Game of Thrones Season 7 discussion thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND)

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I've been out of the loop of Game of Thrones, but I've kept up where I can. From what I understand, Dany's invasion of Westeros has become a FUBAR because she refuses to use her dragons, and that's led to the Lannisters being able to outmanauver all their foes. Fair enough.

But I'd like to ask where the Lannisters are getting all their men from anyway. I was under the impression that while they effectively won the war (in as much as Stannis and Robb being defeated), their own forces were severely mauled, while the Tyrells at least were relatively unscathed, and the Martells entirely unscathed prior to Oberyn's death. So even if Jaime is the best tactician in Westeros, I'd have thought that they just wouldn't have the manpower for this sort of thing. Stannis himself said that nine times out of ten, the army with the higher number of soldiers wins.

Did I miss something?

Jaime convinced the Tarlys to side with them and taken Highgarden because they have all the gold and food to survive the winter.

And Euron Greyjoy allied with Cersei giving her the largest fleet.

And I am betting you 100 dollars a Dragon will die, if not all 3 dragons.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

K, I watched episode three and now I gots OPINIONS.

...bad ones.

Spoiler: WOAH LONG

- Euron goes from Blackwater Bay to the ocean outside Casterly Rock in what seems like very little time at all. Getting to Casterly Rock from Blackwater Bay involves sailing around literally the entire continent [https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ab/33/59/ab33593e3cd987a2e877c0a36da17689--map-maker-map-of-westeros.jpg], and it takes Euron past both the Tyrells and the Dornish. It's a long trip through hostile territory that he manages to accomplish through the power of the writers wanting him to.

- Rather than ambushing the Unsullied at sea, where they are at a great disadvantage (and they are literally travelling the same direction at the same time, so it's amazing that these two massive fleets didn't bump into each other just by accident) Cersei's plan is to let the Unsullied storm Casterly Rock and then attack to destroy their boats, making Cersei's strategy both improbably competent and improbably stupid at the same time.

- Jaime mentions that the Unsullied cannot hold Casterly Rock because the Lannisters had emptied the stores before leaving. A few scenes before that, Sansa pointed out the difficult logistics involved in swiftly moving massive amounts of food in and out of a castle, but Cersei and Jaime - neither of whom are strategists - are confident enough in their predictions of Daenaerys' strategy that they are willing to completely empty those considerable grain stores based on a hunch. But where did they put the food? The army can't be hauling a castle's worth of food around, and they certainly can't be doing that while blitzkrieging the Tyrells.

- Casterly Rock is the castle next to Lannisport. [http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/5/57/MapOfWesterlandsCompleteGuide.png/revision/latest?cb=20120628184950] Jaime confidently states that Casterly Rock is worthless because the gold and food are gone and the Unsullied can't hold it, but the Unsullied could literally walk next door and sack the Lannister's capital city and main trade port. How could Euron stop them when the Ironborn are useless on land? How loyal would the Lannister's bannermen be when Cersei throws their lands, people and wealth to the wolves?

- Where the hell did the raven communication service go? How come the Tyrells didn't notice ten thousand Lannisters marching up to their capital before they were literally at their doorstep? How come they couldn't send a raven warning the Unsullied that the Lannisters aren't where they thought they were? A couple of episodes ago, the ravens are smart and fast enough to move information from Dragonstone to Winterfell in between scenes. But suddenly, no-one thinks of using them.

- Where the hell did the Lannisters get ten thousand men from? They've been supplying front-line manpower in a civil war for years. They're broke. Their gold mines are exhausted and they're massively in debt. It's mentioned multiple times earlier in the series that the Tyrells have so many men that they're almost a dealmaker just by themselves. And just two seasons ago, Cersei had to arm a bunch of religious fanatics because she didn't have enough soldiers. Fan wank puts the entire strength of Cersei's army at 15,000 [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4s7onz/spoilers_everything_the_current_armies_of/] across the entire continent, optimistically. That's assuming that no Lannister bannerman switch side to Daenaerys with the Tyrells based on the prospect of being able to eat the coming winter, and assuming that there was literally zero conflict between the still-massive Tyrell army and the Lannisters. The Tyrells are supposed to be able to field fifty to a hundred thousand [http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Military_strength#The_Reach] men. They ought've walked all over Jaime Lannister's ten thousand dudes.

- What the fuck is happening with the time scale? Euron, Jaime, Jon and Grey Worm are moving all across the continent at the speed of plot, trips that should take months. I can assume that the time has passed in between scenes or episodes, but then what's happening in that time? By my reckoning, Daenaerys has been sitting on Dragonstone for half a year now, and the people of King's Landing ought to have started starving to death long before then. Sure, food isn't a problem now that you've conquered the Tyrells off-screen, Cersei. But it must have taken months of in-universe time to get to that point. Who was feeding them before then? Jon makes the massive journey from Winterfell to Blackwater Bay in between episodes, but arrives just in time for Daenaerys to hear the news of Euron's ambush, which she must have heard of before then.

- How is Daenaerys so ill-informed? She has Varys and Tyrion on her side, and she can pop up on a dragon and just fly around to get a look whenever she wants! One day of clear skies, and she ought to know exactly where the Ironborn fleet is or isn't. She has medieval air superiority, but Tyrion is worried she might get hit with an arrow? She doesn't need to get within arrow range! She just needs to see!

- Daenaerys' allies are getting knocked out one by one, but that makes no sense. Ellaria Sand gets captured and thrown in a cell, sure. But the ships were all Ironborn and there weren't even that many Dornish soldiers on them. Dorne is a huge kingdom in its own right that's famous for never having been conquered. Its inhabitants clearly hate the Lannisters enough to go along with Ellaria's insane coup at the start of season six. Why assume that they're out of the game just because Ellaria got captured? Shouldn't she have a vizier or a general or a bannerman or someone who can go "Well, that's a setback, but it's great for me because it means I'm the new prince of Dorne. Let's send our armies to go back up the Tyrells, because we all still hate the Lannisters."

- Why did Melisandre leave Dragonstone without telling anyone about the White Walkers? She wants Jon and Daenaerys to team up. She believes that Jon is an agent of prophecy. She knows that the White Walkers are coming. But instead of hanging around to mediate between Jon and Daenaerys, or even just telling anyone about the zombie apocalypse, she chooses to scarper as soon as Jon lands on the beach because...she's afraid of confrontation? It can't be fear of death; Jon swore to kill her if he ever saw her in the North again. She's not in the North, and Jon's in no position to execute her in Daenaerys' court. It seems like she left because the writers wanted to have Dany be skeptical about the army of the dead, not because of any practical reason. Why not have Dany express that skepticism in the last episode when she first met Melisandre? That way Dany doesn't come off as ignorant and Melisandre doesn't come off as absurdly incompetent. "Oh, dang, forgot to tell the Queen with the zombie-destroying dragons about the impending zombie apocalypse. Nuts. Oh well, off to Volantis."

- Daenaerys is astonishingly insistent about swearing fealty given that she just arrived in Westeros and has been counselled to seek as many allies as possible. Why demand subservience from the king of a region infamous for its stubbornness? A region in open rebellion against the dynasty she considers to be usurpers? Why not discuss an alliance first, or even any kind of diplomatic overtures whatsoever other than demanding that Jon kneel? Did she demand that the Dornish bend the knee? Did she demand Olenna bend the knee? She's sitting there trying to intimidate Jon with her list of titles and her withering gaze, but she has to know that doesn't work with Northmen. She has to know that the Stark bannermen who have declared two kings in a few years and who have every reason to hate the Targaryens would go into open revolt if Jon swore fealty to her. If she doesn't know, why don't any of her advisers? Daenaerys spent years governing in Mereen specifically so that she could learn how to govern, and a huge part of that was learning when to compromise and when to use force. But all she remembers from that is that she has a killer death stare, and when all you have is a hammer...?

- Why are the people in the streets of King's Landing cheering Euron Greyjoy when he arrives? Cersei has been a terrible ruler and they all hate her. A couple of seasons ago, they threw shit at her and called her a ****. Everyone must know that she destroyed the Sept of Baelor, which conveniently exploded on the day of her trial while she was absent and all her enemies were present. She's a mass murderer. She took the throne without a blood claim to it. She's obviously still using the Mountain because how many other eight-foot-tall knights are there? And she's not even trying to hide her relationship with Jaime! That relationship calls into question the entire foundation of her rule! Everyone already suspects that her children were all illegitimate, she's just basically confirmed it, she murdered Margaery who was beloved by the smallfolk, she blew up the kingdom's largest cathedral, she can't even feed her citizens, but the people still love her enough to cheer for a random Greyjoy on the sole basis that he arrived with some captives who they've never seen before but who are important to Cersei for personal reasons. They don't know who Euron is. They don't know who Yara is. It's doubtful they know who Ellaria Sand is. But they're cheering for him because he captured them? I mean, in the first episode they didn't show any people rioting outside the walls of the Red Keep, but I assumed that they were there. Now this one does a backflip and goes "No, no, everybody loves her, see? Because she won at something, so they're cheering now!"

- When did Cersei become so competent? She goes from a complete trainwreck of a ruler after Tywin's death to outsmarting Tyrion and Varys. How? Why does the Iron Bank trust her when she says "I'll pay back my (astronomical) debt in two weeks." Why do they see Cersei as more trustworthy or stable than Daenaerys? What is it about her murderous insanity that gives them that impression? Was it when she blew up the Sept of Baelor, or when she made an alliance with a fleet of pirates? One of the things Game of Thrones really successfully hammered in is that Cersei is dumb. She doesn't succeed because she's a master schemer like Varys or Littlefinger. She succeeds through sheer brutality and an absolute absence of any moral restraints. So when did she become omniscient? Was it before or after her spymaster swapped sides?

Augh! Christ. That was like passing a sack of bricks.

That was not a good episode. I did not like it.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

But I'd like to ask where the Lannisters are getting all their men from anyway. I was under the impression that while they effectively won the war (in as much as Stannis and Robb being defeated), their own forces were severely mauled, while the Tyrells at least were relatively unscathed, and the Martells entirely unscathed prior to Oberyn's death. So even if Jaime is the best tactician in Westeros, I'd have thought that they just wouldn't have the manpower for this sort of thing. Stannis himself said that nine times out of ten, the army with the higher number of soldiers wins.

Did I miss something?

No! It is an excellent question!

When Tyrion said, "Cersei has ten thousand men at Casterly Rock," I literally started laughing out loud and my sister got mad at me. It was just so ridiculous. Ten thousand? From where? Robb Stark's entire army in Season 2 was ten thousand men, and he's supposed to have crushed the Lannisters every time he met them on the battlefield. Where are the Lannisters getting all these dudes from? How can they afford to have them just holed up in a big castle on the other side of the continent when Daenaerys is invading with five times as many soldiers from the east?

I used to scoff when people complained about how the showrunners don't share George RR Martin's grasp of military scale, but this is honestly ridiculous. She literally pulled soldiers out of thin air. I mean, these guys weren't around in season 5. That's the whole reason Cersei had to arm the religious wackos! She didn't have any dudes! If she did have dudes, she wouldn't have gotten arrested!

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Another goddamn thing I just remembered: the Iron Bank of Braavos is apparently invested in the slave trade, and use this as the rationale for backing the insane and unreliable Cersei as the "stable option" over the legitimate and fair-minded Daenaerys.

Problem? This is the Iron Bank of Braavos. The Free City of Braavos. It was founded by escaped slaves. In the books it's explicitly abolitionist [http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Braavos], and the slave trade is not permitted in its borders, nor does the Iron Bank deal openly with slavers.

Another defining trait of Braavosi culture is its hatred of slavery, a direct relic of the city's founding. The first law of Braavos- engraved on the arch that rises above the Long Canal- decrees that no man, woman, or child in the city is ever to be made a slave. In fact, Braavos is one of the very few places in Essos where slavery is not practiced.

So...what the fuck, writers? This is a pretty fucking massive retcon. Not only do the people of King's Landing suddenly want to cheer for Cersei, but the city most famous for hating slavery decides to back Cersei against Daenaerys because Daenaerys is an abolitionist. That's just...that's just so dumb.

I was enjoying this season so much before this episode! Was it written by a completely different set of people?

 

[oRevanchisto]

I'm not sure how I feel about the Tyrells getting defeated so easily. Isn't it rather out of character for everyone involved?

The Tyrells are supposed to be one of the stronger realms in Westeros. Tywin called them the only real rival of the Lannisters, Robert got his single defeat by their hand, their numbers made even Renly a serious contender and the Tyrells are led by the only person to be on something resembling equal footing with Tywin.

The Lannisters on the other hand are led by Cersei who is portrayed as rather incompetent and short sighed. Where did she suddenly get the competence to completely steamroll the entire Reach. I suppose Jaime did have a solid tactic.

And is it wrong that I have zero sympathy for the horrible fate inflicted on Elleria and the sand siblings? I mean, they did murder their entire family because they couldn't wrap their head around Oberyn willingly entering a fight and dying because he kept goofing around.

Again, it just shows the writers startling lack of care for detail, from the Iron Bank dealing in slavery to Highgarden being taken in a single day. First, the Lannister Army should have no where near "10,000 men" they just recently got out of the War of the Five Kings in which their army was decimated by both Robb Stark and Stannis Baratheon. They should barely have any forces left just to defend Casterly Rock. That was WHY they needed the marriage to the Tyrells in addition to the simple agriculture/food support that came with them. The Tyrell army should be completely fresh, they have barely used their armies in the war and their lands have been completely untouched by the War of the Five Kings. Even if Randyll Tarly betrayed them he is but one of their vassal Houses, we are the Florents? The Fossways, both green apple and red apple? The fucking HIGHTOWERS? You know, one of the most richest Houses where the fucking Citadel is located?

Alright, let's assume that somehow Tarly joining up with the Lannisters caught the Tyrells off guard such that their vassals couldn't come to their defense, a laughable suggestion but let's go with it, um how about they shut their gates? How exactly did Jaimie and Tarly manage to break through Highgarden's walls in one day, one of the largest castles in Westeros? Stannis held Storm's End for two whole years from the Tyrells surviving off of rats and onions. And, as I mentioned before the South was untouched by the war which means that Highgarden's larders should be stuffed to overflowing with food. They should be able to outlast any Lannister siege for years. A siege the Lannisters can't hope to maintain whilst also defending King's Landing and while the enemy controls Casterly Rock.

It's just pure nonsense. D&D just think of cool things they like to see happen or want a character to say and then do it, they never actually think about the details of these events. You can easily have the Lannisters taken Highgarden if you want but still have it make sense, perhaps you state how Tarly, like Tyrion, knows of a secret entrance into Highgarden allowing him to bypass their defenses. Easy. But no, we're led to believe the Lannisters somehow bred an entire new army after the war has devastated their forces and their coffers and took the largest castle in Westeros because some stiff faced dude also sided with them.

Fuck off and people wonder why everyone is so hesitant about seeing an alternative Civil War story by these guys.

 

[Erttheking]

But I'd like to ask where the Lannisters are getting all their men from anyway. I was under the impression that while they effectively won the war (in as much as Stannis and Robb being defeated), their own forces were severely mauled, while the Tyrells at least were relatively unscathed, and the Martells entirely unscathed prior to Oberyn's death. So even if Jaime is the best tactician in Westeros, I'd have thought that they just wouldn't have the manpower for this sort of thing. Stannis himself said that nine times out of ten, the army with the higher number of soldiers wins.

Did I miss something?

No! It is an excellent question!

When Tyrion said, "Cersei has ten thousand men at Casterly Rock," I literally started laughing out loud and my sister got mad at me. It was just so ridiculous. Ten thousand? From where? Robb Stark's entire army in Season 2 was ten thousand men, and he's supposed to have crushed the Lannisters every time he met them on the battlefield. Where are the Lannisters getting all these dudes from? How can they afford to have them just holed up in a big castle on the other side of the continent when Daenaerys is invading with five times as many soldiers from the east?

I used to scoff when people complained about how the showrunners don't share George RR Martin's grasp of military scale, but this is honestly ridiculous. She literally pulled soldiers out of thin air. I mean, these guys weren't around in season 5. That's the whole reason Cersei had to arm the religious wackos! She didn't have any dudes! If she did have dudes, she wouldn't have gotten arrested!

Tiny correction. Robb's forces were 20,000 men strong. Nonetheless, you have a good point. This was something even the books were pushing to their breaking point. Robb trounced the Lannisters every time they met on the field, and every time Tywin would just throw his money around to pull another army out of his ass. "You crushed that army? I have another. You crushed THAT army? I have another. You crushed THAT army, I have yet another." Fuck, the Lannister's win/loss ratio was actually pretty appalling. Edmure Tully engaged Tywin five times when Tywin was trying to push through the Riverlands and won EVERY TIME!

This is without going into the fact that apparently the Tyrells were defeated after one battle. Seriously? One battle? Did they have every last one of their soldiers at High Garden? And that wasn't really a smart move to go with when the episode it happened in was showing the brutal reality of storming a castle. IE, it's bloody, costly and only works if you're willing to accept high losses or have a trick up your sleeve. Tyrion had a trick up his sleeve, which was actually rather clever writing that called back to the earlier seasons, and something that allowed him to get men inside to throw open the gates. There's precedent in history of people being able to do that and radically shift castle battles in their favor. But High Garden? Lannisters march up and say "we win." No ace in the hole, no bloody storm, no prolonged siege. The fuck?

And even if the Rock was dry, that's still the ancestral seat of the Lannister house. Remember all the way back in season 2 when Theon took Winterfell? Remember what a devastating blow that was to Robb and the morale of his forces? There weren't gold mines under Winterfell. Morale is really important in warfare, particularly in middle age warfare. It's what keeps soldiers from deserting. If the Unsullied decide to raze it to the ground (which they should but probably won't) it would be devastating. It's not just something you can write off.

I'll give them credit though, it does make sense that they were able to get all the food out considering how long it naturally would've taken for Dany's forces to get there. Then again, that's like saying there was a plot hole so big it swallowed up a smaller plot hole.

Same with what you said about Bravos. The fuck?

I like the show for what it is, but I'm very much looking forward to what ACTUALLY happens when the books get released.

Well, silver lining here. We know for a fact that the books aren't being spoiled for us.

 

[Jute88]

I'm not sure how I feel about the Tyrells getting defeated so easily. Isn't it rather out of character for everyone involved?

The Tyrells are supposed to be one of the stronger realms in Westeros. Tywin called them the only real rival of the Lannisters, Robert got his single defeat by their hand, their numbers made even Renly a serious contender and the Tyrells are led by the only person to be on something resembling equal footing with Tywin.

Woah wait, Samwell's dad is in the show? Is the actor any good?

Also, is Vale still remaining neutral in the war, or have they joined forces with the North?

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I'm not sure how I feel about the Tyrells getting defeated so easily. Isn't it rather out of character for everyone involved?

The Tyrells are supposed to be one of the stronger realms in Westeros. Tywin called them the only real rival of the Lannisters, Robert got his single defeat by their hand, their numbers made even Renly a serious contender and the Tyrells are led by the only person to be on something resembling equal footing with Tywin.

Woah wait, Samwell's dad is in the show? Is the actor any good?

Also, is Vale still remaining neutral in the war, or have they joined forces with the North?

Here you go, he's basically another grim and Tywin-like man.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

But I'd like to ask where the Lannisters are getting all their men from anyway. I was under the impression that while they effectively won the war (in as much as Stannis and Robb being defeated), their own forces were severely mauled, while the Tyrells at least were relatively unscathed, and the Martells entirely unscathed prior to Oberyn's death. So even if Jaime is the best tactician in Westeros, I'd have thought that they just wouldn't have the manpower for this sort of thing. Stannis himself said that nine times out of ten, the army with the higher number of soldiers wins.

Did I miss something?

No! It is an excellent question!

When Tyrion said, "Cersei has ten thousand men at Casterly Rock," I literally started laughing out loud and my sister got mad at me. It was just so ridiculous. Ten thousand? From where? Robb Stark's entire army in Season 2 was ten thousand men, and he's supposed to have crushed the Lannisters every time he met them on the battlefield. Where are the Lannisters getting all these dudes from? How can they afford to have them just holed up in a big castle on the other side of the continent when Daenaerys is invading with five times as many soldiers from the east?

I used to scoff when people complained about how the showrunners don't share George RR Martin's grasp of military scale, but this is honestly ridiculous. She literally pulled soldiers out of thin air. I mean, these guys weren't around in season 5. That's the whole reason Cersei had to arm the religious wackos! She didn't have any dudes! If she did have dudes, she wouldn't have gotten arrested!

Well, silver lining here. We know for a fact that the books aren't being spoiled for us.

But than again the show pretty much has revealed that Jon Snow is Lyanna's son and not Ned Stark's Bastard. Big revelation that I wonder how the books will respond to this.

 

[Nielas]

Well, silver lining here. We know for a fact that the books aren't being spoiled for us.

But than again the show pretty much has revealed that Jon Snow is Lyanna's son and not Ned Stark's Bastard. Big revelation that I wonder how the books will respond to this.

I believe that this has been more or less confirmed to be also true in the books. When the show started to overtake the books Martin revealed to the producers three key plot elements from the future books and this was supposedly one of them. It's been a favorite theory of book fans for years anyway.

I actually really liked the episode from a dramatic point of view but all those plot holes are really bugging me now.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Not really a big deal, people have been calling that little twist for years now.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Saw episode three.

Whatever goodwill the show garnered with me during the okay moments in episode one are long gone.

Show is fucking stupid. All the CGI in the world isn't covering it up. Lazy, sloppy storytelling and horrendous writing. The actors are really struggling.

Ed Broadbent is killing it though. I want a spinoff of him and Sam in the Citadel.

I used to scoff when people complained about how the showrunners don't share George RR Martin's grasp of military scale, but this is honestly ridiculous. She literally pulled soldiers out of thin air. I mean, these guys weren't around in season 5. That's the whole reason Cersei had to arm the religious wackos! She didn't have any dudes! If she did have dudes, she wouldn't have gotten arrested!

People scoff about scale/distance as it pertains to a television show vs a series of novels, and to some degree the medium will dictate the pacing, but there comes a point where it becomes patently ludicrous and your world building collapses.

There's a horrendous lack of care and attention in the writing and it shows. Good shows care about detail. Mad Men had period appropriate stationary in desks that were never opened. Mr. Robot uses real world tech. Sopranos cast an actual mobster as a mobster.

Bad shows don't care. Game of Thrones is a bad television show. Not a bad adaptation, a bad show. It was good once. It's shit now. They can't write.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Saw episode three.

Whatever goodwill the show garnered with me during the okay moments in episode one are long gone.

Show is fucking stupid. All the CGI in the world isn't covering it up. Lazy, sloppy storytelling and horrendous writing. The actors are really struggling.

Ed Broadbent is killing it though. I want a spinoff of him and Sam in the Citadel.

I used to scoff when people complained about how the showrunners don't share George RR Martin's grasp of military scale, but this is honestly ridiculous. She literally pulled soldiers out of thin air. I mean, these guys weren't around in season 5. That's the whole reason Cersei had to arm the religious wackos! She didn't have any dudes! If she did have dudes, she wouldn't have gotten arrested!

People scoff about scale/distance as it pertains to a television show vs a series of novels, and to some degree the medium will dictate the pacing, but there comes a point where it becomes patently ludicrous and your world building collapses.

There's a horrendous lack of care and attention in the writing and it shows. Good shows care about detail. Mad Men had period appropriate stationary in desks that were never opened. Mr. Robot uses real world tech. Sopranos cast an actual mobster as a mobster.

Bad shows don't care. Game of Thrones is a bad television show. Not a bad adaptation, a bad show. It was good once. It's shit now. They can't write.

And now we come full circle.

I remember people saying that Game of Thrones is a spearheading example of Television/Series is where all the quality writers and directors are headed to because theatrical movies are dying and most movies that comes out of Movies suck or just mediocre.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I remember people saying that Game of Thrones is a spearheading example of Television/Series is where all the quality writers and directors are headed to because theatrical movies are dying and most movies that comes out of Movies suck or just mediocre.

As a long form essay in character/world creation, television is vastly superior to film and extremely talented people do enjoy working in the medium. The spearheading example was HBO during its "Golden Period", most specifically with Sopranos and The Wire. Showrunners like David Chase or David Simon were tempermental and demanding but their perfectionism netted results and ushered in a new era of "appointment television" with production values and artistic ambition previously unseen.

"Game of Thrones" was an adaptation of an existing work that seemed doomed to failure due to that work's byzantine complexity and ludicrous girth, but did a commendable job translating the author's major story beats to the screen with only a few missteps to sully it.

Then, they ran out of books. And now it's trite, wanky rubbish. Looks gorgeous (although the show's CGI ambitions still exceed their budget), well cast, but the writing is terrible, and the direction often sub par. Can't escape bad writing. Bad writing, bad show.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I remember people saying that Game of Thrones is a spearheading example of Television/Series is where all the quality writers and directors are headed to because theatrical movies are dying and most movies that comes out of Movies suck or just mediocre.

As a long form essay in character/world creation, television is vastly superior to film and extremely talented people do enjoy working in the medium. The spearheading examples was HBO during its "Golden Period", most specifically with Sopranos and The Wire. Showrunners like David Chase or David Simon were tempermental and demanding but their perfectionism netted results and ushered in a new era of "appointment television" with production values and artistic ambition previously unseen.

"but their perfectionism netted results and ushered in a new era of "appointment television" with production values and artistic ambition previously unseen"

Say hello to Rome:


Say hello to Band of Brothers:


And heck there is also the likes of Babylon 5 and Star Trek (especially TNG and DS9)

 

[BloatedGuppy]

"but their perfectionism netted results and ushered in a new era of "appointment television" with production values and artistic ambition previously unseen"

Say hello to Rome:


Say hello to Band of Brothers:


And heck there is also the likes of Babylon 5 and Star Trek (especially TNG and DS9)

The Wire and Sopranos both preceded Rome by several years, and Band of Brothers was a mini-series.

All due respect to Babylon 5 and Star Trek and their fans, but those shows don't really belong in the same conversation as some of the titles we're discussing.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

"but their perfectionism netted results and ushered in a new era of "appointment television" with production values and artistic ambition previously unseen"

Say hello to Rome:


Say hello to Band of Brothers:


And heck there is also the likes of Babylon 5 and Star Trek (especially TNG and DS9)

The Wire and Sopranos both preceded Rome by several years, and Band of Brothers was a mini-series.

All due respect to Babylon 5 and Star Trek and their fans, but those shows don't really belong in the same conversation as some of the titles we're discussing.

But Rome preceeded Game of Thrones.

The reason why Game of Thrones is more popular because it attracted geek culture with its fantasy setting (Even though the fantasy is increadibly downplayed) and better marketing of tits and action.

While Rome is a Historical Movie, and history is boring to some.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But Rome preceeded Game of Thrones.

The reason why Game of Thrones is more popular because it attracted geek culture with its fantasy setting (Even though the fantasy is increadibly downplayed) and better marketing of tits and action.

While Rome is a Historical Movie, and history is boring to some.

Game of Thrones is popular because of its high production values and (previously) excellent writing. We've had "fantasy settings" before that failed to draw audiences. Remember Willow? Setting alone does not guarantee turnout.

If you'll remember the genesis of this interaction (like, 3 posts ago), you suggested "Game of Thrones" was a trailblazer for quality television. I said it was no such thing, and listed the actual trailblazers. Rome preceding GoT means absolutely nothing in the context of that discussion. Additionally, as Rome was cancelled after only 2 seasons, it barely merits mentioning at all. Like Deadwood it was a show whose ambitions exceeded its grasp.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

But Rome preceeded Game of Thrones.

The reason why Game of Thrones is more popular because it attracted geek culture with its fantasy setting (Even though the fantasy is increadibly downplayed) and better marketing of tits and action.

While Rome is a Historical Movie, and history is boring to some.

Game of Thrones is popular because of its high production values and (previously) excellent writing. We've had "fantasy settings" before that failed to draw audiences. Remember Willow? Setting alone does not guarantee turnout.

If you'll remember the genesis of this interaction (like, 3 posts ago), you suggested "Game of Thrones" was a trailblazer for quality television. I said it was no such thing, and listed the actual trailblazers. Rome preceding GoT means absolutely nothing in the context of that discussion. Additionally, as Rome was cancelled after only 2 seasons, it barely merits mentioning at all. Like Deadwood it was a show whose ambitions exceeded its grasp.

Apoligise then I realized I was rambling because of that one statment in your post said.

My initial statement was me lashing out at this reviewer I remember who criticized the Warcraft movie and uses Game of Thrones as a comparison against it.

But both Warcraft and Game of Thrones made me realize that there is no single person in the movie and television making buisness that can treat these properties the adaptions they truly deserve.

Like does everyone who writes for movies and TV just suck now?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Apoligise then I realized I was rambling because of that one statment in your post said.

My initial statement was me lashing out at this reviewer I remember who criticized the Warcraft movie and uses Game of Thrones as a comparison against it.

But both Warcraft and Game of Thrones made me realize that there is no single person in the movie and television making buisness that can treat these properties the adaptions they truly deserve.

Like does everyone who writes for movies and TV just suck now?

Yeah Warcraft was pretty horrendous. Too much fan pandering while at the same time being a completely hapless adaptation. Suspect there was some studio/director power struggle there. Jones is a competent director but should probably stick to smaller, more personal fare.

As for movies and TV, there's plenty of excellent stuff out there. "Warcraft" and the current run of Game of Thrones aren't among them, but that's life. The source material for GoT was so hard to develop it's a miracle we got 3.5 decently watchable seasons and that the whole thing didn't crash and burn after the pilot.