Girls and the games aimed at men

[ZippyDSMlee]

It is all about effort = profit. Until enough women start playing these games there won't be enough profit to justify the effort needed to get what you want done.

the gaming world is generally a man's world. Women are the minority. Thus men will be catered to more. Sad fact. So there's going to be a lot of playing to the bloke's ego: damsel in distress minor characters or... damn, I can't think of another exception than Perfect Dark right now.

Well, you get my point. Now I'm off to read Terry Pratchett alone and sob gently into my pillow, like every other night.

Basically this.

I know 'that' always pops up in these threads and seems like the answer, but let's think about it: catering to different demographics isn't a zero-sum game. There's no reason that catering to women means you have to *reduce* how much you cater to men.

In other words, it's not just a question of economic, I think it's a question of lazy marketing. Sure, economics would explain why men are catered to as much as possible. But on top of that baseline, aren't there any other opportunities to cater to women?

I mean, men aren't somehow less likely to put Tom Brady on their fantasy football teams just because he has more appeal to women than Peyton Manning--if gaming was truly a perfectly efficient market, we'd see more 'Tom Brady' games and less 'Peyton Manning' games.

Why are you patronising females by suggesting they are the only ones who would play as females and that they need to play as females to connect with the characters.

I don't think the OP is, anymore than the people who see it as an issue of male players being the majority are patronizing males by suggesting that none of them would play as females and they can't connect with a female character.

+++++

As for putting women in an FPS, wouldn't women with their smaller profile make great snipers:

Lyudmila Mikhailivna Pavlichenko...was assigned to the Red Army's 25th Infantry Division. There she became one of 2,000 female snipers in the Red Army, of whom about 500 ultimately survived the war. As a sniper, she made her first two kills near Belyayevka, using a Mosin-Nagant bolt action rifle with a P.E. 4-power scope.

Pvt. Pavlichenko fought for about two and a half months near Odessa, where she recorded 187 kills. When the Germans gained control of Odessa, her unit was pulled to be sent to Sevastopol on the Crimean Peninsula, where she fought for more than 8 months.[2] In May 1942, Lieutenant Pavlichenko was cited by the Southern Army Council for killing 257 German soldiers. Her total confirmed kills during World War II was 309, including 36 enemy snipers.

Claim: Sexpert Dr. Ruth Westheimer served as a sniper in Israel.

Status: True.

Origins: Diminutive Dr. Ruth Westheimer (4'7") is the nation's most well-known sex
doctor. Though you wouldn't suspect it from the grandmotherly appearance of "Dr. Ruth," this psychosexual therapist has been dispensing frank sex advice since 1980. (Across that span of time, she says the language in which queries are phrased has become more explicit, but the questions themselves have remained the same.)

The odd juxtaposition of her appearance and professional calling is not the only surprise to Dr. Ruth: there is also the small matter of her having trained in her youth as a sniper with the Israeli Defense Force.​

If anything I think its more modern designers can not think outside the box, I will blame 70% of modern man/humans issues on that before something more deliberate like bigotry. Modern designers build a game with X in mind and it dose Y as they have intended and it dose little else outside that narrow target zone if anything at all beyond its narrowly envision build. This is why button layouts tend to be stagnate cookie cutter sets and not sets+ full button layouts they can not precseve things they can not foresee or things that are far off in the distance... ...

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Spoiler: snip

Bleh. This complaint annoys me. What is the big deal of playing as some guy in the Army? Or some Spartan in Halo that happens to be a guy? You play the game to enjoy the game, thats why you bought it in the first place, no? There must be something in there that you're having fun with. Just because you can't play as a girl, doesn't make the game any worse.

Look, its not worth it for game developers to put even more time and effort into making a female character model and then adding a slew of customization features just so you feel more at home playing as a girl online.

Why must we always find something to complain about? The gameplay wasn't enough to tide you over? You have to have female character models as well?

Umm dude...do you know how many boys would be scrambling to play as the female models? A good majority of them would rather look at something pretty and female being filled with holes than something manly...being....oh gawd...><

I think it's messed up that people think that females have no place in MW2. Lets face it reprisents modern warfare just like WW2 games reprisent WW2, females have a place in modern wars and it's fucked up that people still think that women can't fight in wars today.

They don't fight in wars. They may incidentally end up fighting in places like Iraq/Afghanistan, but it's not like they're running around sabotaging military bases with SAS or Delta. Having female soldiers in MW2 multiplayer wouldn't fit the setting. As Run DMC once sang, it's like that and that's the way it is.

Yes and no, its one more of where perspective,assumption and fiction collide , war for the most part is fought on the ground by males, while not strictly true it is perceived that way and msot fiction is wrote along that perspective.

You make it sound like it's just a myth.

Its difficult enough for modern game writers to write in gender roles without cocking things up if you will...but not assigning people roles and to ignore their gender and societal assumptions is an impossibility.... sure I would like to see it done.... but I don't think they could handle it... their lil generic brains would fry....

Excuse me but i have a lil generic brain and i don't get this.Why should we ignore,for instance,genders?Are they bad,are they wrong,are they an illusion?
While we're at it,nowdays i find it hard why it's so bad calling a man "man" and a woman "woman".

A myth...not so much but well just because its a hang up with how the army functions today should make that reality an absolute in fictional media....

You're better than me a fool who thinks he can barely write
Anyway its not so much about ignoring gender as all the predictable traps "pop media" writers place them in, you can have a modern war game set with an equal amount of genders in it and ignore the whole male/female thing(or even maybe have it setup where they are desensitized and trained not to give a holy fuck about gender) and focus instead on "who"(I am so and so from someplace and became this because of my own will and interests) they are instead of "what"(I am a girl/boy/homosexual/insert generic gender type into slot A,who likes or hates guys/people/dogs/ insert social issues into slot B,who admired my father/Mother/ insert parental issues into slot C and became a solider/marine/warrior/ insert generic alpha male title into slot D) they are.


Get it or did I talk myself into a corner again? 0-o

Those "generic" things you just described makes the whole "who am i" package.

Whatever though,feminine men and mucho women are the "trend" of our days.Who am i to be an obstacle to that.
inb4 "that's not what i meant.that's not what i post" etc etc etc

Yes but the trouble is they focus on the generic stuff to the point they kill the character with generalizations, this is why I hate most "pop media" writing its not smart,witty or deep, its filler to fill the gaps in action and movement.

Look at space above and beyond or Galactica or even star trek(or GI joe to a degree), yes they differentiate male and female, yes they may use generic setups now and then but they do not lose the story or the writing to the mere difference of gender which most "pop media" writers do because doing anything else takes to much time and effort and tends to be lost on their audience anyway.......

Like, ummm...dude, do you know how many people don't really give a shit either? If you are that conscientious about what character model you are playing as, I suspect you have a little more to worry about than playing as a woman or a man.

No one cares until it starts making them money then sooner rather than later they wont care again because they made money off it.... kinda like modern gaming....it sucks...when will it stop sucking? oh and your point was I could not hear it for the sucking sound

Uh-huh...if you really think that being able to play as a woman will sell more copies, go right ahead and believe that. Unicorns exist by the way, and just over that rainbow, you might just find a pot of gold.

That or a girlfriend, either way it would make good DLC fodder that would have no repercussion on them, after all getting a few models done is nothing compared to level and core game play design and balancing...

Not sure where you were going with that "or a girlfriend" comment, but I'll ignore it for your sake.

Sure they could release DLC of new skins and what not, but to make it realistic...women run differently than men, they move differently than men, IW would have to dump some more cash into rendering all of these motions with a woman moving around instead of a guy.

Also, women are typically not as big as men, therefore there would be a slight advantage to being a woman, throwing some balance out the window. And after all of this, you'd have to be able to select characters at this point...something that isn't necessary in the game.

Developers can add all sorts of DLC, but just about all of it isn't practical.

What I have to laugh at myself I still dun have a GF...and I wonder why(not really)

You are more or less right but for the not as big as men thing, the model can look smaller but have the same hitscan, that or just give them bigger boots make them as tall but take some off the sides, its not a huge change to things equipment can fill in alot of space.

But I am thinking beyond just female models to adding 6 types of basic model sets(any game should automatically have 2 or 3 right off the bat) being able to adjust colors, accessorize,ect. The trouble is when they do MP stuff they do it in context of the games fiction which for certain maps or game types can be fine but for everything else online people would like to personalize there virtual movement target'o'meat bags. Having a generic set of none to 3 or 4 just dose not cut it these days IMO. If a game like TF2 dose not want to do more that's fine...but there is really no excuse as to why they can't.

I still don't see a point in it. If the choice is there, thats fine. But if it isn't there, whats the big deal? Its not like the developers were sexist or anything, they just couldn't be bothered to put that stuff in there.

I just find absolutely no advantages to even bothering putting in a female character model(s)

I agree more or less, but I think there is an un taped advantage because how many hormonal male players would opt to play as a hot chick? I know it screws with the mind but I can easily see any MP FPS with almost all female models because that's just how sad things are if given a choice the "boys" will select hot female models over most anything else just cause its nice to look at.

 

[zombflux]

When I played Mirror's Edge I wasn't perpetually aware of the fact that my character had tits and a vagina, so I imagine it's about the same for girls.

Who cares?

 

[Deleted]

To be honest I don't think they should care about a minority. I get when you're saying and games should have more female options, but if they don't then who give a crap, the female gamers I know don't concern themselves with stuff like that. Mayb thats because they're more into RPGs ... hmm.

 

[Caligulove]

well for one thing- I dont think you would really expect there to be women in games like MW2 around you in the fighting on the ground because as it stands by law-
Women cannot serve in active military conflicts on the ground (ie, most of Call of Duty gameplay)
Though, you bring up the excellent point about the chopper pilot in CoD4... and how she was another damsel to save (as much as a chopper gunner can be a distressed damsel)

But considering that IW already takes GREAT liberties with their story and the idea of giant wars, nukes going off and a Civil War overthrowing Russia... I dont think that many would suddenly see "WOMEN FIGHTING IN THE MILITARY!?!? These writers suck- so unrealistic" considering even Shepherd said there would be no shortage of patriots... I mean, we all gotta do our part when 30,000 troops die suddenly... not women, though.


I do think that when it all comes down to it... orientating games towards the Male demographic, especially 18-25. It's profitable. I do expect, though, that as time goes on, that the medium and the attitude of games will change and we can see more drastic changes in roles in those future games.
Good topic of discussion, all things considered

 

[spartan773]

Well in reply to that.
Most game companies try to appeal to the largest consumer base, in most ways, it's mainly males, plus there really isn't a census for what gender plays video games, so i'm most likely talking out my ass and what i'm saying isn't true.

But maybe it is true, who knows?

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

It is all about effort = profit. Until enough women start playing these games there won't be enough profit to justify the effort needed to get what you want done.

the gaming world is generally a man's world. Women are the minority. Thus men will be catered to more. Sad fact. So there's going to be a lot of playing to the bloke's ego: damsel in distress minor characters or... damn, I can't think of another exception than Perfect Dark right now.

Well, you get my point. Now I'm off to read Terry Pratchett alone and sob gently into my pillow, like every other night.

Basically this.

I know 'that' always pops up in these threads and seems like the answer, but let's think about it: catering to different demographics isn't a zero-sum game. There's no reason that catering to women means you have to *reduce* how much you cater to men.

In other words, it's not just a question of economic, I think it's a question of lazy marketing.

If anything I think its more modern designers can not think outside the box, I will blame 70% of modern man/humans issues on that before something more deliberate like bigotry. Modern designers build a game with X in mind and it dose Y as they have intended and it dose little else outside that narrow target zone if anything at all beyond its narrowly envision build. This is why button layouts tend to be stagnate cookie cutter sets and not sets+ full button layouts they can not precseve things they can not foresee or things that are far off in the distance... ...

Exactly--while of course there's some sexism involved, there's also some impact that negatively affects girls just because of the failure to think that extra step. It's that lesser form of pseudo-sexism that flows from people thinking the whole world is just like them.

It's like color blind and left handed gamers: there's no bigotry towards those groups, really. And in a male-dominated field, you think the color blind would be catered to, as it's predominantly men who are differently-abled in that way. But no--in how many games are there faction colors that screw color-blind people up, or games that don't allow lefties to remap the controls?

And in a lot of cases, I think catering to women would take no more effort than catering to lefties and color blind men: they could do it, and most men wouldn't be put off one bit. It's not necessarily a zero-sum game to cater to smaller demographics of your market.

Well I tend to look at it like this when it comes to control options its very easy to change(a few lines of code, an extra menu screen) and make it so you are given full button mapping but how many people would use it, the majority certainly not use it and there is a fear it would make some players play the game "to well"(the excuse to to dis KB & M support even if they will work fine on a console) so its ignored and dejected.

Color blind is even less an issue than that, there are simply not enough active and vocal people in the community to force the industry to stand up and take notice as the deaf have done so in the TV industry.

When it comes to "female geared" stuff in games you have a mixed of problems one is what "defines female", another is ramification because in this entertainment media world someone is going to rail on them, another is numbers to support the movement to use the female geared stuff.

I do not think one can blatantly decry sexism or even pseudo-sexism, as one looks at the story and the game it becomes a black and white issue not so much if its sexist or not but this game dose this(tell a tale of a modern war, that just so happens to focus on males),its targeted at that demographic(war fans that tend to be male) and is made with this in mind(a male focused virtual war environment). IMO being exclusively male dose not make it sexist in any way unless within the story itself derogates females(LIVE chat dose not count....I want to torture and burn the planet when I hear that crap...).

So now what? Like anything else we as consumers and or activities(or in my case a wanna be) need to annoy the industry with "we want choice", its as simple as that, let them work on giving us choice and through the market place things will improve as it tends to do.

 

[wynnsora]

In all honesty, we could use more catering to women in video games. Not completely make games marketed for women only, but at least add things geared more towards women.

On to the second question... To be honest, I hate the portrayal of female characters most often. In Harvest Moon, they don't really do anything, you marry them, they have a child for you, the end. In fps games they're the sex figures. And if you want to get really specific, in Mass Effect I found while playing a female character that I have "ass cam". Where if I'm attempting to run in the Citadel the camera will automatically zoom in on my character's ass. Female characters are always, "Oh! I'm a girl, and I like you, but I don't want to get in the way even though I'm following you around and blushing constantly while having every inch of my body covered up." Or... "I'm a woman! I'm strong! I don't need anyone's help! Also, does this thong go up my butt too far?" There is no middle ground, and it means women in video games are sadly portrayed.

To put both together, I'd like more games with decent female protagonist options, or at least female options at all. Not likely to happen, but it'd be a step in the right direction.

 

[NewGeekPhilosopher]

If you aim at stereotypes you get games either made for mindless frat boys,geeks or generalized girly cooking thingy.

Instead of stereotypes and generations make the game based on whatever the game is based on then for online play maybe add a bit more customization option, from atypical warfare war to more anime'ish in style battle skirts more colors, accessories ect then of course be able to change gender and body types to suit what the player wants to be, basically outside the set fictional world of the single player champagne let the online stuff be alot more customizable if just only in looks...then of course they can ruin it via micro transactions....

This is what I mean. I don't like the fact that there have to be girl games and boy games. I'm sure there's some guy out there that plays Barbie horse adventures or whatever that just wishes that it could be a tiny bit less pink XD

I just wish there was a customisation for MW2 online that allows for a female soldier. I can't see why not.

I play Cooking Mama and Harvest Moon and I'm a guy... Personally I find depictions of males in games as sexist as the depictions of women, there's a reason why The Sims 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, it allowed you to create male characters who didn't have to kill anybody to succeed in the goals of the game.

I find first-person-shooters horrifying and they make me dizzy, my teammates leave me behind before I know what's going on. And yes, I did play Barbie Horse Adventures on my cousin's Game Boy Colour. And don't get me started about the problems she had with the idea that there were no Aboriginal girl characters in the Barbie games like her. In the same way I would like to see a game with a character who has the same autistic spectrum (diagnosed by a doctor) disorder that I have who goes around making a difference in a town filled with rainbows and anthropomorphic animals. Think Animal Crossing meets Rain Man. You reckon it would sell?

 

[similar.squirrel]

I think it was assumed, up until recently, that only men are dim enough to play these games. Apparently not.

 

[BonsaiK]

I guess it makes sense that a military style game may not have girls on the front line (as they tend not to be on the front line in war) but you almost always get SOME female content thrown in somewhere even if it's just a female voice on your intercom.

Most other games do offer the female option because it is a very popular option and not just with women. I'm a guy and I ALWAYS pick the female character to play if there is one, because I like women, I find them more interesting than men on many levels so naturally given the choice I will choose to play with the female avatar.

 

[Slayer_2]

There is no reason really. The MW2 devs were lazy, as they were with many aspects of the game. Although, you can imagine the hazing some players might receive because of their female character. It's bad enough in Halo where the characters are exactly the same, male or female. If you added boobs to a player, I bet every immature 12 year old would tea-bag like never before.

Also, some players might have some weird problem with shooting female characters. I certainly don't give a crap about your virtual gender and will shoot you either way, but I think some people might complain about that. Imagine the Fox News headline: "MW2 allows you to rape and kill innocent women!". They probably would too.

Anyhow, the most likely reason is developer laziness.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

If you aim at stereotypes you get games either made for mindless frat boys,geeks or generalized girly cooking thingy.

Instead of stereotypes and generations make the game based on whatever the game is based on then for online play maybe add a bit more customization option, from atypical warfare war to more anime'ish in style battle skirts more colors, accessories ect then of course be able to change gender and body types to suit what the player wants to be, basically outside the set fictional world of the single player champagne let the online stuff be alot more customizable if just only in looks...then of course they can ruin it via micro transactions....

This is what I mean. I don't like the fact that there have to be girl games and boy games. I'm sure there's some guy out there that plays Barbie horse adventures or whatever that just wishes that it could be a tiny bit less pink XD

I just wish there was a customisation for MW2 online that allows for a female soldier. I can't see why not.

I play Cooking Mama and Harvest Moon and I'm a guy... Personally I find depictions of males in games as sexist as the depictions of women, there's a reason why The Sims 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, it allowed you to create male characters who didn't have to kill anybody to succeed in the goals of the game.

I find first-person-shooters horrifying and they make me dizzy, my teammates leave me behind before I know what's going on. And yes, I did play Barbie Horse Adventures on my cousin's Game Boy Colour. And don't get me started about the problems she had with the idea that there were no Aboriginal girl characters in the Barbie games like her. In the same way I would like to see a game with a character who has the same autistic spectrum (diagnosed by a doctor) disorder that I have who goes around making a difference in a town filled with rainbows and anthropomorphic animals. Think Animal Crossing meets Rain Man. You reckon it would sell?

Well what I am more getting at is there is little customization/options and things are more geared to stereotypes, cooking mama is kinda neat....but overly cute and dose not have that worthwhile respcies in it >>, I am more meat and potato/ chocolate iceing and cake, haerty filling yet interesting meals and such..

 

[mstickle]

I think it was assumed, up until recently, that only men are dim enough to play these games. Apparently not.

You might call it dim, but I play games to relax. I don't see the point of playing anything that feels like a chore, so a nice simple game works for me. I like to shoot stuff.

 

[CrysisMcGee]

I have no problem playing women in games. I really don't have a preference, to be honest. Loved No one lives forever, 1 and 2.

Fallout 1 and 2 were interesting to play as a woman.

 

[Aesir23]

Do you enjoy shotguns? The question you're asking certainly has a wide cone of fire on it.

Shotguns+zombies= One very happy shewolf51

 

[Jekken6]

Meh, as long as the game is great, i don't care what gender the lead protagonists are, as long as they're not annoying or complete bitches. Rubi is a *****, Sheva is annoying and Alyx Vance is none of those things.

 

[RealLifev2.0.09]

For me the issue I find in a FPS is that they are highly competitive online, I think more so then any genre Ive ever played. The endless accusations of using cheap guns, unfair tactics, or even just outright accusations of hacking seem to abound. For me the introduction of female avatars usually affects game balance.

My example of this will be the Korean fps game of combat arms. In it there are female and male characters. The female characters are often considered to be the more advantageous of the two. This is because in the game the women, as is typical of women when comparing men and women who have undergone the same exercising regiments, have less muscle mass. Because they have less muscle mass they are smaller targets. Because they are smaller targets automatic weapon fire is less likely to hit them. For this reason many people use female characters regardless of their personal gender.

The only way to prevent this would be to make the body types identical. But then the only difference between the female and the male would be the face, which then any face accessory (as most online fps games I have seen have face accessories) would make even the existence of different genders moot.

A non gender based example as to different bodies in online fps's is halo 2 and 3. Though I never tried the "Elite" in halo 3 in halo 2 it seemed like a great way to get insta killed when your shield was lost. This is because the elite bodies head was hunched over their bodies for easily attained head shots.

In online games there just isn't much of a point to add multiple body types since ultimately one will be favored over the others for efficiency.

Edit: On a more humorous note, I remember back when me and my friends would play perfect dark, most of my friends would mix and match and use an alien body with a human head for the smallest possible target... cause they were jerks.