FF7 remake most important ever, and that's not a compliment
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FF12 is FF10's battle system but allowing the player to automate everything so you don't have to constantly select everything from menus over and over again. What don't you get about literally being able to play FF12 exactly like FF10? There's no strategic puzzles in FF10 or FF12 for that matter. Some bosses or unique creatures require a slightly different broad strategy that doesn't require you to go turn-by-turn to execute. You fight the same damn creatures hundreds of times, you know what to do to beat them rather easily like use the guy with the blitzball to kill flying enemies or just use doublecast on everything with regards to FF10. And you somehow think each battle was a tactical puzzle, seriously? FF10 or any regular FF is not Tactics.Lightspeaker said:
If you want I'll compare FF10 to Xenosaga II, which had a battle system that merited it being turn-based because you really had to plan out your moves, it wasn't terribly strategic or difficult either, but you at least had to think several moves ahead.
It takes probably at least millions of if-then-else statements to automate chess, a whole freaking computer was developed just to play chess called Deep Blue. Whereas FF12 (and FF10 with gambits) takes 5-10 if-then-else statements to play itself and can be programmed as such by players with no programming experience. It's annoying as hell to play a game just doing the same repetitive inputs all game when you can easily program the game to play itself, it's a complete waste of my time. There's a reason why that particular type of turn-based combat is almost non-existent now whereas something like DnD's turn-based combat system that is much older is still used in games as XCOM uses DnD's combat system.
The only thing that matters in an FF7 remake is an extended Cloud crossdressing scene. Everything else is secondary.
The Final Fantasy Remake boils down to the fact that Square has remade almost all of their old Final Fantasy games. 5, 6, 7, were the prime canadates for the next remake. However FF7 has been clamored be the fan community to be remade the most often. Of the Final Fantasies still awaiting a remake. FF7 is the one that has the fan desire behind it, and frankly the most need of a remake. Five and six are old but they have the 16-bitness going for them which is a graphical style that continues to hold up to this day. Of the PS1 games 7 is the one that suffered from clunky 3d modeling and just has not stood the test of time, which is not something that 8 or 9 suffer from.
And top it all off with the fact by doing a FF7 remake, they do not have to start from scratch as they have a lot of high powered character and scenery assets already made for them. Advent Children, Crisis Core, and Derge of Vincent, all had updated cinematics and set pieces in which they can reuse to help recreate FF7 on a whole. Any other Final Fantasy literally means starting completely from scratch.
And top it all off with the fact by doing a FF7 remake, they do not have to start from scratch as they have a lot of high powered character and scenery assets already made for them. Advent Children, Crisis Core, and Derge of Vincent, all had updated cinematics and set pieces in which they can reuse to help recreate FF7 on a whole. Any other Final Fantasy literally means starting completely from scratch.
Yes, it was using random battles. Because it's not an action game, it's a turn based/ATB based game. Random battles are a staple of the JRPG genre.Phoenixmgs said:
The fact that you liked FF12 more isn't "proof that all prior FF games shouldn't have had Turnbased/ATB systems". It's proof that you don't like Turn based/atb style systems. I mean I don't like ARMA because the combat is so "realistic", so I don't play the ARMA series. Just because I enjoy Duke Nukem 3D more, that is not proof that DN3D is more enjoyable and ARMA is terrible.Phoenixmgs said:
They're....not going to change it that much that it's going to be substationally different.Phoenixmgs said:
Well, and keeping in mind that I did not like FF7 at all, in this case I think its related to a combination of ease of access for an older title and getting some issues sorted while they're at it.CandideWolf said:
FF7 came out originally for Playstation and later on it got a PC release - and right off the bat there are problems. Emulators aside, it isn't easy to get a legit PS1 copy of FF7 going anymore if only because the PS1 hardware had a lot of moving parts and the damn things disintegrate over time. You can use a PS2, but eventually you will start bumping into the same problems for the same reasons. They just don't last like the old cartridge consoles because there are so many sensitive lenses and moving bits. The PC release, conversely, will more or less work on any machine today as well as it did on release. And it was a goddamn travesty on release. Fixed issues in the original version, and introduced a shit tonne of its own. The steam version is apparently less fucked, but I've never been willing to test it.
Beyond being able to play an older game at all again, there is just the problems with the game itself. Well maybe not "problems", but things could be fixed if they are going to the trouble of releasing a version of the game that is legit and fully functional on todays hardware.
The graphics have not aged well, and even at the time they really did not measure up to the competition (this game came out in 97, same year as the second Crash Bandicoot, and one year before MGS1). It managed to look like lego demons despite the technology clearly being capable of way more. Related is an outdated combat system, which pales in comparison to many of the FF series offerings in the years since. People tend to get pretty antsy around 9 and 10, but both of those had distinct and very streamlined combat systems that blow the many of the older iterations away. Add to that bizarre little sections and mandatory weirdness that wasn't super fun at the time, and there are things that could be addressed.
From my perspective, this may as well be a new game anyway. I know its going to have "FF7" on the front, and I know that the story will be fairly related to that game, but unless they copy/paste the text and game elements from the original to the remake then chances are there will be enough things different that it will be notably distinct from its predecessor. The fans will get the game they liked over again, and the nonfans like me will get a second try at giving a crap. I hated everything since about half of FFX anyway so a return to form might work for me anyway.
I see OP, so you didn't play it, know nothing about it, but are very keen on condemning it all... essentially you have an issue that other people like some game you never bothered to play.
You have truly and indisputably earned the top spot on my spam filter list.
You have truly and indisputably earned the top spot on my spam filter list.
Most JRPGs, including FF, FINALLY gave up random battles during the PS2 era, they aren't a staple of JRPGs anymore. The reason random battles suck (and really should've never been used) is because they make the world feel lifeless since it's barren of life (my backyard is more interesting than FF10's Calm Lands). Random battles also hinder exploration because if I want to go over and check out some corner of the map, not only do I have do clear the monsters on the way there (which is fine), but I also have to kill just as many monsters on my way back to my original starting spot when I just fucking cleared a path. Random battles are an archaic mechanic that should have never existed in the 1st place. They only stuck around so long because JRPGs evolve at a snail's pace.elvor0 said:
You misinterpreted my argument and I do like good turn-based combat like say Xenosaga II or XCOM. My point is that if a turn-based combat system has so little strategy that it can be done and work in real-time, it should be done in real-time because inputting the same common sense commands over and over again is boring and repetitive. Oh, there's a flying enemy, I'll use Wakka to throw a blitzball at it, that's not strategy, it's common sense. Or you can use double-cast on everything in FF10, why make the player input the same thing over and over again through menus when I can just press a button or automate it myself like FF12?
There won't be random battles and the battle system will be quite a bit different.
Normally I don't mind a remake or re-release if you can't get the game in a easy legal fashion, Mother being a recent example seeing how before the only method to play it in English was the leaked rom of the prototype. But FF7 is on multiple systems that is still easy to get. PS3/PSP/PSVita/PC all have a version of FF7 you can get, and it's not like Final Mix cause last time I checked the US version is the best version of the game. The only consistent reason I've seen people ask for a FF7 remake was to fix the graphics and dialog (which dialog is dependent on the person cause I've seen people get mad over updated a script in a game). I've learned from gaming that people only complain if it's something they don't want, but if it's something they want it's the best thing ever. I hear Metriod fans are trying to petition Nintendo to cancel the new Metriod game coming out. Instead of you know not buying it.CandideWolf said:
The only way they'll get me to even think about getting that remake is if they remove (or seriously tone down) the minigames. Way too many of them in Disc 1, they completely destroyed any pacing.
Perhaps I should've said were a staple. They were a staple when FFX came out. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one though. I personally don't mind them much, so long as the game isn't too aggresive with them and doesn't rely on them for run time, or puts systems in place that allow for you to allivate them. However, I don't think they should be removed entirely, they have their place, it's just about execution. Bravely Default has random encounters and it sold like hotcakes.Phoenixmgs said:
FF10 plays nothing like FF12. FF aren't SRPGs, they're tradition JRPGs. I'm not going to argue that hot"key"(?) menu commands could be a great idea for commonly used abilites, but I'm not a massive fan of automation. FF12 had so much automation that once you unlocked enough slots, the game could play itself, and really, do you want to do let the game do that? Why not watch a Lets Play?Phoenixmgs said:
[/quote]Phoenixmgs said:
You'll have to give me a source on that. Nomura said he wanted to tweak the combat system (so I'm guessing similar to FF10-2 combat system, which I'm okay with, because it's just a more fluid version of 7/8/9s, but there should be a toggle.) I've yet to read anything from Square or Nomura directly that says they've removing random battles. I have no reason to believe they'd change the combat system so much that it wouldn't even resemble FF7, because that would stupid. FF7 has a pretty feverish fanbase and gutting the combat system is unlikely to go down well. I'd be pretty pissed if it ended up being like FF13 or 12 and I actually liked 12s combat system.
FF12 is worse than FF13 combat system? FF13 combat system was fucking awful. Position conditional spells in a game where you couldn't specifically target, aoe heals where you couldn't position your own team, AI that tried to outheal poison, AI that buffed your casters with Strength, AI that buffed Defence when fighting Magic enemies, the complete lack of any control over your other party members, no resource management, horrendous level capping and grinding once you got to Grand Pulse(grand pulse in general actually), your party leader dies and it's game over, just being able to mash A and occasionally change paradigm, tech points being stupidly designed, Eidolon abush fights that fucked up your paradigms. If you can't control the other two members, being able to tweak their behaviour ala Kingdom Hearts or FF12 should be mandatory.Lightspeaker said:
It was still the 7th game in the series. The rest not having been released there doesn't change the fact it was the 7th game. Granted, Square were wierd for releasing games worldwide prior to FF7, but that was the way it was back then.Matt Yaroslavsky said:
On the PC maybe, the PS1 version had the proper soundtrack, back in 1997 a full orchestral soundtrack was neither feasible nor expected. Plus the PS1 soundchip was a pile of crap.Matt Yaroslavsky said:
Not in 1997. Also, Pokemon would like a word with you.Matt Yaroslavsky said:
What? What was contradictory about Aeriths death? And the story was only non-sensical if you weren't paying attention. You may miss things, but it wasn't nonsensical unless you just mashed throught the textMatt Yaroslavsky said:
Um, how are Square Corrupt? Making games you don't like isn't an act of corruption.Matt Yaroslavsky said:
Firstly, FF12 is exactly FF10's battle system if you actually look at how everything is happening one turn at a time. It's just that FF12 automated FF10's battle system. You could literally play FF12 just like FF10 and play turn-by-turn, it would take like 20 times longer to play it that way but you could.elvor0 said:
Again, you're kinda not getting my argument/point. The whole reason you make a combat system turn-based is because there's too much strategy involved for the player to execute everything in real-time. A turned-based system needs to be strategic enough to merit it being turn-based. I'm not saying a turn-based combat system has to be as strategic as a SRPG like FF Tactics or Disgaea or something like XCOM, but there has to be enough strategy to it that you couldn't do it in real-time. For example, Xenosaga II's combat system merits it being turn-based because there's enough strategy, and it's no SRPG. If the combat could be done in real-time, it should be done in real-time.
Geralt in Witcher 3 has more total combat options (moves/abilities/magic/potions/etc.) than any one FF character and Witcher 3 works in real-time; of course, Witcher 3 doesn't have party members but then you can have the player lightly program their AI team members (with something like gambits) to fight on their own and you can even have the option to pause combat to issue a specific command with any party member (like Dragon Age Origins) when required. Basically, the player has full control of one character, some general control over party members (via something like gambits), and the ability to pause combat at any time to tell any character to do a specific move/spell/ability/etc. That's a much more fun combat system because instead of inputting the same commands over and over again, the player can actually do attacks/magic/etc themselves instead of just inputting a command and watching the same animation ad nauseam. And, with this action-based real-time combat system, there's actually more strategy added because since you can move around, positioning becomes a strategic factor (positioning is not even a factor in FF10). So, not only is the player much more active when fighting, but there is even more strategy involved than the freaking turn-based system. That is why a FF10-like turn-based combat system fails considering a real-time system has MORE strategy; a turn-based system should always have more strategy than a real-time system.
I'm just assuming they are going to actually remake FF7 and not just remake FF7 with better graphics, then what's really the point of it all? No FF has had random battles in over a decade, why would a FF7 remake have random battles? Random battles literally were a mechanic due hardware limitions on the NES I believe, why would a freaking PS4 game (5 generations later) have random battles? No FF game has had a combat system like FF7 or FF10 in over a decade either. A FF7 remake is going to sell so much anyways, you don't have to play it safe, plus the original FF7 is always going to exist. It would be like remaking a NES Metal Gear game and not updating the game mechanics, that would be pretty stupid, even the remake of MGS1 updated the game mechanics to MGS2.
What game did you play that you call FF13?elvor0 said:
- You can choose which enemy to target, either from a list or from the battle screen (and what do you mean by position conditional spells? Give an example).
- All heals are either target one or target all, no need for positioning.
- AI trying to outheal poison is because they don't have access to an antidote spell at the time (while the leader/player does, having control over the items, hint hint).
- Never had a problem with AI buffs (they buff what they can if they lack the necessary buffs).
- You have control over them through the paradigm system, but they're not omniscient.
- What resources are you talking about? You have control over everything you have in the game.
- The level cap is there to prevent people from over-levelling (and turning the combat into a real mash A to win like many other FF games before, ironically enough), and that's only a crutch, you never need to get to the cap.
- I agree with Gran Pulse, it was out of place.
- Not the first game to use the leader dead = game over.
- Please show me an FF game where all you need to do isn't to just mash whatever selection button there is while making small adjustments (like press down to select magic or items) every now and then.
- How are tech points stupidly designed? You use a certain amount for actions, and regain some both in battle and as a result of the battle.
- How do the Eidolon fights fuck up your paradigms? The whole point of setting up your own paradigm shifts is you're supposed to be ready for anything, and the game never gives you a fight where you need something you just don't have.
A lot of your complains sound like user error rather than design flaws.
FF7 had a great story, if you turned off at the end of disk 1 before everyone forgot all their goals and motivations to go chase a ghost across the world for no clear reason (I mean, they eventually hamfist it in hours and hours later to explain Cloud, but Avalanche just abandons their whole fight to go help him).
The mechanics aren't terrible, if overly simple compared to some modern JRPGs, and the turn-based will throw a lot of mainline audience off. Mostly I remember being irked about inconsistency in materia slots between characters making me have to reconfigure things all the time rather then a smooth transfer of Materia-sets based on roles. Sandwiched between entries that used the job system (2-6 and 9) and 8 (which let you build a "Job" of sorts out of a set of GFs, and pass the whole set between characters), having oddball characters with weird slotting just tended to make me now use those characters.
Sephiroth comes in and kills Shinra, frees Avalanche. Rather then maintain their victory and try and disable the remaining Mako reactors, all of Avalanche just ups and takes off after the guy who's done nothing but help them to this point. Meteor doesn't happen til ridiculously later, and only because the party was there to begin with. Even the vague justification of meddling with Shinra's pursuit of Sephiroth doesn't come up til 2 or 3 dungeons later in the cannon town.
The mechanics aren't terrible, if overly simple compared to some modern JRPGs, and the turn-based will throw a lot of mainline audience off. Mostly I remember being irked about inconsistency in materia slots between characters making me have to reconfigure things all the time rather then a smooth transfer of Materia-sets based on roles. Sandwiched between entries that used the job system (2-6 and 9) and 8 (which let you build a "Job" of sorts out of a set of GFs, and pass the whole set between characters), having oddball characters with weird slotting just tended to make me now use those characters.
-You can pick a specific enemy, but there is no ground targeting. I may pick an enemy within group of enemies and then the enemy I targeted moved elsewhere and suddenly my AOE attack is useless.KarmaTheAlligator said:
-I believe Cura isn't target all, it's AOE healing. Which, like I said is problematic because your characters move independant of what you want to do.
-Yes, but why? Why would you have make it so a few healers do not have access to basic status healing spells? It's just busy work because up until Grand Pulse you mostly don't have the opportunity to pick your party and you're stuck with certain characters that don't have access to basic spells.
-If you never had a problem with the AI buffs, then you need to pay closer attention to what they're doing. If someone has buff physical and buff magic + buff whatever else, they'll cast them all in order on each character in turn regardless of what I want them to do or what would be beneficial. I'm not talking about them NOT having buff magic, I'm talking about when they do have it and still insist on casting buff strength on my healer. Or insist in casting Protect+Shell when the enemy does not in fact cast magic.
-All you can do is pick classes, they're not programable in the slightest.
-I'm saying that in the sense that there are no resources to manage. Healing up to full after every fight, no mana and no post battle status effects.
-I don't need to get to the /cap/ but when Piosona is at the top of a massive grind, I don't really have a choice, because it's basic healer capability.
-I don't remember any other main FF where if the party leader died it was game over, because there wasn't one.
-The thing is, because the AI is there, there's no reason to do /anything/ but press auto fight. If I could control them, maybe I'd hold off on doing certain things, or make them cast the right fucking spells, or try and time my heals.
-Tech points are badly designed because you get so few of them and you regain them so slowly that using them for anything other than Scan so that the AI won't piss about is a waste of resources. Eidolons are terrible and not worth the time and TP you'll lose having the AI figure out what's super effective against this boss or ruining the opportunity to use the tech point super heal should you need it.
-You did do the Eidolon fights yes? They're ambushes. I can't pick paradigms for people that aren't in my party. If I'm walking along a road and a Eidolon fight pops up out of nowehere (which they do, Bahumat and Vanilles Eidolon for example), the game throws you into the fight with 2 characters it picks with very basic paradigm setups. You CANNOT be prepared for this, and most likely will die. However, when you try again, the game gives you the option of setting up paradigms before the fight. Why not the first? Why do I now need to re set up my paradigms after the fight?