Ground Zeroes Rape Apologists Baffle Me

[gargantual]

"Rap Apologist"

C'mon now man. You may not be a fan of the genre but you can't deny the influence its had. ^_^

I'm getting so sick of being accused of being a rapper

I got to say, in a thread full of hate and shit, the missing of one letter changed the tone to something a lot better.






Unless someone here likes rap, that filthy scum.

Yeah, the pricks. It's not like its arguably the genre that has seen most interesting development in the past 25 years, if you can ignore the torrents of awful mainstream rap.

I'm glad i missed that letter ^_^. It's given this thread some needed levity where there was only drama.

I blame the man who made the most money off of it. I'm calling it folks. Puff Daddy is hip hop's Bobby Kotick.

 

[gargantual]

People who make weirdly unnecessary rants whacking at strawmen all while completely misunderstanding or misappropriating the actual events of the game they're talking about baffle me.

Seriously, is this really going to be the next big nontroversy the gaming community latches on to? Murder is a pretty damn sensitive topic too, and yet people never seem to have a problem with the mass murdering that almost every game has you do throughout its running time.

I think it's up to each game to find the appropriate tone and story to fit such mass murdering. I don't mind shooting goons in a noir plot like Max Payne's, because it's noir. I don't mind shooting soldiers in CoD, because that's what war is about. I don't mind killing everything in God of War, because you're the God of War. I don't mind killing people in Borderlands, because it's a funny game with over-the-top character designs and death animations and freaky dialogue framed by a Russian madman's tall tale that goes on and off into tangents.

In Metal Gear's case, it's this purportedly serious tale of courage and patriotism and sacrifice and Skeletor and vaginal bomb devices that simply repels me.

The patriotism kinda got subverted from the very start of this series. We're playing to see Big Boss the villain fully realized. This was the first video game series in my youth that brought up the idea, it was all an imperialist hoax, and asked why are you still fighting?

 

[Fsyco]

"Rap Apologist"

C'mon now man. You may not be a fan of the genre but you can't deny the influence its had. ^_^

I'm getting so sick of being accused of being a rapper

I got to say, in a thread full of hate and shit, the missing of one letter changed the tone to something a lot better.






Unless someone here likes rap, that filthy scum.

Yeah, the pricks. It's not like its arguably the genre that has seen most interesting development in the past 25 years, if you can ignore the torrents of awful mainstream rap.

I'm glad i missed that letter ^_^. It's given this thread some needed levity where there was only drama.

We should start a separate thread about hip hop. Zomg you guys. Calling it right now: Lil Wayne and his ilk have ushered in rap's 'hair metal' and some underground rap act is going to get really big and kill that trend (assuming that hasnt already happened, what with Lorde and Macklemore getting big last year).

I had always assumed Kojima just had a fetish for the thing, which certainly upped the creep factor while playing the game.

I wouldn't call it a fetish. Toilet humour is universally and primally funny. Studies have shown that no matter where you come from, farts are funny. People with brain damage that can't get high-minded jokes still think farts are funny. Personally, I think he went a bit overboard and I just ended up rolling my eyes, but I wouldn't say that Kojima is a scatophile. The recurring gag of people wetting themselves was funnier to me, anyway, since he didn't draw it out the same way Johnny Shatterbrain did in #4.

 

[sageoftruth]

"Rap Apologist"

C'mon now man. You may not be a fan of the genre but you can't deny the influence its had. ^_^

I'm getting so sick of being accused of being a rapper

I got to say, in a thread full of hate and shit, the missing of one letter changed the tone to something a lot better.






Unless someone here likes rap, that filthy scum.

Yeah, the pricks. It's not like its arguably the genre that has seen most interesting development in the past 25 years, if you can ignore the torrents of awful mainstream rap.

I'm glad i missed that letter ^_^. It's given this thread some needed levity where there was only drama.

We should start a separate thread about hip hop. Zomg you guys. Calling it right now: Lil Wayne and his ilk have ushered in rap's 'hair metal' and some underground rap act is going to get really big and kill that trend (assuming that hasnt already happened, what with Lorde and Macklemore getting big last year).

I had always assumed Kojima just had a fetish for the thing, which certainly upped the creep factor while playing the game.

I wouldn't call it a fetish. Toilet humour is universally and primally funny. Studies have shown that no matter where you come from, farts are funny. People with brain damage that can't get high-minded jokes still think farts are funny. Personally, I think he went a bit overboard and I just ended up rolling my eyes, but I wouldn't say that Kojima is a scatophile. The recurring gag of people wetting themselves was funnier to me, anyway, since he didn't draw it out the same way Johnny Shatterbrain did in #4.

He certainly chose the strangest times to pull it. It hardly felt like a comic moment when Emma Emmerich wet herself during her first appearance in MGS2, or when Sokolov wet himself when Ocelot was gambling with Sokolov's life in his own version of Russian Roulette. Both scenes took places in dark moments in the game and were kind of hard to laugh at. I guess it could work as offbeat humor.
When I was Raiden in MGS2 and had to shimmy right under an unaware guard's pee stream, it just felt dirty.

 

[Namehere]

Seriously, is this really going to be the next big nontroversy the gaming community latches on to? Murder is a pretty damn sensitive topic too, and yet people never seem to have a problem with the mass murdering that almost every game has you do throughout its running time.

Killing can be justified - ranging from pop cultural depictions of wronged people seeking revenge to patriotism asking you to kill foreigners attacking your country. Rape is never justified.

And death in videogames is always portrayed unrealistically. Hitting people with a car in Saints Row and seeing them ragdolling away is more hilarious than traumatizing, and the characters in Soul Calibur won't be standing in real life after being face-stabbed several times. Video game doesn't usually depict death in such detailed manner. I would suggest you give this video a watch for further explanation.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6692-Desensitized-to-Violence

Killing can be impersonal (you never give a second thought to the pedestrians you run over in GTA). Rape is intensely personal. They aren't the same thing.

I'm sorry; seriously? Killing 'can' be justified? Which is true, there's always extreme cases of self defense. Revenge and patriotism are hardly valid justifications - although linguistically, I suppose they are justifications. With that in mind... "I'm a horny rapist so I raped someone," is a justification, but like patriotism and revenge is hardly perceived publicly as valid.

And quite frankly if face to face killing leaves you as morally attached to the action in a video game as flying missions over Germany and bombing civilian populations and munitions factories alike, the game is doing something wrong more then likely... one hopes... And if killing is just that moving, why is rape any more serious in a VIDEO GAME? You aren't arranging that Sandy Hook forum on Video Game Addiction are you? Frightening times.

I guess I'll get more concerned when a game comes out for xbone and the add shows a group of people doing the Duck Man for their rape scenes. I still doubt it's going to be horribly realistic but I might worry at that point... Anyone else hear bad disco?

I suppose this is little more absurd then American infantry being flown in to combat on helicopters that AK fire could get through, prompting them to sit on their helmets instead of wearing them. And that level of absurdity certainly didn't lead to atrocity... Did it? Don't be absurd.

 

[jSalamanca32]

The "murder vs rape" comparison is invalid because people take murder very seriously in the real world.

The problem with portraying rape in popular culture is that, if not handled with care, it adds to the problem of people not taking rape seriously.

Additionally, the issue is that Kojima is hideously tone deaf about the whole issue.

The rape doesn't contribute to the themes, it doesn't contribute in any meaningful way to the story (other than some plot logic terms, which is a separate thing entirely) Kojima says nothing about rape. It's there for pure shock value.

 

[Strazdas]

Lets start off by saying i have not played the game, so i will assume what the people post here for what happened in the game, and if im wrong, then im wrong.

There is nothing wrong with portrayal of rape in games. rape is a fact of life. It happens. And games should be allowed to portray it just like they are allowed to portray everything else (except nazis being human. god forbid people get to learn that nazis were humans too, isntant scandal)

Now, rape is not something we desire in our society, however surveys show that as much as a third of women have rape fantasies and as much as a quarter of rape victims enjoy it due to how human bodies are set up (essentialy pleasure nerves override logical thinking). There is also different degrees of rape, ragnign from beating somone into submission to somone being logically impaired (for example drunk) coming onto you. it is not a thing you can oversimplify.

And death in videogames is always portrayed unrealistically. Hitting people with a car in Saints Row and seeing them ragdolling away is more hilarious than traumatizing, and the characters in Soul Calibur won't be standing in real life after being face-stabbed several times.

let me guess, you never played manhunt? and you pick examples from games that intentionaly try to be cartoonish? thats pretty poor argument you got here.

Revenge is not an excuse for killing. Patriotism is a shitty excuse for killing.

That is, in the real world.

Even to protect yourself and your loved ones from harm? I'm not talking about things like extrajudicial killings of civilians. Are you certain there are absolutely no cases where killing is justified?

self defence is neither revenge nor patriotism, so im not sure how you even came to that response here.

and seeing Monica Bellucci brutalized in Irreversible.

to my knowledge that was actually one of the realistic movie depictions, to the point where they actually done it during the filming (not raping, but forced sex). Yet it still is a fappable material, something i could not say about Nymphomaniac (latest Lars Von Trier movie) even though it depics much more sex scenes. Its all about presentation.

No, it's the "Why is this suddenly not okay when it was before" question.

why is it suddenly not okay to be racist when it was before?
i dont think i even need to explain that one.....

There's literally no reason that there had to be a boss fight that starts in the middle of a sexual assault, but there you go. Complaints? Zero.

actually, the mainstream media had quite an outrage when SH2 released. so there was complaints, plenty.

 

[lacktheknack]

There's literally no reason that there had to be a boss fight that starts in the middle of a sexual assault, but there you go. Complaints? Zero.

actually, the mainstream media had quite an outrage when SH2 released. so there was complaints, plenty.

But not now.

If the people complaining about the MGS "rape scene" had a shred of integrity, they'd at least admit that the Silent Hill 2 stuff is equally egregious.

And yet... they don't.

 

[Strazdas]

Hahah, that was good.
"Dude, why are you looking like a baby?"
"Hush, man, I'm undercover in a maternity ward..."

so a 20 year old woman could not pass as a 19 year old woman (the age where high school usually ends)?

Game of Thrones, the dragon girl is 13 and gets forced married with a barbarian who rapes her every night, and made to ride a horse until her legs bleed. Yet she eventually learns to love it. "What? She's been raped till she enjoyed it?"

i think the problem is that most people only saw the TV show, in which she is cearly above 13 (most characters are aged in the show sadly).
Actually reading the books helps uderstand a lot of the motivation behind daenerys much better than the show managed.

Wait... you see no problem with someone being into teenage girls, that is, underage girls? You know, statutory rape laws are there for a reason. Would there be no "rational reason" to find being into children, sexually, for you as well?

there is nothing "Wrong" with it from a biological perspective. our bodies become sexually active in our teenage years. It is perfectly normal to feel sexually attractive to sexually mature people, and that happens during the 11-14 year of age period of our lives. The reason we do not allow sex till 18 is because pregnancy is a heavy burden not every young body can sustain, however with the increased ability to use safety this becomes less of an issue and you see laws being relaxed. Majority of the world has a legal sex age of 16 years, bellow the legal driving or drinking age.

On the other hand, children, as in before sexual maturity, has no reason to be sexually attractive as they arent sexually matured, and this is why its classified as a disorder. DO not that people do not "choose" to be sexually attractive to underage girls, just like people do not "Choose" to be gay.

I agree with putting the age of consent at 18. It wasn't a random decision. Sure, part of a person is still juvenile at 18, and I say (and biology agrees with me) that people haven't really fully developed until their late 20s, and even then, the learning never quite stops (which is why there's that classic rule that we should respect our elders).

it is actually harmful to our bodies to be sexually abstent in our teenage years, which is why masturbation is actually encouraged by the professionals. 18 IS a random number. there is no biological barrier at that age. 21 is a much better picked number due to biological developement for example, as many biological developements stop at around that time that were present in teen years. that being said, one age limit is not all encompasing or fitting in the least and there is more than biology to consider.

The "murder vs rape" comparison is invalid because people take murder very seriously in the real world.

and... people dont take rape seriously in real world?

But not now.

If the people complaining about the MGS "rape scene" had a shred of integrity, they'd at least admit that the Silent Hill 2 stuff is equally egregious.

And yet... they don't.

The outrage was around the release of SH2. The outrage is around ground zeries release. i dont see a problem here. its less of "i find this worse" but rather a "This just came out and everyone know about it". honestly, how many people play silent hill 2 for the first time nowadays?

 

[nevarran]

so a 20 year old woman could not pass as a 19 year old woman (the age where high school usually ends)?

A 20 year old? Sure, she can.
That kid from OP's post? The only thing she can pass is... a KID.

 

[Strazdas]

so a 20 year old woman could not pass as a 19 year old woman (the age where high school usually ends)?

A 20 year old? Sure, she can.
That kid from OP's post? The only thing she can pass is... a KID.

well, if you bothered to actually read other poster resposnes, you would have known that the woman in OPs post is actually 20.

 

[CloudAtlas]

so a 20 year old woman could not pass as a 19 year old woman (the age where high school usually ends)?

A 20 year old? Sure, she can.
That kid from OP's post? The only thing she can pass is... a KID.

well, if you bothered to actually read other poster resposnes, you would have known that the woman in OPs post is actually 20.

What matters is how old she appears to be, not the age that is written in some codex or something.

 

[Terminal Blue]

...I honestly can't tell if you're serious. It doesn't matter what her actual age is? The fuck?

The real age would matter if we were talking about a real person, which we aren't. Fictional characters don't actually have ages (unless you count the age from when they were thought up or made their first appearance in the medium in question). They are not actual people. They don't really exist. They are just representations of people. Therefore, what matters is the representation.

Preserving that line is kind of important.

 

[nevarran]

well, if you bothered to actually read other poster resposnes, you would have known that the woman in OPs post is actually 20.

They may as well say she's 70 year old, it changes nothing, because she looks like a kid.
If the authors wanted her to be a 20 year old, they should've made her look the part.
Like evilthecat said, this is not a real person, what some document says is irrelevant. It is a visual representation of a KID.

 

[Strazdas]

so a 20 year old woman could not pass as a 19 year old woman (the age where high school usually ends)?

A 20 year old? Sure, she can.
That kid from OP's post? The only thing she can pass is... a KID.

well, if you bothered to actually read other poster resposnes, you would have known that the woman in OPs post is actually 20.

What matters is how old she appears to be, not the age that is written in some codex or something.

No, it does not. because not all women appear identically at same age. there ARE real life women that look like her at 20. There are short women. Just because you dont like the look it is no reason to insult all women that look like that.

They may as well say she's 70 year old, it changes nothing, because she looks like a kid.
If the authors wanted her to be a 20 year old, they should've made her look the part.
Like evilthecat said, this is not a real person, what some document says is irrelevant. It is a visual representation of a KID.

Good job insulting every short women out there.

 

[The_Echo]

God.
Fucking.
Dammit.

I took some time away from the Escapist and I come back to more of this shit.

Controversy for controversy's sake.
No good reason. Just because.
I wish so hard that this could just stop. I really do.

snip

Look. I'm coming in here way late but here's my two cents.
Rape happens.
It happens to normal people and you can sure as hell bet that it happens to prisoners.
It's ugly.
If the implied rape in Ground Zeroes made you uncomfortable, then it did its job.

Metal Gear Solid V is not going to be like previous Metal Gears. Y'know, the sort of spy-action story sprinkled with cooky characters and a dash of the supernatural. I mean, maybe that'll still be there. But at the core, it's the story of a once-great soldier falling to rock bottom, only to rise up again as a completely different man. A villain. It's not something that's going to make you feel good.
It's going to be a rough ride and this is just the first stretch.

People like you, kicking up a shitstorm over stuff like this... I don't understand. Are video games not allowed to touch rape? Is that some kind of... is there something wrong with that? Why?

And the real kicker: it was only ever alluded to. No graphic displays in a cutscene. No straight-up "they're raping me!" It's just muffled noises and suggestive language on an audio tape that you might not even pick up.

That's nothing. Nothing. Ground Zeroes barely even touches the concept of rape, and already people are up in arms over it.

People keep wanting games to move forward, to become art, to be taken seriously. Whatever the case may be. But nobody's letting it happen because of shit like this.

Yes I mad.