line of thinking. "These things were in the previous game so that's what makes fallout fallout." Yeah just ignore the whole fucking reason 1 and 2 were remotely good at all dur.

When Fallout 2 was made they didn't just resurrect the master, they made something new. The core of Fallout is choices and consequences in quests, around the theme of rebuilding the world. That's what is important and that is what Bethesda ignored.

for someoen who complains about Bethesda not knowing about Fallout you seemed to have made the exact same mistake

around the theme of rebuilding the world.

No it isn;t, in fact it is the exact opposite, its about how humans are destined to destroy ourselves, and the world around us time and time again.

Its Fallout's motto "war, war never changes"

Rebuilding has never been important to Fallout in anything other then a means to destroy it again.

Its why even in New Veags the NCR shows signs of collapsing, and both Marucs and House claim Caesar's legion is just going to fall apart shortly after he dies.