Gays and Homophobia

[comet5002]

It is not a choice to be gay. Of this I know and agree with.

It IS a choice to put yourself out there and hurt the stereotype of homosexuals by acting like a flaming peacock. I know plenty of homosexual males who you would never know were homosexual by the way they acted or dressed. They like football. They like video games. Etc. It's just freaking annoying when gays are flaming. They're crying for attention, no matter if it's positive or negative.

I don't like girls who have boy haircuts, but that's probably because I don't like short hair on girls in general. Other than that, I could care less about butch girls. I just look at them as tomboys.

But would a straight man who was the inverse of a Tomboy annoy you as much as a Flamer (I hope that means what I think it does). And why is a butch girl just a tomboy and doesn't bother you, it is pretty much a female equivalent to a overly-femine gay man.

Because it's not unnatural for most girls to wear what is considered "boy clothes". Even though they are trying to say "Hey I'm a lesbian so what" which infuriates me just as much, it's not as noticeable, whereas a male wearing mascara and eyeliner and a too tight pink wifebeater with skinny jeans is.

 

[UncertaintyPrinciple]

While it's not my post you quoted, I would like to say that I'm not a fan of homosexuality either. I like plenty of homosexual people but the act of homosexual sex is something I'm not a fan of. I wouldn't do it and don't want to see it, and thinking about it puts me off a little.
Does that make sence?

Now, I don't share Kimarous' view but I did share his lack of support for the gay community. I've always had gay friends (I just didn't always know they were gay) but I always felt that marriage was something that men and women do and that gay couples didn't need it, then earlier this year I realised that even though I may not necissarily want gay people to get married, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to.
And since then I realised how much of a douche I was being, now I fully support gay marriage along with gay rights in general (as far as I'm aware the only discrepancy in my country is marriage and adoption laws.)

I think you'll find plenty of people who support gay rights think this too, they just don't say it because it can often be misinterpreted.

StBishop, what about homosexuality puts you off? Is it the idea of a same-sex relationship or intercourse and, if intercourse, is it only man-to-man, femal-to-female or both? And why did you feel that same-sex couples shouldn't marry?

 

[UncertaintyPrinciple]

Because it's not unnatural for most girls to wear what is considered "boy clothes". Even though they are trying to say "Hey I'm a lesbian so what" which infuriates me just as much, it's not as noticeable, whereas a male wearing mascara and eyeliner and a too tight pink wifebeater with skinny jeans is.

So is your problem with Overly-femine gay men being that they are to different to what would "normally" happen in society but with Butch, tomboy lesbians it is not so uncommon for most women to look like that?

 

[Falseprophet]

Straight male, and am supportive of GLBTQ rights. I can't think of any rational reason to be opposed to them. Any argument that gay rights opponents bring up seems to fall into three categories: i) one that involves straight people too and has already been accepted by society, ii) one based solely on religious grounds (automatic fail for me), and iii) one based solely on personal discomfort with non-hetero sex, where my response is, you don't have to like it, but your discomfort is not a basis to deny other people essential freedoms.

Anyway, yeah, gay rights FTW. But I don't even think marriage should be a civil institution so no I don't stand for gay marriage because I don't stand for marriage sanctioned by the government. Marriage has been turned from a mutually binding agreement between two(or more?) people to an agreement between that couple and the government. So yeah.

I have a slightly different take on this: marriage was never a mutually binding agreement just between two people--someone else was always involved, whether the state, religious institutions, or the families. Even in modern, egalitarian, developed societies, long-term relationships involve at least one of the following important things: money, property and children. When relationships fail, as many of them do, there has to be some system in place to deal with what happens to those things.

I'd prefer to see the state get out of the "marriage" business, and offer civil unions to both straight and gay couples. If the couple wants to call it a "marriage", they can, but the term would have no legal definition, just a social/cultural one. If they want to get recognized by their church, they can do that too, but unless they also get a civil union from the state, it has no legal weight.

This way:

i) Money, Property and Children are seen too when relationships break down
ii) The state doesn't make moral judgments on the definition of "marriage"
iii) Churches who don't want to marry gays don't have to; churches that want to marry gays can do so.

 

[comet5002]

In case no one got the real meaning of my last post, I'm not for OR against gays. I couldn't care less, actually.

What I AM against is gay males who persist in wearing clothing made for girls and talking with that BLOODY ANNOYING gay accent and swinging their hips and then getting all up in your grill for staring at them awkwardly.

See Kurt from Glee for an example.

THOSE types make me want to punch kittens, because they're basically saying "Yeah, I'm gay, what are YOU going to do about it?" which goes along with what I was saying earlier.

That is all.

It's possible that at least some of these people have gender identity disorder, that is that while their body is male their brain identifies as female, in which case they may not be trying to, for lack of a better phrase, throw their gayness at you, but are instead doing what comes naturaly to them.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but then they need to man up and accept the fact that they're in whatever gender body they were born with, and that is how they'll remain unless they have enough money to have a transgenderal surgery. Crying about the fact that you weren't born a girl isn't going to change anything.

 

[Andrew Bohan]

I'm strongly against gay acts because they go against Jesus.

I don't hate gays. I love them - just the same as I love any other person. However, I am against gay acts, such as marriage.

You forgot The Village People

In the navy, yes you can sail the seven seas...

 

[comet5002]

Because it's not unnatural for most girls to wear what is considered "boy clothes". Even though they are trying to say "Hey I'm a lesbian so what" which infuriates me just as much, it's not as noticeable, whereas a male wearing mascara and eyeliner and a too tight pink wifebeater with skinny jeans is.

So is your problem with Overly-femine gay men being that they are to different to what would "normally" happen in society but with Butch, tomboy lesbians it is not so uncommon for most women to look like that?

Basically.

It'd be hypocritical of me to say it doesn't bother me at all, it does. Just not as much.

 

[UncertaintyPrinciple]

I'm strongly against gay acts because they go against Jesus.

I don't hate gays. I love them - just the same as I love any other person. However, I am against gay acts, such as marriage.

What of Jesus' teachings that you follow condemn Homosexuality? Do you base your opinion solely on your religion?

 

[bl4ckh4wk64]

I really couldn't care less about gay people/marriages. But, when they start complaining over a name and social security benefits, then it starts to annoy me. Let me put it in context. I'm from California, yet I voted to for that gay marriage ban. Why? Because they already have something in California that is almost exactly the same as marriage. It's called a civil union, and the only differences between marriage and civil union (besides the names) is that marriage gets you social security benefits and is recognized most, if not all, religions.

 

[UncertaintyPrinciple]

Because it's not unnatural for most girls to wear what is considered "boy clothes". Even though they are trying to say "Hey I'm a lesbian so what" which infuriates me just as much, it's not as noticeable, whereas a male wearing mascara and eyeliner and a too tight pink wifebeater with skinny jeans is.

So is your problem with Overly-femine gay men being that they are to different to what would "normally" happen in society but with Butch, tomboy lesbians it is not so uncommon for most women to look like that?

Basically.

It'd be hypocritical of me to say it doesn't bother me at all, it does. Just not as much.

Thank you for your help, I appreciate it

 

[Agayek]

It is your choice how much depth you want to go into, this thread is merely an intellectual discussion. The amount you want to contribute is up to you

I can't speak for the second item on his list, but the "Christian" stance is based on a number of scripture passages. I believe most of them are in the Torah, and the most prominent I want to say is in Deuteronomy specifically, but it's been ages since I last read them so I can't be sure. Essentially, this passage says that the followers of the holy law will stone anyone who "lays with a man as he would with a woman".

The funny thing about it is that it was most likely not even written as a primarily anti-gay measure. The vast majority of the laws in Abrahamic scripture (excluding Islamic versions, simply because I don't have enough exposure to them to know) were written as a way to protect and promote the group. For example, kosher foods were those things least likely to spoil and carry disease without refrigeration. It boiled down semi-complex quasi-scientific health guidelines to "Because YHWH said so".

I'm fairly certain the laws against homosexuality were put in place simply because gay couples cannot conceive, and if they do not produce children they are limiting the growth of their society (and their life expectancies were typically well under 50 years). Thus, being gay is bad "because God said so".

 

[UncertaintyPrinciple]

I really couldn't care less about gay people/marriages. But, when they start complaining over a name and social security benefits, then it starts to annoy me. Let me put it in context. I'm from California, yet I voted to for that gay marriage ban. Why? Because they already have something in California that is almost exactly the same as marriage. It's called a civil union, and the only differences between marriage and civil union (besides the names) is that marriage gets you social security benefits and is recognized most, if not all, religions.

But why can't Gays have the exact same as Straight couples, why do you believe there should be any discrepancy?

 

[The Rockerfly]

I'm a straight male but I support people who want to be in love with someone of their own gender. However I don't believe they should be allowed to adopt children because you need a balance between a male and a female as a child.

For example, if I have a kid with a girl and I just left one day, the child will be much more heavily influenced by a female and could potentially find it difficult to associate with people of the same sex. Having two fathers or two mothers could make it even worse.

 

[Agayek]

I really couldn't care less about gay people/marriages. But, when they start complaining over a name and social security benefits, then it starts to annoy me. Let me put it in context. I'm from California, yet I voted to for that gay marriage ban. Why? Because they already have something in California that is almost exactly the same as marriage. It's called a civil union, and the only differences between marriage and civil union (besides the names) is that marriage gets you social security benefits and is recognized most, if not all, religions.

To be fair, the legal benefits of a marriage are significantly better than those of a civil union.

Also, we've tried the whole "Separate but Equal" thing before. It didn't work so well then.

 

[X10J]

Were it only so easy. Its a mental disorder. I'm afraid that it's not quite as simple manning up. It's a trait disorder, biology, very rarely can personality traits be altered. While I'm not very expirienced on G.I.D. myself I'm not certain of any recorded cases of it being altered.

 

[Andrew Bohan]

It is your choice how much depth you want to go into, this thread is merely an intellectual discussion. The amount you want to contribute is up to you

I can't speak for the second item on his list, but the "Christian" stance is based on a number of scripture passages. I believe most of them are in the Torah, and the most prominent I want to say is in Deuteronomy specifically, but it's been ages since I last read them so I can't be sure. Essentially, this passage says that the followers of the holy law will stone anyone who "lays with a man as he would with a woman".

The funny thing about it is that it was most likely not even written as a primarily anti-gay measure. The vast majority of the laws in Abrahamic scripture (excluding Islamic versions, simply because I don't have enough exposure to them to know) were written as a way to protect and promote the group. For example, kosher foods were those things least likely to spoil and carry disease without refrigeration. It boiled down semi-complex quasi-scientific health guidelines to "Because YHWH said so".

I'm fairly certain the laws against homosexuality were put in place simply because gay couples cannot conceive, and if they do not produce children they are limiting the growth of their society (and their life expectancies were typically well under 50 years). Thus, being gay is bad "because God said so".

Off topic. It's a bit like 40 days and 40 nights being an old jewish hyperbole or "Honor your mother and father and your days will be long" from the 10 commandments. They harken back to a historical need to that group at the time. Sometimes the easiest way to deal with it is honestly to say something like god did it. It's a bit like "Do it or I'll fucking punch you" in essence. It's easier than going into a complex debate.

 

[JackKrauserFtw]

What I would like to know from this community is:

Who here is gay/lesbian/bi?
Who is against/for gays/lesbians/bi?
And why are you against/for gays/lesbians/bi?

This is not a chance to bash people due to there views and/or life choices. This is to gain understanding and insight, not start a flame war. Thanks for your help

P.S: I wasn't sure where to put this so there has been a repost, if this offends anyone I will remove it immeadiately

TBH, the day we stop labeling each other and just see each other as people is the day discrimination ends, it's best to just ignore it as illogical as that sounds, the more attention you bring to it the worse, not to mention if you start giving people special rights, then they are further distanced from what society considers normal. Its a very touchy area filled with black and white and all shades of grey and there is really no one answer. This is my view on people

 

[X10J]

In case no one got the real meaning of my last post, I'm not for OR against gays. I couldn't care less, actually.

What I AM against is gay males who persist in wearing clothing made for girls and talking with that BLOODY ANNOYING gay accent and swinging their hips and then getting all up in your grill for staring at them awkwardly.

See Kurt from Glee for an example.

THOSE types make me want to punch kittens, because they're basically saying "Yeah, I'm gay, what are YOU going to do about it?" which goes along with what I was saying earlier.

That is all.

It's possible that at least some of these people have gender identity disorder, that is that while their body is male their brain identifies as female, in which case they may not be trying to, for lack of a better phrase, throw their gayness at you, but are instead doing what comes naturaly to them.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but then they need to man up and accept the fact that they're in whatever gender body they were born with, and that is how they'll remain unless they have enough money to have a transgenderal surgery. Crying about the fact that you weren't born a girl isn't going to change anything.

Were it only so easy. Its a mental disorder. I'm afraid that it's not quite as simple manning up. It's a trait disorder, biology, very rarely can personality traits be altered. While I'm not very expirienced on G.I.D. myself I'm not certain of any recorded cases of it being altered.

 

[X10J]

biology's tough.

 

[StBishop]

While it's not my post you quoted, I would like to say that I'm not a fan of homosexuality either. I like plenty of homosexual people but the act of homosexual sex is something I'm not a fan of. I wouldn't do it and don't want to see it, and thinking about it puts me off a little.
Does that make sence?

Now, I don't share Kimarous' view but I did share his lack of support for the gay community. I've always had gay friends (I just didn't always know they were gay) but I always felt that marriage was something that men and women do and that gay couples didn't need it, then earlier this year I realised that even though I may not necissarily want gay people to get married, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to.
And since then I realised how much of a douche I was being, now I fully support gay marriage along with gay rights in general (as far as I'm aware the only discrepancy in my country is marriage and adoption laws.)

I think you'll find plenty of people who support gay rights think this too, they just don't say it because it can often be misinterpreted.

StBishop, what about homosexuality puts you off? Is it the idea of a same-sex relationship or intercourse and, if intercourse, is it only man-to-man, femal-to-female or both? And why did you feel that same-sex couples shouldn't marry?

I suppose I worded that wrong, I'm not put off by homosexuality, it's fine, I mean seeing people of the same sex staring lovingly into each others eyes, it's not off-putting as much as strange, like seeing a fish with legs walking on land.
I don't think it's bad, it's just so alien that I'm a little uncomfortable.

Where as homosexual couples kissing I'm fine with.

Now onto the same sex intercourse. I don't find lesbian sex offputting because I don't see it as sex. Does that make sence? I know it is sex to them, and probably everyone else in the world, but there's no penetration by genitalia, maybe that's why.
But if we took, say lesbian porn, I wouldn't be put off by that, nor would I be put off by gay (as in male only) porn. Because it's porn. Which is weird I know.

It's homosexual love-making that I don't really like (not dislike, just don't like) and I think it's that same, alien feeling.

Also, I think it's because if someone talks about say, oral sex, I think of what it would be like, and I don't really like the idea of performing oral sex on a dude. Same with if people talk about vasectomies, I feel like someone's talking about doing it to me, not plesant.

I don't really know why I was against same sex marriage. Maybe because I was afraid of change?
I can't explain it, and am a little embarrased of the fact that I was actually against it.
Perhaps it has to do with me wanting marrage to remain the way I saw it as a child?
My view of marriage was shaken alot by the circumstances of my parent's break up, and I feel like my mother's subsiqunet re-marriage is immoral and I was, and still am, very angry that she was married in a church, the state marriage didn't offend me but the fact that a preist sanctioned it is a pretty slanderous act in my mind.
Maybe that had a hand. Who knows?

Have I answered all of your questions?

EDIT: Having thought more about it, I remebered the realisation I had about 3 years ago that homosexuality isn't just, "Being attracted sexually to the same gender" it's "Being attracted to sexually and falling in love with the same gender."

I found that a shocking realisation and perhaps as I've only realised it pretty recently it's taking me longer to get use to it. I mean, I've always known that people can be attracted to the same sex, It was explained to me at the same time as the birds and the bees at about age 4 or 5 when my mum became pregnant with my sister.

The first time I saw two guys say "I love you" in a non-platonic way was at age 17 and it spun my head. I hadn't really thought about homosexuality all that much and it just hadn't occured to me.

Perhaps that's why I'm put off by same sex lovemaking.