Girls and the games aimed at men

[ZippyDSMlee]

There could be more female appeasement out there. True that the gaming industry is widely male-dominated, but that's changing and I think that the gaming companies are recognizing that little by little. Are they doing this enough? I'd say no, and that's true in so many other aspects of our society too. Women have come a long way, but they still have a ways to go to be equally recognized.

Real women are still not depicted properly in games. Despite a severe lack of muscles on most of them, women are able to do these amazing feats that require much more body strength than their character models would imply. Who do I blame for this? People like Angelina Jolee. She wanted to be a model for women, but I think she's hurting them. She looks like she can barely open a door let alone pull of martial arts with the destructive force that her characters can or pull off those impressive acrobatics. The supermodel woman is creating impossible standards. can women be strong and still look beautiful? Yes. Can a woman look like a tiny-bodied stick and still be able to take care of herself the way that games imply she can? Some yes and some no of course, but the point is that games and the other parts of the media provide only one example of what a woman can be (and therefore what she should be). According to video games, a woman must have breasts that are at least a C cup, a gorgeous face, fit (but not too fit, guys don't like muscles most of the time), feminine, and revealing. She can't be too deep, either, she can only inspire the protagonist to be deeper himself. A woman is a lot like a vase: she is meant to be beautiful and enhance the environment, but doesn't actually affect that environment.


Some may ask if this is a big deal. I say of course it is. Many say that there is no need for feminism because women are equal now. This is not entirely true, not by a long shot. We need to ask questions like what you've presented or we'll never move toward true equality.

For those who say "If I were a girl, I wouldn't care": You're not a girl so you don't know what it's like. And no, you can't really guess what it's like either, the same way girls can't truly understand what it's like to be a guy.

There, I'm done. I'm sure that will inspire plenty of flames to be spewed my way, but that's what I think about the subject.

I hate over done character designs either it be in muscle or breast, male or female, but I has issues with certain aesthetics some are ok some make my brains hurt especially anything over a DD...good lord..... give it a break already my back hurts just looking at them ><.

As for

For those who say "If I were a girl, I wouldn't care": You're not a girl so you don't know what it's like. And no, you can't really guess what it's like either, the same way girls can't truly understand what it's like to be a guy.

It really depends on the individual, some people are able to imagine all the steress'ers/stress points a person of race/color/creed goes though in life and can make an intelligent even if assumed opinion...but then again most people can;t think past themselves long enough to be let to make such a opinion. LOL

I may be male but I tend to side on most arguments from a females perspective...simply because they have to put up with us males

True, some people can come close to understanding some of the stresses that different peoples experience, but I still think that people simply cannot obtain the true understanding of being the "other" because they are not that gender/race/creed and in some cases could never be. It's just not the same; it's like you said: Imagining. one can imagine the intense pain of losing an arm or other appendage by comparing it to less intense pains that they've had before, but it still can't be duplicated and truly comprehended until it actually happens. However, I don't want to imply that we should never attempt to sympathize like you're saying that some can. I actually recommend quite the contrary. I encourage that people try to imagine what it's like to be the person/group in question. You're saying some people can imagine it. I offer that everyone should imagine it (to springboard off of a good point).

That being said, I respect your point of view despite my inability to completely agree with it. I definitely agree with that last part on a lighter note

Another good way is to talk to your friends, particularly those you are not trying to bag/sleep with ect, friends you can trust your whole portions of your life with not petty acquaintances people call friends these days... I have had a few close female friends over the years just talking to them as a friend about anything alot can be shared, we once talked about what society wants from males and females, for males they want them to be strong, silent to the point of being unemotional and decisive and I am non of those things 0-o I am taint amount to a drooling imbecile whos a bit of emotional lush TMI aside "they" want females to be meek, wish washy and able to tell the difference in 200+ colors/styles(brain explodes from trying to comprehend it)... I mean seriously screw the stereotypes they went out of fashion ages ago.... we are human first .I.E. fickle individuals, at least that's how I was raised.....being dropped on the head repeatedly aside

Edit
We also had a good talk why girls love bad boys, if anything its the confidence, confident people are attractive. AS for what boys like well...anything with curves and skirt seems to work well enough =0-o=

edit

Agree, disagree it dose not matter much as long as opinions are heard and respected, I do understand that you'd like to see more muscle on females than there are I just do not like so many hard lines on either males or females, that and large orbs attached the chest area is also annoying to my core design aesthetic, but that's just what I'd like to see more of, at the least more temperance(less super muscled/ bulging chest either male or female) in modern designs. I do agree wholeheartedly that female designs tend to be based on generic male fantasy rather than anything else.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Spoiler: snip

Bleh. This complaint annoys me. What is the big deal of playing as some guy in the Army? Or some Spartan in Halo that happens to be a guy? You play the game to enjoy the game, thats why you bought it in the first place, no? There must be something in there that you're having fun with. Just because you can't play as a girl, doesn't make the game any worse.

Look, its not worth it for game developers to put even more time and effort into making a female character model and then adding a slew of customization features just so you feel more at home playing as a girl online.

Why must we always find something to complain about? The gameplay wasn't enough to tide you over? You have to have female character models as well?

Umm dude...do you know how many boys would be scrambling to play as the female models? A good majority of them would rather look at something pretty and female being filled with holes than something manly...being....oh gawd...><

I think it's messed up that people think that females have no place in MW2. Lets face it reprisents modern warfare just like WW2 games reprisent WW2, females have a place in modern wars and it's fucked up that people still think that women can't fight in wars today.

They don't fight in wars. They may incidentally end up fighting in places like Iraq/Afghanistan, but it's not like they're running around sabotaging military bases with SAS or Delta. Having female soldiers in MW2 multiplayer wouldn't fit the setting. As Run DMC once sang, it's like that and that's the way it is.

Yes and no, its one more of where perspective,assumption and fiction collide , war for the most part is fought on the ground by males, while not strictly true it is perceived that way and msot fiction is wrote along that perspective.

You make it sound like it's just a myth.

Its difficult enough for modern game writers to write in gender roles without cocking things up if you will...but not assigning people roles and to ignore their gender and societal assumptions is an impossibility.... sure I would like to see it done.... but I don't think they could handle it... their lil generic brains would fry....

Excuse me but i have a lil generic brain and i don't get this.Why should we ignore,for instance,genders?Are they bad,are they wrong,are they an illusion?
While we're at it,nowdays i find it hard why it's so bad calling a man "man" and a woman "woman".

A myth...not so much but well just because its a hang up with how the army functions today should make that reality an absolute in fictional media....

You're better than me a fool who thinks he can barely write
Anyway its not so much about ignoring gender as all the predictable traps "pop media" writers place them in, you can have a modern war game set with an equal amount of genders in it and ignore the whole male/female thing(or even maybe have it setup where they are desensitized and trained not to give a holy fuck about gender) and focus instead on "who"(I am so and so from someplace and became this because of my own will and interests) they are instead of "what"(I am a girl/boy/homosexual/insert generic gender type into slot A,who likes or hates guys/people/dogs/ insert social issues into slot B,who admired my father/Mother/ insert parental issues into slot C and became a solider/marine/warrior/ insert generic alpha male title into slot D) they are.


Get it or did I talk myself into a corner again? 0-o

Those "generic" things you just described makes the whole "who am i" package.

Whatever though,feminine men and mucho women are the "trend" of our days.Who am i to be an obstacle to that.
inb4 "that's not what i meant.that's not what i post" etc etc etc

Yes but the trouble is they focus on the generic stuff to the point they kill the character with generalizations, this is why I hate most "pop media" writing its not smart,witty or deep, its filler to fill the gaps in action and movement.

Look at space above and beyond or Galactica or even star trek(or GI joe to a degree), yes they differentiate male and female, yes they may use generic setups now and then but they do not lose the story or the writing to the mere difference of gender which most "pop media" writers do because doing anything else takes to much time and effort and tends to be lost on their audience anyway.......

Like, ummm...dude, do you know how many people don't really give a shit either? If you are that conscientious about what character model you are playing as, I suspect you have a little more to worry about than playing as a woman or a man.

No one cares until it starts making them money then sooner rather than later they wont care again because they made money off it.... kinda like modern gaming....it sucks...when will it stop sucking? oh and your point was I could not hear it for the sucking sound

 

[Frankydee]

Somehow after reading the first two paragraphs of your statement I am forced to recall the female characters out of the Unreal Tournament series. More specifically the gold edition I played as a kid. It's still a lot of fun.

But anyway I figure it all comes back down to generalizing gender roles. Yea, sure women can be badass too but I somehow get the idea that game developers probably don't find the necessity in it since you'd probably be hard pressed to find a women's rights movement who'd complain about the lack of gender choices in a game.

This probably doesn't sound like much coming from a guy but I just don't think too much into it. And maybe I'm just desensitized to the whole idea but honestly, I don't really see how it matters.

 

[DeathQuaker]

I'm curious though, what are the demographics for female players? I remember looking stats up once but I think they were for quite a few years ago and I can no longer remember them (plus I'm too lazy to google them)

According to the ESA, if you count all kinds of video games (all genres, all platforms), 48% of gamers are women.

Most people who are uncomfortable with this statistic are quick to claim that all 48% are "casuals" (whatever the hell that means). It is true, however, when you break down by genre, more women play primarily simulation, puzzle, and role playing games. FPSs in particular have a very high male population. Still, as the OP points out, there is a female audience for all kinds of games, just as there is a male audience for all kinds of games.

(Me, personally, I'm a woman gamer and I play just about every kind of game except FPSs, and that only because I'm one of those weirdoes who gets motion sick from the first-person perspective. I have to play Fallout 3 in 3rd person or I get ill.)

Personally, I think if you know all kinds of people play your game, you should work to be inclusive of all potential players, if and where at all possible. Understanding that there are limitations in terms of how many character models can a dev afford to animate and record voice work for, it still makes sense to make your game appeal to a wider market in any way you can and within reason. Why restrict your marketing to just men of 18-25 when just a slight shift in game design, nothing that compromises the game engine, theme, or gameplay, will get more people outside that demographic to buy as well? More sales is good, I always thought.

On the other hand, include images or language that is sure to make someone feel left out, that's more bad word of mouth for you that'll hurt your sales and your reputation. Maybe in a lot of cases, not enough that it compromises profit but again--why go out of your way to lose money? Course, it would be nice to think software devs would design games to be more inclusive just because they're respectful of the human race, but I'm too realistic to believe that'd ever happen. So may as well argue for the bottom line.

 

[Joseph_Joestar]

...i'd like to see more realistic characters, both male and female. that's all i'm saying

Here, here. Another reason why I love Jade in Beyond Good & Evil.

My main complaint with both male and female protagonists is lot of games don't do a lot to give them a lot of character. It's bad enough when you notice a shitty character. The ridiculous super stereotypes are bad on both sides, but the guys tend to have more character depth. Not surprising since guys are mostly writing these characters, and most writers write what they know or like. If the ladies could get that much attention beyond being the typical super model, smart-ass, mega *****, they'd be more endearing and likable.

Both of the girls in Uncharted 2 are actually really good examples of great female characters. That sounds hypocritical right? Since they're like the bad girl and good girl stereotype. Let me explain, despite the fact Chloe is pretty much everything that I described above, you still see hints of further depth in there. You can really see that she's visibly torn when you finally catch up to her on the train stage. She's stuck in a situation she can't really do much about, and Nathan just had to go in and complicate matters. Her actions aren't right, but if she were a much more shallow character, she would've shot Nathan on the spot instead of letting Flynn do it. If she were more shallow, she wouldn't care about Nathan's or Elena's feelings either.

I think the thing for me that really makes the difference is how well developed are the motivations are for any particular character. And most of the girls that appear in games, seem to serve no purpose other than to be wank material since you never really get to know them very well beyond them either kicking ass and taking names, or not doing much of anything but be some form of trophy at the end.

 

[Halo Fanboy]

Real women are still not depicted properly in games. Despite a severe lack of muscles on most of them, women are able to do these amazing feats that require much more body strength than their character models would imply. Who do I blame for this? People like Angelina Jolee. She wanted to be a model for women, but I think she's hurting them. She looks like she can barely open a door let alone pull of martial arts with the destructive force that her characters can or pull off those impressive acrobatics. The supermodel woman is creating impossible standards. can women be strong and still look beautiful? Yes. Can a woman look like a tiny-bodied stick and still be able to take care of herself the way that games imply she can? Some yes and some no of course, but the point is that games and the other parts of the media provide only one example of what a woman can be (and therefore what she should be). According to video games, a woman must have breasts that are at least a C cup, a gorgeous face, fit (but not too fit, guys don't like muscles most of the time), feminine, and revealing. She can't be too deep, either, she can only inspire the protagonist to be deeper himself. A woman is a lot like a vase: she is meant to be beautiful and enhance the environment, but doesn't actually affect that environment.

I think that you're far to hung up on realism here, and I can't even think of any games right now of super strong women that aren't magic based beside a few JRPG girls. ANd saying that women in games are all the same seems short sighted. I don't think you would consider Laura Croft and Princess Peach the same.

 

[Mr.Pandah]

Spoiler: snip

Bleh. This complaint annoys me. What is the big deal of playing as some guy in the Army? Or some Spartan in Halo that happens to be a guy? You play the game to enjoy the game, thats why you bought it in the first place, no? There must be something in there that you're having fun with. Just because you can't play as a girl, doesn't make the game any worse.

Look, its not worth it for game developers to put even more time and effort into making a female character model and then adding a slew of customization features just so you feel more at home playing as a girl online.

Why must we always find something to complain about? The gameplay wasn't enough to tide you over? You have to have female character models as well?

Umm dude...do you know how many boys would be scrambling to play as the female models? A good majority of them would rather look at something pretty and female being filled with holes than something manly...being....oh gawd...><

I think it's messed up that people think that females have no place in MW2. Lets face it reprisents modern warfare just like WW2 games reprisent WW2, females have a place in modern wars and it's fucked up that people still think that women can't fight in wars today.

They don't fight in wars. They may incidentally end up fighting in places like Iraq/Afghanistan, but it's not like they're running around sabotaging military bases with SAS or Delta. Having female soldiers in MW2 multiplayer wouldn't fit the setting. As Run DMC once sang, it's like that and that's the way it is.

Yes and no, its one more of where perspective,assumption and fiction collide , war for the most part is fought on the ground by males, while not strictly true it is perceived that way and msot fiction is wrote along that perspective.

You make it sound like it's just a myth.

Its difficult enough for modern game writers to write in gender roles without cocking things up if you will...but not assigning people roles and to ignore their gender and societal assumptions is an impossibility.... sure I would like to see it done.... but I don't think they could handle it... their lil generic brains would fry....

Excuse me but i have a lil generic brain and i don't get this.Why should we ignore,for instance,genders?Are they bad,are they wrong,are they an illusion?
While we're at it,nowdays i find it hard why it's so bad calling a man "man" and a woman "woman".

A myth...not so much but well just because its a hang up with how the army functions today should make that reality an absolute in fictional media....

You're better than me a fool who thinks he can barely write
Anyway its not so much about ignoring gender as all the predictable traps "pop media" writers place them in, you can have a modern war game set with an equal amount of genders in it and ignore the whole male/female thing(or even maybe have it setup where they are desensitized and trained not to give a holy fuck about gender) and focus instead on "who"(I am so and so from someplace and became this because of my own will and interests) they are instead of "what"(I am a girl/boy/homosexual/insert generic gender type into slot A,who likes or hates guys/people/dogs/ insert social issues into slot B,who admired my father/Mother/ insert parental issues into slot C and became a solider/marine/warrior/ insert generic alpha male title into slot D) they are.


Get it or did I talk myself into a corner again? 0-o

Those "generic" things you just described makes the whole "who am i" package.

Whatever though,feminine men and mucho women are the "trend" of our days.Who am i to be an obstacle to that.
inb4 "that's not what i meant.that's not what i post" etc etc etc

Yes but the trouble is they focus on the generic stuff to the point they kill the character with generalizations, this is why I hate most "pop media" writing its not smart,witty or deep, its filler to fill the gaps in action and movement.

Look at space above and beyond or Galactica or even star trek(or GI joe to a degree), yes they differentiate male and female, yes they may use generic setups now and then but they do not lose the story or the writing to the mere difference of gender which most "pop media" writers do because doing anything else takes to much time and effort and tends to be lost on their audience anyway.......

Like, ummm...dude, do you know how many people don't really give a shit either? If you are that conscientious about what character model you are playing as, I suspect you have a little more to worry about than playing as a woman or a man.

No one cares until it starts making them money then sooner rather than later they wont care again because they made money off it.... kinda like modern gaming....it sucks...when will it stop sucking? oh and your point was I could not hear it for the sucking sound

Uh-huh...if you really think that being able to play as a woman will sell more copies, go right ahead and believe that. Unicorns exist by the way, and just over that rainbow, you might just find a pot of gold.

 

[grimdeath999]

when i finaaly finishing my studying and become a designer ill remember to keep this in mind

 

[squid5580]

I really don't see the avatar as the primary concern. There's a big female audience for TF2, and that has an all-male cast. There are plenty of action-shooters in which the protagonist is a female, though the target audience is male. What usually seems to matter is how much the game appeals to females overall. I must admit I'm a little surprised that the styling of the avatar is as important an issue.

I thought the Pyro could go either way or has it been confirmed it is male?

As for the OT I just don't get it. I could understand if women were being portrayed in some derogatory fashion. As for your avatar in an FPS (of all genres) I just don't see why it would matter. So you could look down and see boobs or something (not a bad idea lol)? But all you see in an FPS is your gun and enemies. If they were to make the enemies an all female cast then the uber feminists would cry foul because it would promote violence against women. Maybe I am odd but when I get to create my own avatar I never make someone who even faintly resembles me. When I play a game I become immersed in thier story, thier lives. Putting me in thier it becomes my story and I can no longer become immersed in it. Maybe because I know it will build me up for a little while but when I press the power button I will come crashing down.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Real women are still not depicted properly in games. Despite a severe lack of muscles on most of them, women are able to do these amazing feats that require much more body strength than their character models would imply. Who do I blame for this? People like Angelina Jolee. She wanted to be a model for women, but I think she's hurting them. She looks like she can barely open a door let alone pull of martial arts with the destructive force that her characters can or pull off those impressive acrobatics. The supermodel woman is creating impossible standards. can women be strong and still look beautiful? Yes. Can a woman look like a tiny-bodied stick and still be able to take care of herself the way that games imply she can? Some yes and some no of course, but the point is that games and the other parts of the media provide only one example of what a woman can be (and therefore what she should be). According to video games, a woman must have breasts that are at least a C cup, a gorgeous face, fit (but not too fit, guys don't like muscles most of the time), feminine, and revealing. She can't be too deep, either, she can only inspire the protagonist to be deeper himself. A woman is a lot like a vase: she is meant to be beautiful and enhance the environment, but doesn't actually affect that environment.

I think that you're far to hung up on realism here, and I can't even think of any games right now of super strong women that aren't magic based beside a few JRPG girls. ANd saying that women in games are all the same seems short sighted. I don't think you would consider Laura Croft and Princess Peach the same.

.....*dies laughing* are so ignorant of how media in general glorifies female beauty that it effects almost EVERYTHING they do....this includes games,comics,music,film,ect,ect,ect ad nauseum
side rant

hell comics are so hell bent on the male demographic they are drying up and lose market share to manga which focus on more demographics than males,geeks and pedos.... even if anime is focusing more on pedos and general demographics...

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Spoiler: snip

Bleh. This complaint annoys me. What is the big deal of playing as some guy in the Army? Or some Spartan in Halo that happens to be a guy? You play the game to enjoy the game, thats why you bought it in the first place, no? There must be something in there that you're having fun with. Just because you can't play as a girl, doesn't make the game any worse.

Look, its not worth it for game developers to put even more time and effort into making a female character model and then adding a slew of customization features just so you feel more at home playing as a girl online.

Why must we always find something to complain about? The gameplay wasn't enough to tide you over? You have to have female character models as well?

Umm dude...do you know how many boys would be scrambling to play as the female models? A good majority of them would rather look at something pretty and female being filled with holes than something manly...being....oh gawd...><

I think it's messed up that people think that females have no place in MW2. Lets face it reprisents modern warfare just like WW2 games reprisent WW2, females have a place in modern wars and it's fucked up that people still think that women can't fight in wars today.

They don't fight in wars. They may incidentally end up fighting in places like Iraq/Afghanistan, but it's not like they're running around sabotaging military bases with SAS or Delta. Having female soldiers in MW2 multiplayer wouldn't fit the setting. As Run DMC once sang, it's like that and that's the way it is.

Yes and no, its one more of where perspective,assumption and fiction collide , war for the most part is fought on the ground by males, while not strictly true it is perceived that way and msot fiction is wrote along that perspective.

You make it sound like it's just a myth.

Its difficult enough for modern game writers to write in gender roles without cocking things up if you will...but not assigning people roles and to ignore their gender and societal assumptions is an impossibility.... sure I would like to see it done.... but I don't think they could handle it... their lil generic brains would fry....

Excuse me but i have a lil generic brain and i don't get this.Why should we ignore,for instance,genders?Are they bad,are they wrong,are they an illusion?
While we're at it,nowdays i find it hard why it's so bad calling a man "man" and a woman "woman".

A myth...not so much but well just because its a hang up with how the army functions today should make that reality an absolute in fictional media....

You're better than me a fool who thinks he can barely write
Anyway its not so much about ignoring gender as all the predictable traps "pop media" writers place them in, you can have a modern war game set with an equal amount of genders in it and ignore the whole male/female thing(or even maybe have it setup where they are desensitized and trained not to give a holy fuck about gender) and focus instead on "who"(I am so and so from someplace and became this because of my own will and interests) they are instead of "what"(I am a girl/boy/homosexual/insert generic gender type into slot A,who likes or hates guys/people/dogs/ insert social issues into slot B,who admired my father/Mother/ insert parental issues into slot C and became a solider/marine/warrior/ insert generic alpha male title into slot D) they are.


Get it or did I talk myself into a corner again? 0-o

Those "generic" things you just described makes the whole "who am i" package.

Whatever though,feminine men and mucho women are the "trend" of our days.Who am i to be an obstacle to that.
inb4 "that's not what i meant.that's not what i post" etc etc etc

Yes but the trouble is they focus on the generic stuff to the point they kill the character with generalizations, this is why I hate most "pop media" writing its not smart,witty or deep, its filler to fill the gaps in action and movement.

Look at space above and beyond or Galactica or even star trek(or GI joe to a degree), yes they differentiate male and female, yes they may use generic setups now and then but they do not lose the story or the writing to the mere difference of gender which most "pop media" writers do because doing anything else takes to much time and effort and tends to be lost on their audience anyway.......

Like, ummm...dude, do you know how many people don't really give a shit either? If you are that conscientious about what character model you are playing as, I suspect you have a little more to worry about than playing as a woman or a man.

No one cares until it starts making them money then sooner rather than later they wont care again because they made money off it.... kinda like modern gaming....it sucks...when will it stop sucking? oh and your point was I could not hear it for the sucking sound

Uh-huh...if you really think that being able to play as a woman will sell more copies, go right ahead and believe that. Unicorns exist by the way, and just over that rainbow, you might just find a pot of gold.

That or a girlfriend, either way it would make good DLC fodder that would have no repercussion on them, after all getting a few models done is nothing compared to level and core game play design and balancing...

 

[rampantcreature]

There's a big female audience for TF2, and that has an all-male cast.

You don't know that! Pyro could be Joan Jett in disguise...

[sub]Or maybe that was just a dream I had[/sub]

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

when i finaaly finishing my studying and become a designer ill remember to keep this in mind

plz..plz...plz...do not forget not everyone plays the same, full button mapping is a must for any game!!!!

 

[Yanarix]

A hearty meh from this corner, I dont bat an eyelid having to play a girl if I want to be a sorc in diablo2. its an environment and my avatar is a tool, I dont think of it as myself, I dont think of it as a person. maybe the developers slapped a (highly pixelated, vaguely) sexual image over the tool, but it could just as well be a blue rectangle.

no reason why not to throw around some female either, but expect the hair to be in a bun and the cleavage non existent- pretty much looking like a dude anyway, except maybe facial structure?


oh wait no, I see what they did there... theyre trying to avoid being labeled as making a game that conditions people to kill women. how the hell is it that paintball doesnt have to deal with this crap? conspiracy!!!11

 

[Mr.Pandah]

Spoiler: snip

Bleh. This complaint annoys me. What is the big deal of playing as some guy in the Army? Or some Spartan in Halo that happens to be a guy? You play the game to enjoy the game, thats why you bought it in the first place, no? There must be something in there that you're having fun with. Just because you can't play as a girl, doesn't make the game any worse.

Look, its not worth it for game developers to put even more time and effort into making a female character model and then adding a slew of customization features just so you feel more at home playing as a girl online.

Why must we always find something to complain about? The gameplay wasn't enough to tide you over? You have to have female character models as well?

Umm dude...do you know how many boys would be scrambling to play as the female models? A good majority of them would rather look at something pretty and female being filled with holes than something manly...being....oh gawd...><

I think it's messed up that people think that females have no place in MW2. Lets face it reprisents modern warfare just like WW2 games reprisent WW2, females have a place in modern wars and it's fucked up that people still think that women can't fight in wars today.

They don't fight in wars. They may incidentally end up fighting in places like Iraq/Afghanistan, but it's not like they're running around sabotaging military bases with SAS or Delta. Having female soldiers in MW2 multiplayer wouldn't fit the setting. As Run DMC once sang, it's like that and that's the way it is.

Yes and no, its one more of where perspective,assumption and fiction collide , war for the most part is fought on the ground by males, while not strictly true it is perceived that way and msot fiction is wrote along that perspective.

You make it sound like it's just a myth.

Its difficult enough for modern game writers to write in gender roles without cocking things up if you will...but not assigning people roles and to ignore their gender and societal assumptions is an impossibility.... sure I would like to see it done.... but I don't think they could handle it... their lil generic brains would fry....

Excuse me but i have a lil generic brain and i don't get this.Why should we ignore,for instance,genders?Are they bad,are they wrong,are they an illusion?
While we're at it,nowdays i find it hard why it's so bad calling a man "man" and a woman "woman".

A myth...not so much but well just because its a hang up with how the army functions today should make that reality an absolute in fictional media....

You're better than me a fool who thinks he can barely write
Anyway its not so much about ignoring gender as all the predictable traps "pop media" writers place them in, you can have a modern war game set with an equal amount of genders in it and ignore the whole male/female thing(or even maybe have it setup where they are desensitized and trained not to give a holy fuck about gender) and focus instead on "who"(I am so and so from someplace and became this because of my own will and interests) they are instead of "what"(I am a girl/boy/homosexual/insert generic gender type into slot A,who likes or hates guys/people/dogs/ insert social issues into slot B,who admired my father/Mother/ insert parental issues into slot C and became a solider/marine/warrior/ insert generic alpha male title into slot D) they are.


Get it or did I talk myself into a corner again? 0-o

Those "generic" things you just described makes the whole "who am i" package.

Whatever though,feminine men and mucho women are the "trend" of our days.Who am i to be an obstacle to that.
inb4 "that's not what i meant.that's not what i post" etc etc etc

Yes but the trouble is they focus on the generic stuff to the point they kill the character with generalizations, this is why I hate most "pop media" writing its not smart,witty or deep, its filler to fill the gaps in action and movement.

Look at space above and beyond or Galactica or even star trek(or GI joe to a degree), yes they differentiate male and female, yes they may use generic setups now and then but they do not lose the story or the writing to the mere difference of gender which most "pop media" writers do because doing anything else takes to much time and effort and tends to be lost on their audience anyway.......

Like, ummm...dude, do you know how many people don't really give a shit either? If you are that conscientious about what character model you are playing as, I suspect you have a little more to worry about than playing as a woman or a man.

No one cares until it starts making them money then sooner rather than later they wont care again because they made money off it.... kinda like modern gaming....it sucks...when will it stop sucking? oh and your point was I could not hear it for the sucking sound

Uh-huh...if you really think that being able to play as a woman will sell more copies, go right ahead and believe that. Unicorns exist by the way, and just over that rainbow, you might just find a pot of gold.

That or a girlfriend, either way it would make good DLC fodder that would have no repercussion on them, after all getting a few models done is nothing compared to level and core game play design and balancing...

Not sure where you were going with that "or a girlfriend" comment, but I'll ignore it for your sake.

Sure they could release DLC of new skins and what not, but to make it realistic...women run differently than men, they move differently than men, IW would have to dump some more cash into rendering all of these motions with a woman moving around instead of a guy.

Also, women are typically not as big as men, therefore there would be a slight advantage to being a woman, throwing some balance out the window. And after all of this, you'd have to be able to select characters at this point...something that isn't necessary in the game.

Developers can add all sorts of DLC, but just about all of it isn't practical.

 

[stiborge]

The thing that actually got me think about all this was one of the accolades - ALPHA MALE: Killed most of lower rank, I in jest said to my husband "that's a bit sexist". As I thought more about it I wondered why there was no option to have a female charater in multiplayer, obviously the story is based on specific people so I don't expect it in campaign (come to think of it the only females I remember in the single player were the victims from the airport. Odd, women join the military now right?)
Funny, I just remembered something from COD4 too, the only female I remember managed to crash her heli only to have you risk your life to save her...

Like the PurpleLemur said the game is just playing to it's target audience which is mostly men. Most commonly inverted men who like to keep to themselves and don't talk to many women. So it would make sense that they would make a game that played to the fantasy of rescuing a damsel in distress and having her go "my hero" and be eternity grateful. I mean as you said there are plenty of games that do provide female leads (I mean like Portal not like X-Blades that game was a bit patronizing) and if it bothers you so much then you can play those but if you want a wider spectrum you have to realize that the aforementioned men dominate the game market still.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Spoiler: snip

Bleh. This complaint annoys me. What is the big deal of playing as some guy in the Army? Or some Spartan in Halo that happens to be a guy? You play the game to enjoy the game, thats why you bought it in the first place, no? There must be something in there that you're having fun with. Just because you can't play as a girl, doesn't make the game any worse.

Look, its not worth it for game developers to put even more time and effort into making a female character model and then adding a slew of customization features just so you feel more at home playing as a girl online.

Why must we always find something to complain about? The gameplay wasn't enough to tide you over? You have to have female character models as well?

Umm dude...do you know how many boys would be scrambling to play as the female models? A good majority of them would rather look at something pretty and female being filled with holes than something manly...being....oh gawd...><

I think it's messed up that people think that females have no place in MW2. Lets face it reprisents modern warfare just like WW2 games reprisent WW2, females have a place in modern wars and it's fucked up that people still think that women can't fight in wars today.

They don't fight in wars. They may incidentally end up fighting in places like Iraq/Afghanistan, but it's not like they're running around sabotaging military bases with SAS or Delta. Having female soldiers in MW2 multiplayer wouldn't fit the setting. As Run DMC once sang, it's like that and that's the way it is.

Yes and no, its one more of where perspective,assumption and fiction collide , war for the most part is fought on the ground by males, while not strictly true it is perceived that way and msot fiction is wrote along that perspective.

You make it sound like it's just a myth.

Its difficult enough for modern game writers to write in gender roles without cocking things up if you will...but not assigning people roles and to ignore their gender and societal assumptions is an impossibility.... sure I would like to see it done.... but I don't think they could handle it... their lil generic brains would fry....

Excuse me but i have a lil generic brain and i don't get this.Why should we ignore,for instance,genders?Are they bad,are they wrong,are they an illusion?
While we're at it,nowdays i find it hard why it's so bad calling a man "man" and a woman "woman".

A myth...not so much but well just because its a hang up with how the army functions today should make that reality an absolute in fictional media....

You're better than me a fool who thinks he can barely write
Anyway its not so much about ignoring gender as all the predictable traps "pop media" writers place them in, you can have a modern war game set with an equal amount of genders in it and ignore the whole male/female thing(or even maybe have it setup where they are desensitized and trained not to give a holy fuck about gender) and focus instead on "who"(I am so and so from someplace and became this because of my own will and interests) they are instead of "what"(I am a girl/boy/homosexual/insert generic gender type into slot A,who likes or hates guys/people/dogs/ insert social issues into slot B,who admired my father/Mother/ insert parental issues into slot C and became a solider/marine/warrior/ insert generic alpha male title into slot D) they are.


Get it or did I talk myself into a corner again? 0-o

Those "generic" things you just described makes the whole "who am i" package.

Whatever though,feminine men and mucho women are the "trend" of our days.Who am i to be an obstacle to that.
inb4 "that's not what i meant.that's not what i post" etc etc etc

Yes but the trouble is they focus on the generic stuff to the point they kill the character with generalizations, this is why I hate most "pop media" writing its not smart,witty or deep, its filler to fill the gaps in action and movement.

Look at space above and beyond or Galactica or even star trek(or GI joe to a degree), yes they differentiate male and female, yes they may use generic setups now and then but they do not lose the story or the writing to the mere difference of gender which most "pop media" writers do because doing anything else takes to much time and effort and tends to be lost on their audience anyway.......

Like, ummm...dude, do you know how many people don't really give a shit either? If you are that conscientious about what character model you are playing as, I suspect you have a little more to worry about than playing as a woman or a man.

No one cares until it starts making them money then sooner rather than later they wont care again because they made money off it.... kinda like modern gaming....it sucks...when will it stop sucking? oh and your point was I could not hear it for the sucking sound

Uh-huh...if you really think that being able to play as a woman will sell more copies, go right ahead and believe that. Unicorns exist by the way, and just over that rainbow, you might just find a pot of gold.

That or a girlfriend, either way it would make good DLC fodder that would have no repercussion on them, after all getting a few models done is nothing compared to level and core game play design and balancing...

Not sure where you were going with that "or a girlfriend" comment, but I'll ignore it for your sake.

Sure they could release DLC of new skins and what not, but to make it realistic...women run differently than men, they move differently than men, IW would have to dump some more cash into rendering all of these motions with a woman moving around instead of a guy.

Also, women are typically not as big as men, therefore there would be a slight advantage to being a woman, throwing some balance out the window. And after all of this, you'd have to be able to select characters at this point...something that isn't necessary in the game.

Developers can add all sorts of DLC, but just about all of it isn't practical.

What I have to laugh at myself I still dun have a GF...and I wonder why(not really)

You are more or less right but for the not as big as men thing, the model can look smaller but have the same hitscan, that or just give them bigger boots make them as tall but take some off the sides, its not a huge change to things equipment can fill in alot of space.

But I am thinking beyond just female models to adding 6 types of basic model sets(any game should automatically have 2 or 3 right off the bat) being able to adjust colors, accessorize,ect. The trouble is when they do MP stuff they do it in context of the games fiction which for certain maps or game types can be fine but for everything else online people would like to personalize there virtual movement target'o'meat bags. Having a generic set of none to 3 or 4 just dose not cut it these days IMO. If a game like TF2 dose not want to do more that's fine...but there is really no excuse as to why they can't.

 

[Mr.Pandah]

Spoiler: snip

Bleh. This complaint annoys me. What is the big deal of playing as some guy in the Army? Or some Spartan in Halo that happens to be a guy? You play the game to enjoy the game, thats why you bought it in the first place, no? There must be something in there that you're having fun with. Just because you can't play as a girl, doesn't make the game any worse.

Look, its not worth it for game developers to put even more time and effort into making a female character model and then adding a slew of customization features just so you feel more at home playing as a girl online.

Why must we always find something to complain about? The gameplay wasn't enough to tide you over? You have to have female character models as well?

Umm dude...do you know how many boys would be scrambling to play as the female models? A good majority of them would rather look at something pretty and female being filled with holes than something manly...being....oh gawd...><

I think it's messed up that people think that females have no place in MW2. Lets face it reprisents modern warfare just like WW2 games reprisent WW2, females have a place in modern wars and it's fucked up that people still think that women can't fight in wars today.

They don't fight in wars. They may incidentally end up fighting in places like Iraq/Afghanistan, but it's not like they're running around sabotaging military bases with SAS or Delta. Having female soldiers in MW2 multiplayer wouldn't fit the setting. As Run DMC once sang, it's like that and that's the way it is.

Yes and no, its one more of where perspective,assumption and fiction collide , war for the most part is fought on the ground by males, while not strictly true it is perceived that way and msot fiction is wrote along that perspective.

You make it sound like it's just a myth.

Its difficult enough for modern game writers to write in gender roles without cocking things up if you will...but not assigning people roles and to ignore their gender and societal assumptions is an impossibility.... sure I would like to see it done.... but I don't think they could handle it... their lil generic brains would fry....

Excuse me but i have a lil generic brain and i don't get this.Why should we ignore,for instance,genders?Are they bad,are they wrong,are they an illusion?
While we're at it,nowdays i find it hard why it's so bad calling a man "man" and a woman "woman".

A myth...not so much but well just because its a hang up with how the army functions today should make that reality an absolute in fictional media....

You're better than me a fool who thinks he can barely write
Anyway its not so much about ignoring gender as all the predictable traps "pop media" writers place them in, you can have a modern war game set with an equal amount of genders in it and ignore the whole male/female thing(or even maybe have it setup where they are desensitized and trained not to give a holy fuck about gender) and focus instead on "who"(I am so and so from someplace and became this because of my own will and interests) they are instead of "what"(I am a girl/boy/homosexual/insert generic gender type into slot A,who likes or hates guys/people/dogs/ insert social issues into slot B,who admired my father/Mother/ insert parental issues into slot C and became a solider/marine/warrior/ insert generic alpha male title into slot D) they are.


Get it or did I talk myself into a corner again? 0-o

Those "generic" things you just described makes the whole "who am i" package.

Whatever though,feminine men and mucho women are the "trend" of our days.Who am i to be an obstacle to that.
inb4 "that's not what i meant.that's not what i post" etc etc etc

Yes but the trouble is they focus on the generic stuff to the point they kill the character with generalizations, this is why I hate most "pop media" writing its not smart,witty or deep, its filler to fill the gaps in action and movement.

Look at space above and beyond or Galactica or even star trek(or GI joe to a degree), yes they differentiate male and female, yes they may use generic setups now and then but they do not lose the story or the writing to the mere difference of gender which most "pop media" writers do because doing anything else takes to much time and effort and tends to be lost on their audience anyway.......

Like, ummm...dude, do you know how many people don't really give a shit either? If you are that conscientious about what character model you are playing as, I suspect you have a little more to worry about than playing as a woman or a man.

No one cares until it starts making them money then sooner rather than later they wont care again because they made money off it.... kinda like modern gaming....it sucks...when will it stop sucking? oh and your point was I could not hear it for the sucking sound

Uh-huh...if you really think that being able to play as a woman will sell more copies, go right ahead and believe that. Unicorns exist by the way, and just over that rainbow, you might just find a pot of gold.

That or a girlfriend, either way it would make good DLC fodder that would have no repercussion on them, after all getting a few models done is nothing compared to level and core game play design and balancing...

Not sure where you were going with that "or a girlfriend" comment, but I'll ignore it for your sake.

Sure they could release DLC of new skins and what not, but to make it realistic...women run differently than men, they move differently than men, IW would have to dump some more cash into rendering all of these motions with a woman moving around instead of a guy.

Also, women are typically not as big as men, therefore there would be a slight advantage to being a woman, throwing some balance out the window. And after all of this, you'd have to be able to select characters at this point...something that isn't necessary in the game.

Developers can add all sorts of DLC, but just about all of it isn't practical.

What I have to laugh at myself I still dun have a GF...and I wonder why(not really)

You are more or less right but for the not as big as men thing, the model can look smaller but have the same hitscan, that or just give them bigger boots make them as tall but take some off the sides, its not a huge change to things equipment can fill in alot of space.

But I am thinking beyond just female models to adding 6 types of basic model sets(any game should automatically have 2 or 3 right off the bat) being able to adjust colors, accessorize,ect. The trouble is when they do MP stuff they do it in context of the games fiction which for certain maps or game types can be fine but for everything else online people would like to personalize there virtual movement target'o'meat bags. Having a generic set of none to 3 or 4 just dose not cut it these days IMO. If a game like TF2 dose not want to do more that's fine...but there is really no excuse as to why they can't.

I still don't see a point in it. If the choice is there, thats fine. But if it isn't there, whats the big deal? Its not like the developers were sexist or anything, they just couldn't be bothered to put that stuff in there.

I just find absolutely no advantages to even bothering putting in a female character model(s)

 

[aesshen]

Gah. I feel your pain. I don't mind playing games as a male character if I find him interesting or attractive, but I just can't play any of the five trillion games with musclebound, grunting he-men on their covers. It's boring.

In RPGs you're going to get a few more women characters to choose from, more women play them after all. This will be the trend.

The thoughts on the portrayal of females in games are summed up thusly: without meaning to be sexist, the gaming world is generally a man's world. Women are the minority. Thus men will be catered to more. Sad fact. So there's going to be a lot of playing to the bloke's ego: damsel in distress minor characters or an option to be a female, interchangable with a male but it's really just a gimmick.

I'm picking on this quote because it shows a lot of pretty typical thinking, but really: do RPGs have more female characters because women play them or do women play RPGs because you can play as a female character? I know when I started buying my own video games (when I was around 10), I wasn't interested in ones where I couldn't play as my own gender.

I don't think there's any reason why gaming has to be a "man's world." I don't see any reason why even serious games should keep marketing themselves solely to a male audience - selling to men and women will always result in more sales than selling to just men. And besides, most women aren't asking for much. Female character models. Female voicesets. Even just female supporting characters who aren't ludicrous parodies of a game designer's wet dreams.

Also, be thankful you're not (I assume) a BLACK female gamer like me. I think the grand total of black female video game characters is 1 1/2 (Rochelle in L4D2 is one...Sheva from RE5 only counts as half in my vote since she's more of an afterthought thrown in to say "Hey, RE5 isn't racist! Here's a "black" chick!" IMO).

One of the things that really got me about Sheva was that she didn't even look black. She has straight hair, moderately dark skin, and basically Caucasian facial features. I mean, I guess you can't expect too much from a Japanese game company. Japan is pretty good at the "racism by way of ignorance" thing. I just find it depressing.

See in this situation, such as playing as a woman in MW2 is that people care if girls die. Now, don't get me wrong, we also care about men dying. But the world is sexist. No matter what anyone says, and the world needs sexism. Science is going to be called sexist. Now, remember about 5 or so years ago a female US soldier got caught behind enemy lines? Then there was a hudge press coverage about how they rescued her? Well she had 5 guys whom where all beaten much much worse than her, I think most of the guys whom where captured died. Anyway, the world was more concernd with the well being of this one woman then the other 20 men in her squad, most of which died. So if we put too many girls in games, feminists are going to complain somehow. I don't know where I am going but I am sure I left at least one point. Note I have 0 to no resources on the numbers and I can't be botherd looking it up, but you get the idea.

By "the world" you mean "the media?" Yeah, because that's a reliable gauge of what is true and right. Certainly, no self-respecting feminist is going to want a female soldier to be treated any differently from her male squadmates. And I guarantee that no one's going to complain if there are more and better female characters in video games. The main problem is that there isn't enough of a movement. It's the same way that gamers get disparaged in the media all the time - Modern Warfare 2 and its many preceding "controversies." There's never enough of a backlash against the people who start these things for something to change. Similarly, the intersection between feminists and gamers is pretty small. No one's fighting to make games more accessible to women except for female gamers - who are, of course, few exactly because there aren't that many games which are hospitable to them.

It's a stupid paradox. Judging by the reactions of most of the males in this thread, it'll probably continue for a while.