Female Gamers: Are you tired of being presented with no dignity?

[squid5580]

Why aren't guys forming groups against those romance novels with Fabio on the cover? Are we not entitled to self esteem problems as well? I know the answer It is because most guys are capable of telling the difference between reality and fantasy.

No, it's because we get a lot more varied representation of ourselves in many genres and medias, from the testosterone-poisoned one man army to the awkward nerd and everything in between.

In videogames specifically, women are massively of the anatomically-impossible hotness variety. Almost ubiquitously.

The Barbie analogy doesn't even apply to this, because I've seen a lot more varied female portrayals in dolls than in videogame characters. Although Barbie itself is of a pretty stupid design.

My stereotype sense is tingling. I don't know how many games you have played but in my experience I have seen a variety of different portrayls of girls and women. Sure some have fallen into the big boob wearing a piece of thread type but I have also seen them portrayed as mothers, daughters and sisters. All wearing normal clothes (well clothes anyways some of them outfits are pretty messed up in a fashion sense).

I think you both missed the point of the thread: the OP didn't mention anything in the initial post about "self-esteem problems." Read the title: this is about being "tired" of female characters being presented with no dignity, not about self-esteem issues from unreasonable models of perfection.

Oh right because it is the size of your tits and the clothes you wear that determine how much dignity you have. It doesn't matter if Lara Croft is portrayed as a well educated archeologist because of the size of her boobs she will never be anything more than eye candy.

Well, these aren't really people--they're digital characters. The idea is that some real person somewhere along the line made the decision "hey let's give her big tits and put her in revealing clothing" That's what I think bothers people. Why isn't Lara Croft a good enough character just being an athletic archeologist? Why does she need huge boobs too? What went into the design process, and what reaction was it intended to provoke in the user, and how was it planned to provoke it?

Now, I think the issue is that our models of feminine perfection and masculine perfection are asymmetrical: the female image has a lot more to do with sex appeal and objectification, and so we struggle making a female character looks as 'bad-ass' as a male because the stock female imagery was never meant to convey 'perfect' and 'female' and 'bad ass' all at the same time.

However, that doesn't mean there's no issue there in the first place.

I am sick and tired of the female gamer representing us gamers in such a way. That is a much bigger problem than "OMG she is wearing a piece of string." Just because developers make women in games well endowed and scantily clothed doesn't affect sales all that much. Did X-Blades hit the top of the charts? Is SF4 getting it's ass kicked by SC4? No because of one simple reason. The MC and the clothes they may or may not wear mean nothing until someone shines a huge political spotlight on it and makes a big deal about nothing. I would be more worried about games like Petz (and any other DS game that uses a Z instead of an S) and how they are representing girls than I would about the thing Ivy wears.

Why can't you be worried about both?

Because I am too busy typing "I am not like that so not all gamers are like that" to have time to worry about either.

 

[Simmo8591]

Sorry to say this but this is true, sex sells. And most males are stupid enough to buy any game that
A)Involves shooting and killing (Halo)
B)Has big boobs (Dead or Alive)
C)is a sports game(Madden...idk why it's the same thing each year mostly)
D)Involves shooting and Killing (gears of war)

you DO realize you just did reverse sexism, and totally rendered your point invalid?

lets try to get past your reverse ignorance and look at your point..
a game that involves shooting or killing, or sports.
well, can you name a good game that didn't involve any of that at all?
because I sure as hell cant.

I know so many guys who fall under A B C or D, I wasn't listing those to be funny. I'm basing it off what I know. And yes I know it's reverse sexism, but it's also true. TV shows, movies, anime, video games when targeted to guys have lots of action, lots of hot girls, or both.
Halo, Gears of Wars, Left 4 Dead falls under my shooty action list
X-Blades, DoA, Fable 2, Disgaea 3 can fall under my sexy list

The only people I met in real life that enjoy stuff like puzzle games or retro stuff, was my nerdy Computer Science friends.

Also how is it ignorant to be honest about it? Show me one action game where the female is not wearing something "sexy" (I can only think of portal so thing of something else).

you've already mentioned Gears of War, the only female characters were Maria and Anya, one a lost and malnourished prisoner, the other a military tech officer who (in the brief scenes where she is seen) wears a military gray coat buttoned to the neck.

The Metroid series has no risque apparel for Samus, you can only see her eyes if you look at the visor reflections.

If you are looking for a game devoid of violence as well as a lewd portrayal of women then try Harvest moon, Animal Crossing, Wii fit, Wii Music, Guitar Hero and all other rock based games, Singstar, Little Big Planet, dance mat games, Viva Pinata

I could go on listing these games but I think these examples are ample proof that plenty of these games exist and can be fun for the whole family.

also does you definition of 'action' include racers? if not then please add to my list almost every racer ever invented. no killing, no nudity and very popular

You also seem to ostracize all men everywhere in your scathing and generalizing account of what makes us tick. we either fall into the guns and nudity camp of shooters and eye candy, blowing each other up in between chugging beers, making demeaning comments about women and playing sports.

Or we can be equally as ridiculed in the 'puzzle camp' a collection of 'nerdy Computer Science' types who seem unable to grasp fun as a concept and are laughed at by you for not enjoying 'Man Games' even while you criticize all other men for doing just that.

I would like to know where men should fall in the gaming demographic and for that matter where you believe women fall. clearly (by your logic) women are put off by the sexism portrayed in some games, the violence in other and the geekiness of the third.

maybe you should rethink your gross generalizing of men, particularly in a topic designed to combat the stereotypes that some women find in gaming.

 

[A.I. Sigma]

As far as I'm concerned, you don't need to have melons shoved down your top to be attractive. In fact, I'd like to see a game where a female lead was plain, or even ugly. Maybe then they could concentrate on more important aspects of the game, rather than how realistically the light reflects off the characters uncovered, perfect bosoms.

-.-

 

[Gestapo Hunter]

me and my avatar are going to go somewhere else now.

 

[Naheal]

What game is this where women are running around in a desert sans-shirt, and where did you see anyone complaining about it?

Since clothing seems to be a reoccuring theme, I felt it neccisary to point out setting. Take, for example, the Prince of Persia Sands of Time setting. It's entirely possible to create a female character wearing next to nothing, yet still portray, at the very least, self respect and be human.

Isn't that pretty much an exception that swallows the rule? I mean, the question was about dignity--a concept tied to idea of decency.

Not neccisarily. Where practicality overrides decency in, again pointing to my desert setting, decency no longer is equivilant to dignity. Rather, it's about how the particular character carries and presents themselves.

Like I said: sort of the exception that swallows the rule--really, you're not arguing that women are or are not portrayed with dignity, you're arguing against the idea that there is any relationship between clothing and dignity in the first place.

Not to mention, what about when women *are* wearing a "strip of cloth" as opposed to a shirt in these games? The idea of a strip of cloth across a woman's breast:

*snip*

is exactly what the OP was talking about.

The Ivy argument is just as valid as what I'm trying to portay, but the difference is that Ivy is, well, fighting in a setting where armor would be a requirement. I'm not disagreeing that characters such as that should get a heavy dose of realism, but, from that same game, take the Taki character. Though she doesn't wear much that would be revealing, she does wear an outfit that leave very little to the imagination, yet I see no one siting that particular character. Why? Because she's a ninja. It's almost expected.

When they start putting in women:

1) with breast that look like the ones in National Geographic and not like ones that you'd have to have lived in a zero-gravity environment your entire life to be that perky;

and

2) are dark enough like those African tribes not to have all died of skin cancer from running around with nothing covering them up,

Then I'll say you have a point. ;-D

Again, I'll point to Taki, but I'll also point to the greeks in our own history. Though I was pointing to the african tribes in our own world, they're hardly the only example where partial nudity is fairly commonplace and not really thought of much beyond "oh, it's a woman".

Although, I will give credit to the argument about breast size and being that perky. That is something that should be fixed to proportion.

Edit: to point something out, I prefer to take this from simply a cold perspective and would honestly like to know responses on this. This is incredibly helpful considering I'm intending on getting into the development industry and would like to see what can be improved where and just what is "too far".

 

[squid5580]

As far as I'm concerned, you don't need to have melons shoved down your top to be attractive. In fact, I'd like to see a game where a female lead was plain, or even ugly. Maybe then they could concentrate on more important aspects of the game, rather than how realistically the light reflects off the characters uncovered, perfect bosoms.

-.-

If anyone actually believes this is what runs through a developers mind when creating a game then may I suggest you sell all your gaming gear now. Just due to the simple fact the industry would be to stupid to sustain itself. X-Blades didn't sell well at all. Why you might ask? Well because this whole theory all you need is a pair of scantily clad breasts is all you need to make us stupid gamers happy is a dumbass theory pure and simple. Developers know it, gamers know it and the only ones who haven't clued in is bra burning feminists. The one big factor here is when you buy a game you are going to spend the next 5-1000 hours looking at these people. So now who here wants to look at an attractive character for the next 5-1000 hours and who wants to look at a character where the only thing running through you mind is I wouldn't do her with Bill's dick and John pushing?

 

[squid5580]

Why aren't guys forming groups against those romance novels with Fabio on the cover? Are we not entitled to self esteem problems as well? I know the answer It is because most guys are capable of telling the difference between reality and fantasy.

No, it's because we get a lot more varied representation of ourselves in many genres and medias, from the testosterone-poisoned one man army to the awkward nerd and everything in between.

In videogames specifically, women are massively of the anatomically-impossible hotness variety. Almost ubiquitously.

The Barbie analogy doesn't even apply to this, because I've seen a lot more varied female portrayals in dolls than in videogame characters. Although Barbie itself is of a pretty stupid design.

My stereotype sense is tingling. I don't know how many games you have played but in my experience I have seen a variety of different portrayls of girls and women. Sure some have fallen into the big boob wearing a piece of thread type but I have also seen them portrayed as mothers, daughters and sisters. All wearing normal clothes (well clothes anyways some of them outfits are pretty messed up in a fashion sense).

I think you both missed the point of the thread: the OP didn't mention anything in the initial post about "self-esteem problems." Read the title: this is about being "tired" of female characters being presented with no dignity, not about self-esteem issues from unreasonable models of perfection.

Oh right because it is the size of your tits and the clothes you wear that determine how much dignity you have. It doesn't matter if Lara Croft is portrayed as a well educated archeologist because of the size of her boobs she will never be anything more than eye candy.

Well, these aren't really people--they're digital characters. The idea is that some real person somewhere along the line made the decision "hey let's give her big tits and put her in revealing clothing" That's what I think bothers people. Why isn't Lara Croft a good enough character just being an athletic archeologist? Why does she need huge boobs too? What went into the design process, and what reaction was it intended to provoke in the user, and how was it planned to provoke it?

Now, I think the issue is that our models of feminine perfection and masculine perfection are asymmetrical: the female image has a lot more to do with sex appeal and objectification, and so we struggle making a female character looks as 'bad-ass' as a male because the stock female imagery was never meant to convey 'perfect' and 'female' and 'bad ass' all at the same time.

However, that doesn't mean there's no issue there in the first place.

I am sick and tired of the female gamer representing us gamers in such a way. That is a much bigger problem than "OMG she is wearing a piece of string." Just because developers make women in games well endowed and scantily clothed doesn't affect sales all that much. Did X-Blades hit the top of the charts? Is SF4 getting it's ass kicked by SC4? No because of one simple reason. The MC and the clothes they may or may not wear mean nothing until someone shines a huge political spotlight on it and makes a big deal about nothing. I would be more worried about games like Petz (and any other DS game that uses a Z instead of an S) and how they are representing girls than I would about the thing Ivy wears.

Why can't you be worried about both?

Because I am too busy typing "I am not like that so not all gamers are like that" to have time to worry about either.

Like what?

Like all male gamers are sex depraved perverts who only buy games based on the size of the girls chest depicted on the box.

 

[annoyinglizardvoice]

Well videogame women are generally very attractive, yes. Thats because no one wants to watch an ugly person walk around instead of an attractive one. The same applies to movies. Ever notice how 90% of actresses/actors are very attractive?

I disagree. When able to make my own characters, I try to avoid making ones who are particularly attractive and am frequently that I can't make female characters look pumped-up and horrifically scarred.
The excessive efforts to make female characters look hot and male characters look tough just make them all look too much like every other character trying for the same thing, which I personally find puts me off a lot of games.
Sorry if two of these comments appear, my conection acted up during the first one, so I'm not sure if it posted.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

The one big factor here is when you buy a game you are going to spend the next 5-1000 hours looking at these people. So now who here wants to look at an attractive character for the next 5-1000 hours and who wants to look at a character where the only thing running through you mind is I wouldn't do her with Bill's dick and John pushing?

You make a valid point, however zeroing in on the essence of what the OP said, they don't have to be overly-endowed and scantily clad to be "attractive". I'd quite happily play as Alyx Vance for 5-1000 hours and she is trim and modestly attired.

 

[Naheal]

What game is this where women are running around in a desert sans-shirt, and where did you see anyone complaining about it?

Since clothing seems to be a reoccuring theme, I felt it neccisary to point out setting. Take, for example, the Prince of Persia Sands of Time setting. It's entirely possible to create a female character wearing next to nothing, yet still portray, at the very least, self respect and be human.

Sure. However, I don't think anyone said "if a female character is wearing next to nothing regardless of the context that means she's being presented with no dignity."

Isn't that pretty much an exception that swallows the rule? I mean, the question was about dignity--a concept tied to idea of decency.

Not neccisarily. Where practicality overrides decency in, again pointing to my desert setting, decency no longer is equivilant to dignity. Rather, it's about how the particular character carries and presents themselves.

Well, that's why I said "pretty much" not "necessarily".

Also, in the desert, the most practical thing is a Stillsuit. The desert is one place you *really* don't want to be sans-shirt--you at least want something to keep the sun off you.

Like I said: sort of the exception that swallows the rule--really, you're not arguing that women are or are not portrayed with dignity, you're arguing against the idea that there is any relationship between clothing and dignity in the first place.

Not to mention, what about when women *are* wearing a "strip of cloth" as opposed to a shirt in these games? The idea of a strip of cloth across a woman's breast:

*snip*

is exactly what the OP was talking about.

The Ivy argument is just as valid as what I'm trying to portay, but the difference is that Ivy is, well, fighting in a setting where armor would be a requirement. I'm not disagreeing that characters such as that should get a heavy dose of realism, but, from that same game, take the Taki character. Though she doesn't wear much that would be revealing, she does wear an outfit that leave very little to the imagination, yet I see no one siting that particular character. Why? Because she's a ninja. It's almost expected.

Right, but the OP wasn't talking about situations where it's "almost expected": she was talking about "unrealistic, often impossible (according to physics and anatomy) ways, that are completely IRRELEVENT."

When they start putting in women:

1) with breast that look like the ones in National Geographic and not like ones that you'd have to have lived in a zero-gravity environment your entire life to be that perky;

and

2) are dark enough like those African tribes not to have all died of skin cancer from running around with nothing covering them up,

Then I'll say you have a point. ;-D

Again, I'll point to Taki, but I'll also point to the greeks in our own history. Though I was pointing to the african tribes in our own world, they're hardly the only example where partial nudity is fairly commonplace and not really thought of much beyond "oh, it's a woman".

That's the thing: the presentation is rarely about "this is commonplace": it's "this is meant to titillate and be taken the exact opposite of commonplace."

You seem to be trying to make a case for games I don't think the OP (or a lot of the other posters) would have a problem with in the first place.

The case that I'm attempting to make is more one to clarify where exactly the issue lies, force it to the open so that all the incredibly dense people could see, and point it out so that we can realize where the industry is going wrong, and I'll point straight to this one word: Presentation. I'm not attempting to shoot down your, or the OPs, points to show that women need to be presented with decency; they need to be made! The point that I was trying to shove to the surface was that most of the people on this topic seem to have missed the point that there are some exeptions to these rules.

Edit: English sucks.

 

[squid5580]

The one big factor here is when you buy a game you are going to spend the next 5-1000 hours looking at these people. So now who here wants to look at an attractive character for the next 5-1000 hours and who wants to look at a character where the only thing running through you mind is I wouldn't do her with Bill's dick and John pushing?

You make a valid point, however zeroing in on the essence of what the OP said, they don't have to be overly-endowed and scantily clad to be "attractive". I'd quite happily play as Alyx Vance for 5-1000 hours and she is trim and modestly attired.

Why? You wouldn't even get to see her feet.

This is what bugs me. Alyx was modestly dressed and attractive. Along with a ton of other games that portray women wearing modest clothes. And there is a few games that have big bouncing breast physics hiding behind a piece of dental floss. Now if we can agree on that then we just blew away the OT as a piece of stereotypical ramblings. Just because a game like DOA Extreme Volleyball or X-Blades exists doesn't mean anything. Not when you want to throw them in as "this is how the entire industry works." If you want to discuss how the game X-Blades hoped to trick gamers by putting the blonde on the cover wearing next to nothing. Or how whoever developed X-Blades attempted to use sex to sell thier game. I can't argue that. What I can argue is that X-Blades or any other single title is not a fair representation of the industry either. Even combined they are still not a fair representation of the industry as a whole.

 

[squid5580]

I am sick and tired of the female gamer representing us gamers in such a way. That is a much bigger problem than "OMG she is wearing a piece of string." Just because developers make women in games well endowed and scantily clothed doesn't affect sales all that much. Did X-Blades hit the top of the charts? Is SF4 getting it's ass kicked by SC4? No because of one simple reason. The MC and the clothes they may or may not wear mean nothing until someone shines a huge political spotlight on it and makes a big deal about nothing. I would be more worried about games like Petz (and any other DS game that uses a Z instead of an S) and how they are representing girls than I would about the thing Ivy wears.

Why can't you be worried about both?

Because I am too busy typing "I am not like that so not all gamers are like that" to have time to worry about either.

Like what?

Like all male gamers are sex depraved perverts who only buy games based on the size of the girls chest depicted on the box.

If you're too busy typing about that to be worried about both, how did you find the time to type responses to Ericb, me, and the OP, none of whom said you or all gamers are like that? I mean, you've only gotten around to that point now: where did you find that time away from typing about your main concern?

Sorry I simplified it for you. Since that is alot of what the OT is about. These types of games wouldn't get made if there wasn't these hordes of sex depraved gamers would they? I mean a market isn't really a market without consumers is it. And the rest of your post has been answered up a bit. I am not going to rehash it.

 

[Nutcase]

What I can argue is that X-Blades or any other single title is not a fair representation of the industry either. Even combined they are still not a fair representation of the industry as a whole.

But it is a fair representation of the industry as a whole that playable women do not get into games without adhering very closely to male beauty standard averages. Just try to find a middle-aged or old playable woman - the corresponding men are all over.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

I agree. But I also hate this arguement. Mostly because its not going to change. You wanna know what sells? Hot chicks in black tight leather. You wanna know what doesn't? Normal looking girls. So all you're doing is getting badges and changing nothing. Because for all of this forums fame, it doesn't even equal %.00000001 percent of the gaming community.