God of War Team "Pulling Back" From Violence Against Women

[Kahunaburger]

I can see kinda where they're coming from...men in that day and age would be far, far more likely to be combat trained than women, given that I don't think the armies of the ancient world would have allowed women soldiers.

Well, there were some steppe armies contemporary with ancient Greece that had warriors of both genders, which is likely what inspired the myth of the Amazons. But I think the mythological aspect of God of War is mostly a branding thing vs. an actual attempt to portray the ancient Greek worldview.

 

[Treblaine]

Yawn. Can someone wake me when the feminism fad dies down again?

Pro tip: this is not "feminism" this is plain old White-affluent Conservatism.

Look at Anita Sarkeesian's lavish apartment, for a GRADUATE, she's part of "The 1%" totally out of touch with reality, raised in isolation with a narrow and unchallenged ideology of how women should cover up and that female sexuality is inherently just "bad".

But conservatives are self aware, they know after all the Jimi Hendrix songs that being conservative is bad, you can't object to women being sexual as a conservative, but if you say the EXACT SAME THING but claim to be a feminist, suddenly you get instant facile street cred.

This is not a "no true scotsman" fallacy. It DEFIES the definition of feminism to so vehemently object to women's inclusion and sexual freedom and fits exactly with what Conservative values are.

Call a spade a spade.

So literally regardless of whether conservatives say women need more or less power, they are wrong.

Lets be clear: Conservatives preaching the conservative idology that women must cover up, must never be seen to act sexually, and are not permitted to have a role in popular if violent games even when all this is possible for males THAT GIVES WOMEN LESS POWER!

So your "literally" is just a wholley out of nowhere straw man argument, something I never said and what is not in any way the situation.

 

[Treblaine]

I already said non-human creatures don't count.

Yeah, you can't base any argument on such a contrived and self-serving assertion.

Really? Tell me Gorgons are they male or female or both? The sisters of time. Do they have reproductive organs? Are they even in need of having genders or did people just name them sisters because they resemble feminine characteristics of mankind?

How do you sex a giant pile of stones powered by a crystal? The voice? Gaia could just be asexual. How can you tell that the Minotaurs are only males? Could be that there are some females there, I never saw a big dangling cock anywhere so who knows? Maybe the huge muscle mass has the same effect on their udders as it has on human breasts.

You see? If we accept mythical creatures in the mix we don't know what the fuck they are. Half of the enemies you fight COULD be females of their respective species.

So yeah. Self-serving... a bit yes. Any argument is self-serving after all you use them to strengthen your own position. But please do call back to me once you an analysis of the manticore's gender.

Hmm, are the SISTERS OF TIME female? Really? Because you just reckon that they don't have reproductive organs?

My aunt had a hysterectomy, are you saying she isn't a woman for lack of critical reproductive organs?

The point is those individuals depicted in the game are clearly female or male.

You don't seem to care how this arbitrary definition is so self-serving your convoluted argument. The key part is CONTRIVED and ARBITRARY! You have just made stuff up to suit yourself, a baseless assertion that they cannot be female to spite having breasts and distinct feminine features because of an irrelevant and ignorant scientific definition of what is female.

You remind me of this South American court who sentenced a female criminal to serve her sentence in a mens prison, she was a woman, she lived as a woman, looked like a woman, had breasts, feminine features and voice and medical examination showed she had a vagina... but she had XY chromosomes and was incapable of having a child. She had testes instead of ovaries, but a genetic disorder meant not a single cell in her body would respond to Testosterone so she developed as a woman, as if there was no testosterone in her body. And because of a bone headed and ignorant definition she had to share a prison with serial rapists and suffered for it.

We DO know that gender mythical creatures are, you haven't made clear why we wouldn't know. Are you saying you cannot tell that Zeus is a man because he wasn't born like a human of a woman? Or that it is impossible to tell to spite the masculine brow and long thick beard? Nah, you're not convincing anyone with this contrived nonsense.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Lets be clear: Conservatives preaching the conservative idology that women must cover up, must never be seen to act sexually, and are not permitted to have a role in popular if violent games even when all this is possible for males THAT GIVES WOMEN LESS POWER!

Yeah, I can totally see how ppl asking for a wider range of female characters are conservative. The truly progressive stance on media is knee-jerk defense of the status quo.

 

[Treblaine]

I can see kinda where they're coming from...men in that day and age would be far, far more likely to be combat trained than women, given that I don't think the armies of the ancient world would have allowed women soldiers.

While it may seem like women have always been separated from combat duties, that wasn't always the case. In agricultural and settled societies women do tend to end up doing the menial tasks and men ended up forming a fighting elite, a professional army. This is the typical division of labour that you get when people specialise, few guys focus totally on producing the maximum amount of grain, a surplus and trade with the guys who focuses 100% on making tools even metallurgy, and some guys focus totally on fishing.

But back in Ancient Greece there were still many nomadic societies and nomadic groups tend to have less strict gender roles and everyone has to pull their own weight, both genders in a couple took their fair share in raising children and both males and female fought. The Mongols were an extremely powerful nomadic tribe and women were a major part of that armed force that swept all across Asia as an utterly dominating power.

And while the accuracy is disputed, the Amazon legend was extensively told in this time of entire tribes of warrior women, female warriors featured extensively in mythology, and archaeological evidence from that time show many females buried with weapons that bore the scars of battle.

In fact, in that day and age women were far far more likely to be combat trained than the women of today. Because they HAD to be. There was no UN, no sanctions, no humanitarian intervention, if you're tribe got defeated it was slavery and genocide for your group.

Armies of the ancient world used women to a far greater extent.

 

[Denamic]

Because if they're women, you have to be nicer to them.
Yay, sexism!

 

[Baron_Rouge]

I can see kinda where they're coming from...men in that day and age would be far, far more likely to be combat trained than women, given that I don't think the armies of the ancient world would have allowed women soldiers.

While it may seem like women have always been separated from combat duties, that wasn't always the case. In agricultural and settled societies women do tend to end up doing the menial tasks and men ended up forming a fighting elite, a professional army. This is the typical division of labour that you get when people specialise, few guys focus totally on producing the maximum amount of grain, a surplus and trade with the guys who focuses 100% on making tools even metallurgy, and some guys focus totally on fishing.

But back in Ancient Greece there were still many nomadic societies and nomadic groups tend to have less strict gender roles and everyone has to pull their own weight, both genders in a couple took their fair share in raising children and both males and female fought. The Mongols were an extremely powerful nomadic tribe and women were a major part of that armed force that swept all across Asia as an utterly dominating power.

And while the accuracy is disputed, the Amazon legend was extensively told in this time of entire tribes of warrior women, female warriors featured extensively in mythology, and archaeological evidence from that time show many females buried with weapons that bore the scars of battle.

In fact, in that day and age women were far far more likely to be combat trained than the women of today. Because they HAD to be. There was no UN, no sanctions, no humanitarian intervention, if you're tribe got defeated it was slavery and genocide for your group.

Armies of the ancient world used women to a far greater extent.

Huh! I never knew that! Thanks for educating me

 

[Treblaine]

Lets be clear: Conservatives preaching the conservative idology that women must cover up, must never be seen to act sexually, and are not permitted to have a role in popular if violent games even when all this is possible for males THAT GIVES WOMEN LESS POWER!

Yeah, I can totally see how ppl asking for a wider range of female characters are conservative. The truly progressive stance on media is knee-jerk defense of the status quo.

They are not asking for a wider range of characters, they are asking for whole aspects of female characters not to feature at all.

Who was it here who objected to Miranda in Mass Effect 2 as the perfect example of the supposed problem, to spite the range of other female characters all acting and depicted in very different ways in Mass Effect 2, they just want Miranda gone. It's not like it was JUST characters like Miranda in these series. There is not a complaint of "where is a female character like this" but rather the objection is "I don't want to see female characters under these broad characteristics".

So you see what you are saying about wanting more characters and preserving is totally irrelevant to the situation, to what the arguments are, it's the Straw Man fallacy.

Part of conservatism is rolling back recent advances to an older status quo, they want to go back to shaming women for showing their bodies or for being openly sexual, and to patronisingly forbid them from even being depicted as engaging in conflict. Part of being progressivism is PRESERVING such expression and representation, and fighting against those who seek to denigrate women are distinctly human: with passions, with furious commitment to a martial cause.

The conservatives forbid this progress, they fought against it and seek to roll it back. The staus quo NOW is one that was won through progressivism, and a conservative ideology is seeking to destroy it. It is PROGRESSIVE to defend the achievement of progressivism.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Who was it here who objected to Miranda in Mass Effect 2 as the perfect example of the supposed problem, to spite the range of other female characters all acting and depicted in very different ways in Mass Effect 2, they just want Miranda gone. It's not like it was JUST characters like Miranda in these series. There is not a complaint of "where is a female character like this" but rather the objection is "I don't want to see female characters under these broad characteristics".

A more accurate characterization of the criticism of sexism in Mass Effect is "these games bend over backwards to pander to neckbeards/dudebros, even when said pandering doesn't make sense in the context of story arcs/characterization/lore." You don't see nearly as many people getting on New Vegas' case over Gomorrah, on the other hand, because it fits the world they've made. It's a difference between a game where the writing follows the visual design and a game where the visual design follows the writing.

Part of conservatism is rolling back recent advances to an older status quo, they want to go back to shaming women for showing their bodies or for being openly sexual, and to patronisingly forbid them from even being depicted as engaging in conflict.

Sure. But that's not something that we can honestly say is a common feature of anti-sexism viewpoints in gaming. The most common request is for genuine variety in visual design and characterization.

OT: A corporation deciding it doesn't want to touch things involving violence and women with a ten-foot pole is not something I consider genuinely progressive, either. That's just some suits deciding they don't want this kind of controversy right now.

 

[Treblaine]

Who was it here who objected to Miranda in Mass Effect 2 as the perfect example of the supposed problem, to spite the range of other female characters all acting and depicted in very different ways in Mass Effect 2, they just want Miranda gone. It's not like it was JUST characters like Miranda in these series. There is not a complaint of "where is a female character like this" but rather the objection is "I don't want to see female characters under these broad characteristics".

A more accurate characterization of the criticism of sexism in Mass Effect is "these games bend over backwards to pander to neckbeards/dudebros, even when said pandering doesn't make sense in the context of story arcs/characterization/lore." You don't see nearly as many people getting on New Vegas' case over Gomorrah, on the other hand, because it fits the world they've made. It's a difference between a game where the writing follows the visual design and a game where the visual design follows the writing.

Part of conservatism is rolling back recent advances to an older status quo, they want to go back to shaming women for showing their bodies or for being openly sexual, and to patronisingly forbid them from even being depicted as engaging in conflict.

Sure. But that's not something that we can honestly say is a common feature of anti-sexism viewpoints in gaming. The most common request is for genuine variety in visual design and characterization.

OT: A corporation deciding it doesn't want to touch things involving violence and women with a ten-foot pole is not something I consider genuinely progressive, either. That's just some suits deciding they don't want this kind of controversy right now.

More accurate? You are blatantly giving a highly subjective and pejorative assessment and you call that more accurate?!?!?

What is so incongruous about Miranda? She is the ONE female who acts passionate and vaguely flirtatious, what is the problem with her wearing high heels when she doesn't do much combat duties, she's mostly on the ship on officer duties as far as I can tell. Get a grip. Mass Effect may have bad writing but that is bad writing, not a sexist contrivance.

BTW: yes I CAN say that is in common with an Anti-sexist viewpoint in gaming. I don't know what word you REALLY mean, but it is not Anti-sexist to exclude all female from your games to appease conservatives. And have no doubt, these people objecting to this ARE conservatives.

There is no controversy, this is conservatism's last dying gasps trolling the internet by pretending to be feminists and by word association pass as progressive.

 

[Kahunaburger]

A more accurate characterization of the criticism of sexism in Mass Effect is "these games bend over backwards to pander to neckbeards/dudebros, even when said pandering doesn't make sense in the context of story arcs/characterization/lore."

More accurate? You are blatantly giving a highly subjective and pejorative assessment and you call that more accurate?!?!?

As someone who [hipster]bashed Bioware before it was mainstream[/hipster] I can assure you that is a significantly more accurate description of the sort of criticism Mass Effect 2 received over visual design. You didn't see very much criticism over what Asari strippers wore,[footnote]You did, however, see some commentary on the unfortunate implications of said strippers almost always (possibly always, I can't think of a counter-example) lacking names and speaking roles.[/footnote] or over characters partially undressing for sex scenes (in fact, many people considered the sex scenes prudish). The criticism of sexism in character design generally focused on characters in combat wearing things that are objectively stupid to wear in a combat situation, or characters dressing in ways that are inconsistent with lore/characterization.

what is the problem with her wearing high heels when she doesn't do much combat duties, she's mostly on the ship on officer duties as far as I can tell

Well, considering that she's an early squaddie with what is arguably the best squaddie skill-set in the[footnote]Vanilla. Kasumi's flashbangs are pretty absurd.[/footnote] game, with the ability to hit every kind of defense and a flat damage boost to Shep that stacks with everything else, your average Mass Effect 2 player is going to have plenty of occasions to wonder why she opted for heels over armor in a particular fight.

 

[Treblaine]

A more accurate characterization of the criticism of sexism in Mass Effect is "these games bend over backwards to pander to neckbeards/dudebros, even when said pandering doesn't make sense in the context of story arcs/characterization/lore."

More accurate? You are blatantly giving a highly subjective and pejorative assessment and you call that more accurate?!?!?

As someone who [hipster]bashed Bioware before it was mainstream[/hipster] I can assure you that is a significantly more accurate description of the sort of criticism Mass Effect 2 received over visual design. You didn't see very much criticism over what Asari strippers wore,[footnote]You did, however, see some commentary on the unfortunate implications of said strippers almost always (possibly always, I can't think of a counter-example) lacking names and speaking roles.[footnote] or over characters partially undressing for sex scenes (in fact, many people considered the sex scenes prudish). The criticism of sexism in character design generally focused on characters in combat wearing things that are objectively stupid to wear in a combat situation, or characters dressing in ways that are inconsistent with lore/characterization.

what is the problem with her wearing high heels when she doesn't do much combat duties, she's mostly on the ship on officer duties as far as I can tell

Well, considering that she's an early squaddie with what is arguably the best squaddie skill-set in the[footnote]Vanilla. Kasumi's flashbangs are pretty absurd.[footnote] game, with the ability to hit every kind of defense and a flat damage boost to Shep that stacks with everything else, your average Mass Effect 2 player is going to have plenty of occasions to wonder why she opted for heels over armor in a particular fight.

I don't think you have the appropriately mature frame of mind to discuss this using terms like "whore". Less loaded and non-pejorative terms used by sex workers are "prostitute" or "sex worker". Please, stop using inflammatory terms as if you are being honest, you are only being honest with your prejudices, not honest about the game itself.

I have never gotten a straight answer from women on why the wear heels though I strongly get the impression it is not to be sexually appealing, it is so that they are in similar height to men, particularly on the same eye line so they are not looked down on. They may be uncomfortable and impractical, but high heels PURPOSE is empowering women to compensate for how they tend to be shorter than men. Height is a big factor in how people perceive each other.

Miranda does seem like the type of person to wear high heels, and I don't know why she wore them in combat, probably because the developers realised really late in the game they designed her character animations and model meshing all around wearing heels and it was too late. Anyway, it's my understanding the combat in Mass Effect is dependent highly upon this "technological magic" of the mass effect in shields and movement, heels aren't such a terrible problem.

Is there ever a scene in the game where she is reduced in her ability for wearing heels? If not, then de-facto they were NOT impractical.

So in summary: women don't wear heels to make men feel better, they wear heels to serve their own desire to be on more equal eye level with men who are taller. Probably the Rushed-by-EA development meant they didn't have time to animate Miranda's character twice, with and without heels and thought that if Trinity could be shown to wear heels in The Matrix, then so could Miranda.

For crap sake, why are you freaking out so much about her wearing high heels?!? Raiden and Vamp in the MGS series wore high heels:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/madamhydra/MGS4/mgs4-raiden-char-sheet.jpg

And people won't shut up about how awesome he was in MGS4, and he kicked extraordinary levels of buttcheeks... in high heels.

 

[Kahunaburger]

A more accurate characterization of the criticism of sexism in Mass Effect is "these games bend over backwards to pander to neckbeards/dudebros, even when said pandering doesn't make sense in the context of story arcs/characterization/lore."

More accurate? You are blatantly giving a highly subjective and pejorative assessment and you call that more accurate?!?!?

As someone who [hipster]bashed Bioware before it was mainstream[/hipster] I can assure you that is a significantly more accurate description of the sort of criticism Mass Effect 2 received over visual design. You didn't see very much criticism over what Asari strippers wore,[footnote]You did, however, see some commentary on the unfortunate implications of said strippers almost always (possibly always, I can't think of a counter-example) lacking names and speaking roles.[footnote] or over characters partially undressing for sex scenes (in fact, many people considered the sex scenes prudish). The criticism of sexism in character design generally focused on characters in combat wearing things that are objectively stupid to wear in a combat situation, or characters dressing in ways that are inconsistent with lore/characterization.

what is the problem with her wearing high heels when she doesn't do much combat duties, she's mostly on the ship on officer duties as far as I can tell

Well, considering that she's an early squaddie with what is arguably the best squaddie skill-set in the[footnote]Vanilla. Kasumi's flashbangs are pretty absurd.[footnote] game, with the ability to hit every kind of defense and a flat damage boost to Shep that stacks with everything else, your average Mass Effect 2 player is going to have plenty of occasions to wonder why she opted for heels over armor in a particular fight.

I don't think you have the appropriately mature frame of mind to discuss this using terms like "whore". Less loaded and non-pejorative terms used by sex workers are "prostitute" or "sex worker". Please, stop using inflammatory terms as if you are being honest, you are only being honest with your prejudices, not honest about the game itself.

Protip: making stuff up about what other people said doesn't work on the internet. Why? Because anyone who wants to fact-check your statements only has to look at the post you were responding to.

but high heels PURPOSE is empowering women

Still not seeing the utility of high heels in a firefight.

Miranda does seem like the type of person to wear high heels,

This I agree with. She doesn't seem like the type of person to wear them to a gunfight, though.

and I don't know why she wore them in combat, probably because the developers realised really late in the game they designed her character animations and model meshing all around wearing heels and it was too late.

Incidentally, this was the same excuse they used to justify the complete lack of female Turians in all three games, despite the fact that there was literally no lore reason that 50% or so of the Turians Shep meets would have been female. Also it's interesting to note that, while there are several male squadmates in Mass Effect 2 that wear combat gear 24/7, there are no female squadmates that do the same. The closest thing to this would be Tali/Kasumi wearing utility suits that have secondary combat functions.

For crap sake, why are you freaking out so much about her wearing high heels?!?

Nobody here is 'freaking out' about anything - I'm trying to help you understand where the criticism of Mass Effect 2 is coming from.

 

[WarpZone]

Oh my god. I can't believe I made it through all that. Seven. Pages. I read every word. It took hours. I feel like all the moisture has been sucked out of my throat and chest area. I think a piece of my soul died along the way.

Can we all please just agree that women should be treated as well as men in real life, and that it's okay for violent video games to continue to be a thing that exists?

 

[Treblaine]

I don't think you have the appropriately mature frame of mind to discuss this using terms like "whore". Less loaded and non-pejorative terms used by sex workers are "prostitute" or "sex worker". Please, stop using inflammatory terms as if you are being honest, you are only being honest with your prejudices, not honest about the game itself.

Protip: making stuff up about what other people said doesn't work on the internet. Why? Because anyone who wants to fact-check your statements only has to look at the post you were responding to.

but high heels PURPOSE is empowering women

Still not seeing the utility of high heels in a firefight.

Miranda does seem like the type of person to wear high heels,

This I agree with. She doesn't seem like the type of person to wear them to a gunfight, though.

and I don't know why she wore them in combat, probably because the developers realised really late in the game they designed her character animations and model meshing all around wearing heels and it was too late.

Incidentally, this was the same excuse they used to justify the complete lack of female Turians in all three games, despite the fact that there was literally no lore reason that 50% or so of the Turians Shep meets would have been female. Also it's interesting to note that, while there are several male squadmates in Mass Effect 2 that wear combat gear 24/7, there are no female squadmates that do the same. The closest thing to this would be Tali/Kasumi wearing utility suits that have secondary combat functions.

For crap sake, why are you freaking out so much about her wearing high heels?!?

Nobody here is 'freaking out' about anything - I'm trying to help you understand where the criticism of Mass Effect 2 is coming from.

I though when you said "stripper wore" you meant "stripper whore" with a common typo. My mistake.

Why ask me High heels in a firefight then IMMEDIATELY BELOW have a quote of explaining why? It's not a matter of utility, it's a design limitations. Mass Effect 2 is not ARMA, it hardly has the most authentic combat and ifs very broad reaching with so many options of who you can take on mission, almost anyone.

"complete lack of female Turians in all three games, despite the fact that there was literally no lore reason that 50% or so of the Turians Shep meets would have been female."

Well if he only met them in a martial context it's within the lore that only the male Turians are supported to go out fighting, adventuring and trading. That's not a lore reason, that's basic logical reasoning. It's not like anyone has ever watched a WWII movie set entirely on the front lines and complained "where are all the American women?" when America only sent male combatants into Europe. You also assume Turians reproduce exactly like humans (with 1:1 sex ratio rather than like bees with a queen) or that Turians even have distinct gender dimorphism. What if a female Turian looks and sound indistinguishable from male Turians? I can't tell a female cat from a male cat from jsut looking at their heads.

Really, why are you concerned about this? This is Mass Effect, it's soft sci-fi, they aren't going to have well thought out and scientifically accurate species. I mean why do they look so human? Two arms, two legs, no tail, two eyes above a nose that is above a mouth. Even Krogen are too coincidentally similar to humans.

I JUST ESTABLISHED that developer were limited in time for animations for in combat gear vs more social atire, then you ask me why some guys wore combat gear 24/7?!?! There is the answer. For many characters they had one model for all, or at least one animation mesh that only works when wearing similarly bulking/elevating attire. The developers probably wrote these male character with combat more in mind, but to give MORE OPTIONS, had them active on the ship relaxing in combat suit and Miranda in Combat when animator meshing with the model was more focused on Miranda's role on the ship. At least the developers were INCLUSIVE enough to let Miranda have a major combat role rather than just be some on-ship love interests.

Jebus Christo, this is just rushed development. Yet things like this are held up by a previous poster as the "worst examples of vicious sexism in the industry". People are freaking out. $160'000 of freaking out to Sarkeesian just to show how out of their freaking minds with concern they are. Over nothing.

This isn't genuine concern, this is criticism of rushed development contorted into some kind of anti-woman conspiracy theory. This is foregone prejudice working backwards to support a prior conclusion, ignoring any evidence and logic to the contrary.

 

[cobra_ky]

I have never gotten a straight answer from women on why the wear heels though I strongly get the impression it is not to be sexually appealing, it is so that they are in similar height to men, particularly on the same eye line so they are not looked down on. They may be uncomfortable and impractical, but high heels PURPOSE is empowering women to compensate for how they tend to be shorter than men. Height is a big factor in how people perceive each other.

If this were true, then strippers performing on stage wouldn't have to wear high heels. In fact, heels are the one article of clothing a stripper will almost never take off. It's purely about sex appeal.

If it was just about height, wouldn't platform shoes be a lot more comfortable?

 

[Something Amyss]

It's pretty ridiculous. The reason why hitman and tomb raider were heavily debated was the sexualisation of the violence not the violence itself. If the nuns had attacked in full appropriate combat gear then I wouldn't have a problem with that sequence. As it is they chose to dress them in bondage gear to titillate guys

They have no clue as to the issue at hand.

If they gave a choice to play as a female Kratos. Now that would be equality.

Yeah, there have been plenty of games where women were hurt without real repercussions or outrage. Hell, God of War 3 is one of those games. If this was the issue, there would have been a shitstorm ages ago.

A female Kratos? Hmmm...Sounds good.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Why ask me High heels in a firefight then IMMEDIATELY BELOW have a quote of explaining why?

The "they didn't have time to model non-stupid gear" excuse isn't very convincing. They clearly had time to put quite a few models/animations/textures in that game - it's a question of priorities.

Well if he only met them in a martial context

Garrus + other Turians mention Turian women in the military, and there are female Turian soldiers/officers in the tie-in fiction. And Shepard interacts with aliens in a variety of contexts, not just military.

it's within the lore that only the male Turians are supported to go out fighting, adventuring and trading. That's not a lore reason, that's basic logical reasoning. It's not like anyone has ever watched a WWII movie set entirely on the front lines and complained "where are all the American women?" when America only sent male combatants into Europe.

Please elaborate on how that's "basic logical reasoning."

You also assume Turians reproduce exactly like humans (with 1:1 sex ratio rather than like bees with a queen) or that Turians even have distinct gender dimorphism. What if a female Turian looks and sound indistinguishable from male Turians? I can't tell a female cat from a male cat from jsut looking at their heads.

It is interesting to me that they didn't go the "Turians don't have secondary sexual characteristics that are visible to humans" route, a la the Hanar and the Elcor. And they did do the "all the members of this species you meet are male, the females are either very rare or in the space kitchen" excuse with the Salarians and Krogan.

Although this is all speculation. The route they ended up taking is that female Turians can occupy the same position in society as male Turians (Turian society is meritocratic) and that female Turians look like this [http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Abrudas].

Really, why are you concerned about this? This is Mass Effect, it's soft sci-fi, they aren't going to have well thought out and scientifically accurate species.

I would be the last person to accuse the Mass Effect team of thinking their games out completely.

You want to know the actual reason there are no female Turians in the Mass Effect games?

They're all males in the game. We usually... try and avoid the females, 'cause... what do you do with a female Turian? Give her breasts, put lipstick on her?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3oypQkMsFE

So, yeah, you basically put more thought into making excuses for Bioware than their art team apparently put into the design of female Turians. Also note the lack of the "no time to draw females of this species T.T" that some fans latched on to.

I JUST ESTABLISHED that developer were limited in time for animations for in combat gear vs more social atire, then you ask me why some guys wore combat gear 24/7?!?! There is the answer. For many characters they had one model for all, or at least one animation mesh that only works when wearing similarly bulking/elevating attire. The developers probably wrote these male character with combat more in mind, but to give MORE OPTIONS, had them active on the ship relaxing in combat suit and Miranda in Combat when animator meshing with the model was more focused on Miranda's role on the ship.

And this establishes Miranda's character design as non-problematic... how?

At least the developers were INCLUSIVE enough to let Miranda have a major combat role rather than just be some on-ship love interests.

But they weren't "inclusive" enough to take this combat role seriously when working on the visual design for her character.

"worst examples of vicious sexism in the industry".

I don't think it is. Bioware actually does make serious attempts to be progressive. But it is interesting (and hopefully instructive) to look at where these attempts succeed and where they fail.

 

[1337mokro]

I already said non-human creatures don't count.

Yeah, you can't base any argument on such a contrived and self-serving assertion.

Really? Tell me Gorgons are they male or female or both? The sisters of time. Do they have reproductive organs? Are they even in need of having genders or did people just name them sisters because they resemble feminine characteristics of mankind?

How do you sex a giant pile of stones powered by a crystal? The voice? Gaia could just be asexual. How can you tell that the Minotaurs are only males? Could be that there are some females there, I never saw a big dangling cock anywhere so who knows? Maybe the huge muscle mass has the same effect on their udders as it has on human breasts.

You see? If we accept mythical creatures in the mix we don't know what the fuck they are. Half of the enemies you fight COULD be females of their respective species.

So yeah. Self-serving... a bit yes. Any argument is self-serving after all you use them to strengthen your own position. But please do call back to me once you an analysis of the manticore's gender.

Hmm, are the SISTERS OF TIME female? Really? Because you just reckon that they don't have reproductive organs?

My aunt had a hysterectomy, are you saying she isn't a woman for lack of critical reproductive organs?

The point is those individuals depicted in the game are clearly female or male.

You don't seem to care how this arbitrary definition is so self-serving your convoluted argument. The key part is CONTRIVED and ARBITRARY! You have just made stuff up to suit yourself, a baseless assertion that they cannot be female to spite having breasts and distinct feminine features because of an irrelevant and ignorant scientific definition of what is female.

You remind me of this South American court who sentenced a female criminal to serve her sentence in a mens prison, she was a woman, she lived as a woman, looked like a woman, had breasts, feminine features and voice and medical examination showed she had a vagina... but she had XY chromosomes and was incapable of having a child. She had testes instead of ovaries, but a genetic disorder meant not a single cell in her body would respond to Testosterone so she developed as a woman, as if there was no testosterone in her body. And because of a bone headed and ignorant definition she had to share a prison with serial rapists and suffered for it.

We DO know that gender mythical creatures are, you haven't made clear why we wouldn't know. Are you saying you cannot tell that Zeus is a man because he wasn't born like a human of a woman? Or that it is impossible to tell to spite the masculine brow and long thick beard? Nah, you're not convincing anyone with this contrived nonsense.

Your aunt had them once right? I like how you personalize this conflict about how we sex mythical beings. My "enter relative" had "enter procedure" so you are disrespecting them. No I'm not.

You know why we don't know if the sisters even have a gender? Because the sisters never have offspring nor do they have male counterparts. My point here is these are immortal, never dying beings that are made up of blacks smoke, have horrible 4 armed and 4 breasted bodies and somehow are all related to each other. So they are one and the same species yet they are female? Why? Isn't it just symbolism?

You know why Zeus is a man? Because when he bonks another god that is a woman a baby pops out. You know why he is a man? Because he has the appearance of one.
You know why he is a man? Because in the GoW universe Gods are basically magicians.

So if it's a god that walks, talks and quacks like a human male, it probably is a male.

Well then if you KNOW the gender of the mythical beasts, please do tell me was that manticore you fought a male or a female. Based on which characteristics.

Also nice try with the Southern court thing, a typical American argument, the south is after all synonymous with Retard for you people. So nice go there being both insulting and hypocritical in the same sentence there buddy.

Guess what, that man suffered from Androgen insensitivity syndrome. Unless you provide a link I have no idea what that man looks like, nor the severity of his condition. However here is the thing, a man with Androgen insensitivity syndrome is still man. No matter the physical properties.

Here is the reason why that man was sent to a Male Prison. Because he still had the balls. A transsexual that has not undergone a complete treatment will be housed in the prison of their original gender. They will also be put into protective custody for their own safety. So either your story is complete bullshit "Cough" no link "Cough" or the prison and legal system horribly neglected their job.