Gun nuts (Common mistakes)
- Thread starter theloneassassin
- Start date
Recommended Videos
When im watching movies or playing fps games i look for errors of how various firearms are described, depicted and how they are operated. I also usually point out these errors to anyone who is also watching/playing.
Most of the firearms mistakes that make me cringe at least in films, have already been posted id like add these game related ones.
many games devs do not understand how a belt fed machine gun works or are just too lazy/cheap to create the animation, but i noticed i many fps games, that after i have fired off the last of my ammo belt, there is still an ammo belt hanging from the side of my gun,and it is pulled away in the reload animation. wrong. in a select few games, you can watch the last few rounds of an Mg belt being pulled into the gun, just like in real life. Use a belt fed MG in any recent CoD or BC2 and you'll see what i mean. Hopefully the animation is correct in BF3.
another common error is the reload animations with magazine fed weapons. BC2 made lots of errors here. For example, the AK, when loading from empty, after a new magazine is inserted, the charging handle must be pulled back and released to chamber a round. this dosent happen, so in real life the weapon would not be able to fire as there is no round in the chamber. This is repeated with the G3, and most other assault rifles in that game.
A little attention to detail, and some research on how various firearms function would greatly benefit the video game and film industry and lead to more realistic representations of real weapons in games and films.
Most of the firearms mistakes that make me cringe at least in films, have already been posted id like add these game related ones.
many games devs do not understand how a belt fed machine gun works or are just too lazy/cheap to create the animation, but i noticed i many fps games, that after i have fired off the last of my ammo belt, there is still an ammo belt hanging from the side of my gun,and it is pulled away in the reload animation. wrong. in a select few games, you can watch the last few rounds of an Mg belt being pulled into the gun, just like in real life. Use a belt fed MG in any recent CoD or BC2 and you'll see what i mean. Hopefully the animation is correct in BF3.
another common error is the reload animations with magazine fed weapons. BC2 made lots of errors here. For example, the AK, when loading from empty, after a new magazine is inserted, the charging handle must be pulled back and released to chamber a round. this dosent happen, so in real life the weapon would not be able to fire as there is no round in the chamber. This is repeated with the G3, and most other assault rifles in that game.
A little attention to detail, and some research on how various firearms function would greatly benefit the video game and film industry and lead to more realistic representations of real weapons in games and films.
I guess this (especially in this case) really doesn't bother me. Unless specified otherwise, when someone says they have a .22 it means its a small bore rifle, either bolt action or clip fed depending. But unless they specifically say... it was a .22 lr hand gun (or something of the sorts), I assume a .22 is a small rifle. Maybe that is because I grew up w/ ppl that used .22 to describe that specific type of weapon and would further specify if it wasn't "the norm" of a .22.theloneassassin said:
dont much about guns but the idea that a pistol can be fired accurately with only one hand and duel wielding can be accurate in the slightest is facepalm worthy.
no knoledge of guns and prefer games staying as unreal as possible
no knoledge of guns and prefer games staying as unreal as possible
I'm not a gun not by any stretch, but I am familiar with firearms, and I die a little inside when in cheesy action movies somebody uses the pump-action shotgun as an exclamation point, as if they have a sidekick whose only job is to follow them around and pick up all the unused shotgun rounds that get spit onto the floor due to gratuitous cocking.
I'm also a big fan of that magical noise guns make every time you raise them, especially when you do so a part of a group.
I'm also a big fan of that magical noise guns make every time you raise them, especially when you do so a part of a group.
I'll add another thing (mainly because I own an AK-47) is how you "combat reload"/"Really fucking quickly reload" an AK-47.
Seriously, who takes the magazine out with their thumb and what not?!
[Granted, I do know about saving the magazine, but in the shit of the battle, you will disregard it in the dire situation of getting rounds down range. video to follow]
In the shit, you use the NEXT MAGAZINE to hit the magazine catch to release the empty mag. Then you insert the fresh magazine.
I do not believe this is the "END ALL" way to reload an AK-47. Though, in the shit, it is the fastest way.
My AK for kicks.
The ONLY time I have IRL dual wielded pistols, they were .22LR's. Target was a computer monitor and 20 yards. With the 16 rounds I had on tap. My friend counted 4 that landed.
Anyways, video games lie. Don't dual wield anything less than MAC-10's, because that is gansta. /sarcasm. [on the MAC-10's, the .22's were a IRL test.]
Seriously, who takes the magazine out with their thumb and what not?!
[Granted, I do know about saving the magazine, but in the shit of the battle, you will disregard it in the dire situation of getting rounds down range. video to follow]
In the shit, you use the NEXT MAGAZINE to hit the magazine catch to release the empty mag. Then you insert the fresh magazine.
I do not believe this is the "END ALL" way to reload an AK-47. Though, in the shit, it is the fastest way.
My AK for kicks.
I want to address this to some point.crimsonshrouds said:
The ONLY time I have IRL dual wielded pistols, they were .22LR's. Target was a computer monitor and 20 yards. With the 16 rounds I had on tap. My friend counted 4 that landed.
Anyways, video games lie. Don't dual wield anything less than MAC-10's, because that is gansta. /sarcasm. [on the MAC-10's, the .22's were a IRL test.]
Lack of reloading, seemingly unlimited ammo, very rarely do the guns have any recoil, hip firing is always more accurate than shoulder firing, massive amounts of ammo wasted (10 rounds in 1 guy, I think that is enough). Every nameless henchmen having Stormtrooper aim.
Hollywood can't get any kind of weapon right.
And the magical *schiiiiiing* noise swords make when drawn. I have many varieties of swords, none go *schiiiiiiing* and how cool people carry their swords on their backs. Link's sword (for example) clips through his sheath whenever he draws or puts it up. You can't draw a longsword (like the katana, which is what most every media sword HAS to be for some reason) from your back, you physically cannot. At least, without it being incredibly awkward and quite slow.jrubal1462 said:
Hollywood can't get any kind of weapon right.
Actually the russian military had some truly silent guns, a revolver and some kind of breech loaded pistol used by special forces. It was silent because the bullets used were actually specially made with some kind of piston being pushed by the gunpowder which in turn pushed the bullet out. No escaping gases = no noise other than the hammerfall and the loud metallic noise of the piston...thingy. If I recall correctly though the things weren't great with power or accuracy and basically had to be used at less than 20-30 meters.theloneassassin said:
CLIP =/= MAGAZINE
Oh man, I hate that one so much. Its my irrational pet peeve. Here's a good tip for deciding if something is a clip or magazine: its a magazine. Unless you're talking about revolvers, which you probably aren't because everyone want to feel like a badass and thumb rounds in individually, or a M1 Garand, which you're probably not because if you had one you would know the difference already; its not a clip.
Oh man, I hate that one so much. Its my irrational pet peeve. Here's a good tip for deciding if something is a clip or magazine: its a magazine. Unless you're talking about revolvers, which you probably aren't because everyone want to feel like a badass and thumb rounds in individually, or a M1 Garand, which you're probably not because if you had one you would know the difference already; its not a clip.
I was really annoyed in reading one of the millenium books where they constantly referred to hollowpoints as "hunting ammunition", these were police officers talking, why wouldn't the use the correct terminology?
The people who think that if everyone had a gun people would actually be safer, that really REALLY bugs me.
And on the whole silencer thing; if you shoot the right ammo with it it is pretty whisper quiet. I don't remember where i saw it but either during or shortly after WWII the British had modified the sten ( i think Sten is the right name, it had the clip on the side?) for their special forces. That was stupidly quiet, but agian, the ammo helps too.
And on the whole silencer thing; if you shoot the right ammo with it it is pretty whisper quiet. I don't remember where i saw it but either during or shortly after WWII the British had modified the sten ( i think Sten is the right name, it had the clip on the side?) for their special forces. That was stupidly quiet, but agian, the ammo helps too.
Caution ? wall of text. ;-)
Assault rifles generally use the .223 (or, near as makes no difference, 5.56mm) cartridge, which is a full-size centre-fire cartridge. But they are never referred to as .22 ? because they aren't.
.003" makes a big difference in ballistics.
So the capability's there ? whether the circumstances in the film work in its favour is another matter. ;-)
Cocking the hammer manually is needed on any revolver or pistol (regardless of vintage) that fires in single-action mode only. With automatics, racking the slide to chamber a round will cock the hammer as part of that mechanism, but it can be decocked for safer carry ? then it needs to be manually cocked to fire. That's why many people who carry 1911s tend to carry them "cocked and locked"; in other words, hammer cocked and safety on.
DA/SA pistols ? like the Sig P220 series, for instance, or Beretta's 92 range, or the vast majority of pistols from the 60s through to about the early 90s ? are loaded and chambered just the same, but can then be decocked so the hammer is dropped safely without impacting the firing pin. They're then drawn and fired in a double-action mode ? where pulling the trigger first cocks the hammer ? and subsequent shots are fired in single-action. The main downside with this is that the first shot has a heavier trigger pull and can tend to go wide.
It's worth noting, by the way, that 20th-century firearms have tended not to really go out of fashion ? new developments come along, but older mechanisms still stick around. The 1911, for instance, is still as popular as ever, the US Army still retain the M9, and so on.
DAO (Double Action Only) pistols don't leave the hammer cocked after firing, and always fire with the heavier trigger pull.
Striker-fired pistols don't have an external hammer ? the Glock pistol is probably the most notable example. More on them later.
You're right, though, about the knife ? in general, if someone has a knife within seven metres of you, you won't have time to draw and fire a gun.
In retrospect, of course, I'd simply been sloppy with my trigger finger placement. So that's how safe these guns are ? you can even pull the trigger, and they won't go off unless you pull the trigger the right way.
But yeah, miniguns firing with distinguishable shots annoy me ? that's why I was so pleased when I watched Black Hawk Down the first time.
Another related thing: miniguns spooling up in computer games. Real miniguns load and fire based on the rotation of the barrel assembly, and while some have clutches to stop rounds loading after releasing the trigger, they start firing as soon as the barrels start revolving. Always annoys me, particularly in games that should know better.
But the daddy of them all has to be the De Lisle carbine, developed during WW2. It fired .45 ACP rounds ? big, heavy, slow rounds ? through an integral suppressor. Almost completely silent, except for the firing pin falling, and on that rifle that's not a loud sound.
Revolvers generally can't be suppressed ? after all, for the cylinder to be able to rotate, there has to be some clearance between the frame and the cylinder, and firing gasses escape through that. I have heard of the suppressed revolver you mention ? some custom job ? but I can't remember anything about it. The key point is that in films, they suppress revolvers all the time, and it simply doesn't work like that in real life.
Many modern pistols ? Sigs, H&K USP, Berettas - have decockers, levers that safely drop the hammer, generally by moving the firing pin out of the way.
And dual wielding can be done... not in a combat situation, but FN Herstal once released a video of one of their testers firing a P90 in each hand with relative accuracy. Granted, it was to demonstrate the lower recoil impulse of the SS190 cartridge, but still. :-D
And yeah, the constant clatter of gun mechanisms... I mean, do coppers in films not chamber a round until they're aiming at the bad guy?
Basically, they used to useNorma Säk, a fully-jacketed round. In 2003 they switched to Speer Gold Dot ? a far more effective police round, and also one less prone to overpenetration because, as a hollowpoint, it'll mushroom and most likely stay inside the body of whatever it hits.
There was a bit of a furore about it at the time, with even Jan Guillou (who should know better) writing an article about how this was "hunting ammunition designed for maximum damage" and "so cruel that it's forbidden even in war". Add to that the fact that Sweden doesn't acknowledge that self-defence is a justifiable purpose for a gun, and you end up with a sort of folkloric distinction between jacketed rounds (to use against people in war) and hollowpoints (to put down an elk quickly). So yes, they were using correct terminology in the context.
Actually, yes and no. By convention, a .22 cal will almost exclusively refer to a .22 rimfire round ? generally the .22 LR as used in plinking rifles and competition pistols, but also things like the .22 short and the .22 WMR.theloneassassin said:
Assault rifles generally use the .223 (or, near as makes no difference, 5.56mm) cartridge, which is a full-size centre-fire cartridge. But they are never referred to as .22 ? because they aren't.
.003" makes a big difference in ballistics.
Now, I don't remember the scene you're referring to, but some .50 cal rifles certainly are capable of rapid and accurate follow-up shots. See this USMC demonstration of the SASR (Barrett M82), around the 6:39 mark:Hussmann54 said:And the almost reckless abandon with which people use sniper rifles in video games and many movies. For example, Smokin Aces (a movie which I love) in the scene when Georgias partner goes bezerk with a 50 cal. because you know, kick back doesnt affect the trajectory of the next shot at all
Basically, what im saying is you couldnt place that many shots in that small an area with that rapid of succession without having the gun nailed down or something (which im pretty sure didnt happen in the movie, correct me if im wrong though.) you would have to take the time to re-align each shot, which didnt happen.
So the capability's there ? whether the circumstances in the film work in its favour is another matter. ;-)
But you can. With practice one learns to control the recoil, particularly with modern in-line weapons, so short bursts can be if not target accurate, then certainly combat accurate at short ranges. What really annoys me in games is the huge reticle bloom they tend to have ? if I'm walking along while shooting, the bullet's still going to go where I'm aiming, not kick up dust around my feet. It's an attempt at realism that actually makes it less realistic ? much like the jam/wear mechanic in Far Cry 2 or one-shot kills in, well, everything.Shock and Awe said:
"Modern pistols" in this instance meaning "anything after about 1890".theloneassassin said:
Cocking the hammer manually is needed on any revolver or pistol (regardless of vintage) that fires in single-action mode only. With automatics, racking the slide to chamber a round will cock the hammer as part of that mechanism, but it can be decocked for safer carry ? then it needs to be manually cocked to fire. That's why many people who carry 1911s tend to carry them "cocked and locked"; in other words, hammer cocked and safety on.
DA/SA pistols ? like the Sig P220 series, for instance, or Beretta's 92 range, or the vast majority of pistols from the 60s through to about the early 90s ? are loaded and chambered just the same, but can then be decocked so the hammer is dropped safely without impacting the firing pin. They're then drawn and fired in a double-action mode ? where pulling the trigger first cocks the hammer ? and subsequent shots are fired in single-action. The main downside with this is that the first shot has a heavier trigger pull and can tend to go wide.
It's worth noting, by the way, that 20th-century firearms have tended not to really go out of fashion ? new developments come along, but older mechanisms still stick around. The 1911, for instance, is still as popular as ever, the US Army still retain the M9, and so on.
DAO (Double Action Only) pistols don't leave the hammer cocked after firing, and always fire with the heavier trigger pull.
Striker-fired pistols don't have an external hammer ? the Glock pistol is probably the most notable example. More on them later.
If you're carrying a gun for self-defence you will almost certainly carry it with a round chambered. You would also practice your draw to make sure that all the requisite steps can be accomplished as part of it ? on a 1911, for instance, your support-side thumb could sweep down the side to release the safety as you complete your firing grip. (Even chambering a round needn't add more than half a second.) With many DAO or striker-fired pistols, there are no external safeties to worry about ? get a proper shooting grip and it's ready to go.Worgen said:
You're right, though, about the knife ? in general, if someone has a knife within seven metres of you, you won't have time to draw and fire a gun.
Actually, the .223 isn't a variant of the .22 ? there's only a 0.06mm difference in the bore, but the cartridges are two very different beasts. The .223 is a full rifle round, with a necked cartridge and lots more powder. The bullets are roughly the same diameter, but that's where the similarities end.derdeutschmachine said:
Kwaren's right on this (well, mostly ? the Glock does have safeties, but they're all internal and automatic). The Glock "Safe Action" pistols have trigger safeties, so there's a small nub on the trigger that has to be depressed to allow the trigger to move. Many striker-fired pistols use similar systems these days. For an example, here's a video of me firing a Smith & Wesson M&P (which uses a similar trigger safety). At about eight seconds in, I pull the trigger and nothing happens. Now, I hadn't used striker-fired pistols much at this point, so my first instinct was that the gun hadn't gone into battery properly, so I just unloaded, cycled the action and started again.Worgen said:
In retrospect, of course, I'd simply been sloppy with my trigger finger placement. So that's how safe these guns are ? you can even pull the trigger, and they won't go off unless you pull the trigger the right way.
That's miniguns ? chainguns are single-barrel designs, which don't go up to quite the same extremes of firing rate.KingGolem said:
But yeah, miniguns firing with distinguishable shots annoy me ? that's why I was so pleased when I watched Black Hawk Down the first time.
Another related thing: miniguns spooling up in computer games. Real miniguns load and fire based on the rotation of the barrel assembly, and while some have clutches to stop rounds loading after releasing the trigger, they start firing as soon as the barrels start revolving. Always annoys me, particularly in games that should know better.
There have been a number of very quiet guns; the MP5SD series, with its integral suppressor, is very quiet, though the sound of the mechanism can still be heard. Ruger make a .22LR pistol with an integrated suppressor, which is barely audible. Almost any bolt-action rifle with a subsonic round and a decent can will be near-silent.theloneassassin said:
But the daddy of them all has to be the De Lisle carbine, developed during WW2. It fired .45 ACP rounds ? big, heavy, slow rounds ? through an integral suppressor. Almost completely silent, except for the firing pin falling, and on that rifle that's not a loud sound.
Revolvers generally can't be suppressed ? after all, for the cylinder to be able to rotate, there has to be some clearance between the frame and the cylinder, and firing gasses escape through that. I have heard of the suppressed revolver you mention ? some custom job ? but I can't remember anything about it. The key point is that in films, they suppress revolvers all the time, and it simply doesn't work like that in real life.
Actually, nowadays many do. It is a pretty recent thing, and has really only become possible since the development of active ear protection like the Peltor Com-Tac and Sordin ear defenders. Basically they have microphones built in that amplify sound from outside so the soldier can still hear, while still cutting off any high-intensity impulse sounds (like shots). So yes ? nowadays, soldiers do wear ear protection out in the field!theloneassassin said:It may not seem guns are loud in movies and in games but they sure as hell areI also lol when people think soldiers wear ear protection while out on the field.
Some guns are designed to be able to do that, and with others it's developed into a (relatively) safe technique. But in general, one should always assume that if you pull the trigger, the gun's going to go off. "Easing the hammer down" is not something one should habitually do ? particularly as many guns that aren't intended to be decocked don't have provisions for it on the firing pin and hammer. This means that a jolt could theoretically jostle the hammer enough for it to bounce onto the firing pin and fire the round.Lunar Shadow said:
Many modern pistols ? Sigs, H&K USP, Berettas - have decockers, levers that safely drop the hammer, generally by moving the firing pin out of the way.
Actually, pistols can be fired very accurately with one hand ? just look at competitive pistol shooting, where a bladed (=side-on) stance is used. The key thing is that in combat, you've got adrenaline pumping, distractions, and all sorts of other factors to consider; the additional stability given by a two-handed grip counteracts those things.crimsonshrouds said:
And dual wielding can be done... not in a combat situation, but FN Herstal once released a video of one of their testers firing a P90 in each hand with relative accuracy. Granted, it was to demonstrate the lower recoil impulse of the SS190 cartridge, but still. :-D
It's an old cliché, though. Some scabbards have actually historically had a small piece of metal built into the opening to scrape along the back of the blade and create that sound. But they were explicitly for psychological effect, and certainly not the norm.demoman_chaos said:
And yeah, the constant clatter of gun mechanisms... I mean, do coppers in films not chamber a round until they're aiming at the bad guy?
That's the Salander books, rather than Frank Black, right? I can imagine that sticking out to a non-Swedish shooter, but in context it makes rather more sense. (For given values of "sense".)WolfThomas said:
Basically, they used to useNorma Säk, a fully-jacketed round. In 2003 they switched to Speer Gold Dot ? a far more effective police round, and also one less prone to overpenetration because, as a hollowpoint, it'll mushroom and most likely stay inside the body of whatever it hits.
There was a bit of a furore about it at the time, with even Jan Guillou (who should know better) writing an article about how this was "hunting ammunition designed for maximum damage" and "so cruel that it's forbidden even in war". Add to that the fact that Sweden doesn't acknowledge that self-defence is a justifiable purpose for a gun, and you end up with a sort of folkloric distinction between jacketed rounds (to use against people in war) and hollowpoints (to put down an elk quickly). So yes, they were using correct terminology in the context.
Just remembered, one thing that annoys me is when people argue the whole AK-47 vs. M16 thing... and their justification comes from having played CounterStrike (Source).
I don't know whether to shout at them, or go "d'awwwwwwwwwwww".
I don't know whether to shout at them, or go "d'awwwwwwwwwwww".
Yeah Salandar, yeah thanks that makes a bit more sense to an Australian now. Still you'd think a police officer would use the real term rather than the sensationalist term, but I guess the author chose it because it resounded more with the Swedish public.awmperry said:
To the credit of movies, at least an overturned table or whatever is better than nothing. Anything a bullet has to pass through will slow it down. The less momentum the bullet has the less damage it could potentially do to you.
What that means in practical terms, I don't know, but I'd take the cover vs no cover at any rate. At least then it'd make it harder to aim at me.
Edit: Oh, to answer the actual question, I hate it when the default animation when drawing your weapon is to cock it no matter what -- You just fired two shots and put your weapon away? Cock it again. You put away your pistol for a knife and got it out again? Time to cock it.
Why? And how are the bullets jumping into my clip -- I sure didn't see my character change clips or load bullets into them. I JUST PICKED UP THAT WEAPON GAAAH.
Ok now I'm being silly, it wouldn't be fun if FPSes were totally realistic. It'd probably come down to fist fights after a few minutes of playing.
What that means in practical terms, I don't know, but I'd take the cover vs no cover at any rate. At least then it'd make it harder to aim at me.
Edit: Oh, to answer the actual question, I hate it when the default animation when drawing your weapon is to cock it no matter what -- You just fired two shots and put your weapon away? Cock it again. You put away your pistol for a knife and got it out again? Time to cock it.
Why? And how are the bullets jumping into my clip -- I sure didn't see my character change clips or load bullets into them. I JUST PICKED UP THAT WEAPON GAAAH.
Ok now I'm being silly, it wouldn't be fun if FPSes were totally realistic. It'd probably come down to fist fights after a few minutes of playing.