Halo 4 Ending + Saga Discussion [Spoilers]

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Zealous

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My only gripe with the story would have to be the lack of any real character development in the secondary characters (They even set up Lasky in Forward unto Dawn and then just have him fade into the background after the mission he's introduced in. Maybe we'll get to see some more development of him and Palmer in Spartan Ops?).

That and the fact that the major antagonist's motives essentially boiled down to xenophobia and the usual lust for control and power. I expected so much more from the Didact and was seriously disappointed.

m19 said:
So anyone thinks Cortana will stay dead?

I like that they are trying to explore MC's character finally and give it some development.
I hope so. If she stays dead, then that's some serious character development for MC that we haven't had at any time during the franchise up till this point. To take that away by reanimating her in some cheap way (I'm looking at you Composer) would just ruin the effect.
 

The Ubermensch

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erttheking said:
Sargent Hoofbeat said:
erttheking said:
Sargent Hoofbeat said:
Oh yeah... And doesn't the Composer basically do what the Prophets thought the Halo rings did?

Doesn't that mean that the Prophets were right (kinda), you know, aside from the whole "murder humaity" thing?
Eh...sorta. They thought the Halos made them into gods. The Composer turns people into...basically the Husks from Mass Effect.
Yes, but its intention was to preserve their personalities as data, intact and with presumibly unlimited access to their info nets (IDK what you'd call it really, like the internet but at a T3/T4 level rather than at T1 [Kardashev Scale]) And that could arguably be God like "power"; instant access to and comprehention of the sum of all collected knowledge. It was only when the data started to decompile that they tried to reform them that it cause the Prometheans

Its intention was similar to the prophecy, though the composer was clearly in it's beta test cycle
Yes, but it didn't work. They were tying to reach godhood, but only sowed destruction in the process...in that way they're a lot like the Prophets.
Yah... so Beta Test Cycle? I mean you could see how if you saw a design brief that these guys had made, and you'd seen their other technology they'd made, you'd assume that they pulled it off.

Hunter85792 said:
My only gripe with the story would have to be the lack of any real character development in the secondary characters (They even set up Lasky in Forward unto Dawn and then just have him fade into the background after the mission he's introduced in. Maybe we'll get to see some more development of him and Palmer in Spartan Ops?).

That and the fact that the major antagonist's motives essentially boiled down to xenophobia and the usual lust for control and power. I expected so much more from the Didact and was seriously disappointed.
So much this, though the main intention was to develop John 117. I think they realised this and thats why they made "Forward Unto Dawn"
 

Brendan Stepladder

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I'm only annoyed that the game only mentions that the Storm Covenant are rogue in one cutscene in Waypoint. A vast majority of players will now not understand a major plot point that could have been explained in two sentences in the main campaign.
 

Zealous

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Sargent Hoofbeat said:
So much this, though the main intention was to develop John 117. I think they realised this and thats why they made "Forward Unto Dawn"
Agreed. They were obviously trying to make a personal story revolving around Chief and Cortana and they succeed. I just wish they didn't sacrifice everyone else to make it happen.
 

skywolfblue

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erttheking said:
skywolfblue said:
I agree she's probably not going to stay dead. Either Halsy does some tinkering and mixes some cortana remnants from orbit with a new cortana clone to make a fresh AI with all the old memories, or they straight up find a backup copy somewhere (Requiem, Ring 3, or the remains of diadect's ship).


I felt the Quick Time Events were kinda out of place. They weren't "bad", they made sense, but it didn't feel very "Halo-y". I wonder why they didn't just make it a cinematic instead.

But 'dat trench run Star Wars style, that was awesome!

Scipio1770 said:
With that said, I really hope they don't turn her relationship with Chief into a love interest. One of the biggest reasons for why the Cortana-Master Chief duo was so succesful in my opinion was because Bungie took great care in avoiding the classic love arc tropes that would have ruined the maturity of the series; so it worries me to see 343 go switch into such a different direction right off the bat.
I think the already crossed the "love interest" line at the end of Halo 4. That was waaaay too intimate for friends.

Not related to the ending but:

Why doesn't the Infinity have an AI of it's own?

- I thought most UNSC cruisers and above carried their own AIs. Wouldn't a ship as big and important as the Infinity need one all the more? It would have been interesting to see Cortana have a short verbal sparring match or cooperation with another AI, I'm kinda sad they missed that chance.

Also, why doesn't the Infinity have a fleet of smaller ships with it?

- I guess "Plot" but putting all your naval eggs into one basket just begs for it's weaknesses to be exploited.
Well it went out to rescue a stranded starship, not fight a renegade covenant faction. They probably thought that it had enough firepower to take out a couple of ships if they ran into them (Which it did) but they weren't expecting to find a whole fleet. In Spartan Ops however, they were expecting an enemy fleet, and brought one themselves.
<youtube=fYAvI7cbRDc> check 4:50 onward.

Same thing with the A.I. probably, wasn't properly equipped for something so serious.

On a side note, I like how they don't flat out say that, they only imply and even then only kinda. She mentions earlier that she would never feel the warmth of a sun, and if you wanted to view it in a non-romantic sense, she was finally able to actually feel something solid. And hey, she touched his chest, which had a couple of inches of thick metal on it, it's not like she grabbed his balls. Besides, when you go through as much crap as those two have together, you form a special bond.
Interesting... When me and my brother played the Spartan Ops I guess we skipped passed the video or something because I completely missed that. Good to know!
 

ultrachicken

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I'm guessing Cortana will still be important, though in precisely what form I don't know. Hopefully she'll stay dead, so that the ending doesn't become meaningless. If I were in 343's shoes, I would have Chief get paired up with another AI that's vastly different from Cortana. The duo's arc would then revolve around the Chief getting over resentment towards Cortana's replacement.
 

Ishal

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So which didact was this? Is this to be the Bornstellar DIdact or the Ur-Didact? I know the Ur-didact gave bornstellar the brevit mutation but still (for those that read greg bears novels) did it seem like the bornstellar didact had that much hate for humanity?

The precursors will be back. I have a theory about them and the primordial/captive that explains what the enemies in Halo 5 and 6 might be.

Also, we all know the flood will be back. It is inevitable. You know what else will be cool? There seems to be lots more spartans walking around...which means they'll prob get infected so we'll be fighting flood-ified spartans!

As for Cortana, I believe she exists in the Domain now. Which still probably exists. So she'll be back as well.

The one jaw dropping moment was them showing the librarian, but the way they lead up to it was masterful. The first time i saw sentinals I was very very apprehensive... I didn't shoot them though. Then when I saw the way they were moving and heard the music that was playing when they were flying around leading you places...I was like.."the librarian" and i got the widest grin on my face. Yeah this was a great game for sure.
 

Extra-Ordinary

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In my opinion, I thought the ending was really moving. Cortana was facing rampancy but of course you think "okay, there's going to be some magic mcguffin to stop this at the end, right?"
Nope. Despite all your strength, all you are capable of, you can't save her from herself.
It's kind of ironic, it's a twist in itself when (one of) the over-arcing dangers actually sees itself through, you know?
Anyway. I'm with you this looks like it's going to turn into a man-vs-machine story. Who does John think he is, who is he really, who does he want to be, etc.
As for Cortana, I want her back but I don't want to see it happen. I want to miss her.
I thought maybe he gets paired up with a different Cortana but this new one doesn't share the same past and experience. I think it would be an interesting character dynamic for John, to see him trying to connect with *a* Cortana while still trying to realize and accept that it's not *the* Cortana.
Or better yet:

ultrachicken said:
I'm guessing Cortana will still be important, though in precisely what form I don't know. Hopefully she'll stay dead, so that the ending doesn't become meaningless. If I were in 343's shoes, I would have Chief get paired up with another AI that's vastly different from Cortana. The duo's arc would then revolve around the Chief getting over resentment towards Cortana's replacement.
I could get into that.
 

wolf thing

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the story was so bad in this game. first how did cortana and chief know what the didact was they have been asleep for four years, they dont even ask questions or discuss it. the didact its self was a really stupiid character and did fuck all as far as plot is conser you would have replace him with and other alien in the halo game it would not have changed a thing. the librarian was shit alwell adding fuck all to the story and further showing how bad the game is writter, "oww look a forrunner chief you wanna ask it questions... a no not even goping to bring it up okay fine." making mankind a space faring spielcer was shit as well because it is impossible lie because we would fucking know about it. the spartan 4 were shit as well, in game they act just like marines, and story wise chief and cortana barely acknowledge there even there. and the main plot of the game, cortana going crazy is pushed ot the side for the tipical sci fi plot, the ending was poorly done because chief went through no changes by the death of the reind, hes was as withdrawn and dull as ever

the games story was just so badly done, i dread what 343 do next to the franchise
 

Zealous

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Ishal said:
So which didact was this? Is this to be the Bornstellar DIdact or the Ur-Didact? I know the Ur-didact gave bornstellar the brevit mutation but still (for those that read greg bears novels) did it seem like the bornstellar didact had that much hate for humanity?
This really bugged me too. I'm assuming the Didact in Halo 4 is Bornstellar. I haven't read Primordium, but from what I read in Cryptum, his two identities were "fighting" with each other for a while and at the end of the novel the Didact persona took over completely. I just assumed that over time Bornstellar and Didact would merge completely (mentally, I mean) but I guess the Didact just took over. It's a shame they didn't go down that road because a schizophrenic antagonist with multiple personalities is always fun. Oh well.

The precursors will be back. I have a theory about them and the primordial/captive that explains what the enemies in Halo 5 and 6 might be.
Yeah, read Primordium. It reveals the identity of the prisoner at Charum Hakkor, although it's probably not what you think it is (Greg pulled a red herring on us) and ties in with the Halo 3 era canon very nicely.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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torno said:
In my opinion, I thought the ending was really moving. Cortana was facing rampancy but of course you think "okay, there's going to be some magic mcguffin to stop this at the end, right?"
Nope. Despite all your strength, all you are capable of, you can't save her from herself.
It's kind of ironic, it's a twist in itself when (one of) the over-arcing dangers actually sees itself through, you know?
Anyway. I'm with you this looks like it's going to turn into a man-vs-machine story. Who does John think he is, who is he really, who does he want to be, etc.
As for Cortana, I want her back but I don't want to see it happen. I want to miss her.
I thought maybe he gets paired up with a different Cortana but this new one doesn't share the same past and experience. I think it would be an interesting character dynamic for John, to see him trying to connect with *a* Cortana while still trying to realize and accept that it's not *the* Cortana.
Or better yet:

ultrachicken said:
I'm guessing Cortana will still be important, though in precisely what form I don't know. Hopefully she'll stay dead, so that the ending doesn't become meaningless. If I were in 343's shoes, I would have Chief get paired up with another AI that's vastly different from Cortana. The duo's arc would then revolve around the Chief getting over resentment towards Cortana's replacement.
I could get into that.
Y'know, I was thinking last night, what if in this new trilogy the Chief becomes so conflicted and strained mentally, that he starts to develop a split personality of his own, and that his more 'human' side is represented by hallucinations of Cortana? That way, the entity of Cortana is still dead, so the story doesn't have to hurt itself by finding some bullshit loophole in order to bring her back, but Cortana as a character still survives as part of the Chief.
 

Spartan16

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Scipio1770 said:
Alright so my friends and I finished the campaign yesterday and were left a bit confused on a few points:

3. Since the composer can switch data between digital and biological, and Cortana dropped the rather obvious hint that her mind was a copy of Dr. Halsey's neural tissues, We can predict that over the course of this new halo saga, cortana will go thorugh rampancy into metastability and then probably be converted into a human. With that said, I really hope they don't turn her relationship with Chief into a love interest. One of the biggest reasons for why the Cortana-Master Chief duo was so succesful in my opinion was because Bungie took great care in avoiding the classic love arc tropes that would have ruined the maturity of the series; so it worries me to see 343 go switch into such a different direction right off the bat.

4. For those of you who didn't finish it on Legendary, you actually see the upper half of Cheif's face in the end of the epilogue cutscene. I think that was a mistake. I realize they're trying to play this new 'Man or Machine' theme for the new saga, but it's still too early into the story for John's face to get kind of effect they're looking for. Unlike samus aran, there really isn't a shock value to seeing John's face: We already know his age, gender, race etc. Sure, you make him seem more human, but you also take away a huge mystery factor from his persona, so I think that move was net negative.

So what do you guys think?
On point 3, whilst playing through the campaign as soon I encountered the Librarian (which I thought was an excellent part of the story and I loved the inclusion and encounter) and she showed Master Chief the Didact?s plans and what the Composer planned/was trying to do I thought straight away that that process will be used to change Cortana human (which she largely is, despite her actual form)."

Personally I have no problem at all if 343i want to make Master Chief and Cortana's relationship that of a love arc. They have already taken the steps along that path. They did state that they were going to explore the depth and flesh out Master Chief and Cortana's personality?s in the Reclamer trilogy. Whilst many have made the case that Master Chief and Cortana are best friends or something similar, that is clearly not the case. Master Chief disobeys direct orders from a superior for the first time ever in 30+ years of being a Spartan for her, something that Dr. Halsay and the novels touch in by using the word "indoctrination" and they mean it. Doing that is massive for John. The emotion he displays in his in his voice and the expressions you know he is making under his helmet during his 'final moments' with Cortana go well beyond friendship and onto something else completely. it is also clear that she loves him too. I found their 'final moments' together very touching and expertly done, in scripting and execution/acting. Particularly the moments in which she touches his chest, you can see a real longing, desire and despair there all at the same time. Alongside the John: ?I was my job to take care of you", Cortana:"We were supposed to take care of each other" even John's "Cortana, please...." with her touching him one last time. I thought it was done and handled excellently. If it was done in a Mass Effect romance way, it would not fit the characters or themes, but IMO 343 nailed it.

I also can?t see it being the end of Cortana. She is vital to the balance of the story and without her, Master Chief as a character would suffer. I don?t buy what some say about taking Cortana out of the story allows Master Chief character development. I believe the grow and develop together. I would think that the early part of the game will be Chiefs struggle without her the she will be reintroduced. Maybe the Librarian will be involved, She did take Cortatna after all. She won?t be gone for long, it is a trilogy after all. and I really hope to see her back in Halo5. Plus Chief having a personal stake in the story, like Cortana's like made the story feel more real and resonate more with the characters and with me, as a pose to a whole unnamed race needs saving it was Cortana, which I loved and would like to see continued for the most part.


Point 4. As far as seeing part of Master Chiefs face during the Legendary ending, I thought it was great. It followed all the themes of the game and led on nicely form the Man/Machine theme that has/will be so central. We already knew how old he was his race, gender, ethnicity, hair colour etc. 343 handled it very tastefully and did a fantastic job with it.



I must admit though, I was disappointed with the level of inclusion that Lasky and Palmer had among others, but those most. They may feature more in Spartan Ops though. I hope they do at least. they are great characters that I would have liked in the game more, and Majestic squad felt more like marines than Spartans, which I did not like. Though I suppose that?s is what they are, they were marines before Spartans unlike S-II's and S-III's that were trained from the bottom up. Still did not like that they did not feel like Spartans.

I WAS HOPING for something more story based with the Legendary ending, like in pervious Halo games. that is all that kind of confused me with the Halo 4. It felt more like an end that Halo 3, that could have very easily and plausibly be the end of the whole story, where does the trilogy go next? Who will be the next enemy, Will the Covenant Civil war play a role, Will we see the arbiter again, will Dr. Halsey become more involved, What did the Librarian do to Master Chief, will that play a role in his future battles or with Cortana, or is she truly dead? Very excited to see what 343i does next with Halo 5.

Instant Classic though.
 

II Scarecrow II

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I was more interested as to find out how the hell Halsey made an appearance at the start... Unless it has come up in one of the new books like Glasslands or the Forerunner Trilogy, I was under the impression she was still trapped inside Onyx?? AFAIK it shouldn't be a "10 years earlier" thing either, because Halsey knows Chief is MIA, and the conversation with the interrogator leads me to believe it was during the commencement of the Spartan IV program.

And I had so much trouble finding out how MC survived the nuke, and it was really pissing me off. I'm glad people have come to a conclusion, but it irks me that it wasn't very well explained. I think that goes for a lot of things in Halo 4: it really embraced the expanded universe, and I got a lot of the nice little references and meanings, but I think for the uninitiated it might have left them really confused. A couple of lines of dialogue here and there to explain what is going on would have made a huge difference, particularly regarding the Forerunners and the Didact.

I really like the direction the story took in terms of MC and Cortana, but the plot development around the Didact and Librarian felt lacking and insignificant. But I only have one major gripe worth talking about.


THE GAME WAS TOO DAMN SHORT!!! A game that can be run through on Heroic in four-five hours is almost pathetic, especially for a universe as rich and compelling as Halo. It just seems like such a wasted opportunity for 343 to establish themselves as master story tellers and the new caretakers of the Halo universe, and instead have focused on balancing and tweaking the multiplayer.

Actually, in regards to the overall game, it seems that 343i have actually subtracted more little bits and pieces than what they have added, but that might just be my perception.
 

Korten12

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Hunter85792 said:
[
This really bugged me too. I'm assuming the Didact in Halo 4 is Bornstellar. I haven't read Primordium, but from what I read in Cryptum, his two identities were "fighting" with each other for a while and at the end of the novel the Didact persona took over completely. I just assumed that over time Bornstellar and Didact would merge completely (mentally, I mean) but I guess the Didact just took over. It's a shame they didn't go down that road because a schizophrenic antagonist with multiple personalities is always fun. Oh well.
Ishal said:
So which didact was this? Is this to be the Bornstellar DIdact or the Ur-Didact? I know the Ur-didact gave bornstellar the brevit mutation but still (for those that read greg bears novels) did it seem like the bornstellar didact had that much hate for humanity?
100% sure it's the Ur-Didact if you watch the terminals. Since when Bornstellar became the Didact he still had no hate towards Humans. We find out why we truly began to go into madness in Halo Silentium next year which reveals the true origins of the Flood and what happened to the Ur-Didact once the Master Builder had him.

This though is based on the Halo: Silentium description from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Halo-Silentium-Forerunner-Greg-Bear/dp/0765323982/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352477271&sr=8-1&keywords=Halo+Silentium
 

fix-the-spade

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Scipio1770 said:
1. What exactly happened to make the Covenant and Humans at war again? 4 years isn't that long, I doubt that the entire prophet and brute races were wiped out that fast. Especially considering the fact that the Arbiter would still be alive at that point and would obviously be against war with the Humans.

So what do you guys think?
IIRC the Covenant troops you face are a splinter faction rather than Arby and Half Jaw's lot. It seems unlikely that those two would want to bring a fight back towards the human race.
In-Universe the Prophets were said to reside entirely on High Charity, which means they were likely rendered extinct when the Flood arrived on board.
 

Ishal

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[/quote]
Yeah, read Primordium. It reveals the identity of the prisoner at Charum Hakkor, although it's probably not what you think it is (Greg pulled a red herring on us) and ties in with the Halo 3 era canon very nicely.[/quote]

My theory on the prisoner goes along with the cannon that the Didact calls it a gravemind and that it convinced Mendicant Bias to serve it over the course of 43 yrs.

From what we know about the precursors they were an advanced race that reached tier 0 technology level and basically were transentient beings. Firstly, I'd like to point out the massive unlikelihood that the forerunners wiped them out in the forerunner-precursor war. As the captive said, "those that made you were hunted and destroyed, but some fled beyond your reach, creation continued". It is likely that the some precursors now either exist in another galaxy via their unbending filament technology or exist on another plain of existence entirely (another dimension). Which brings me to what the primordial said before the Didact killed it.

"We ARE the flood, there is no difference"

The Didact then says he thinks its a gravemind and that it is the last of its kind, it then replies..

"The last of THIS kind"

Finally, in its last words it says the most important thing (imo)

"It is your task to kill this servant, that another may be freed"

Now, that first statement about there being no difference between flood and precursor is bit nebulous if you ask me. Does it mean that the precursors' final act of ascendancy was to become 1 compound intelligence ie. The Flood? Or does it mean that the flood are the precursors' legacy..and since they are all gone..they (are) precursors. I don't know, but we will find out in Silentium.

The Statement "the last of this kind" is very revealing, and we can speculate a lot from this. In this statement the captive admits that whatever it is, there are no more, implying uniqueness of a sort. Now, we can observe its activities and speculate on its intent.

It then says "It is your task to kill this servant, that another may be freed" This is perhaps the most telling statement of them all. From the previous statement it says it is unique and the last of its kind, then it calls itself a servant and that another will be released upon its death. My theory is that this being ( and others like it, if they exist ) are caretakers of the flood super-cell or parasite.

If you examine the actions of the captive, it does not seek to infect every forerunner and human, nor does it attempt to start a war again with the forerunners. It is described to be very much like a scientist searching for answers. In the palace of pain it performed experiments infecting some humans and some forerunners, basically testing the current virulence of the flood parasite. Whatever the primodial actually is is unknown. But I'm guessing it is a type of flood of a higher order of intelligence and complexity (perhaps on the same level as a gravemind) whose sole purpose is to take care of the flood and make sure it is working correctly. As stated in Primordium, the humans found a way to stop the flood and almost made it destroy itself and it had to flee the galaxy. If the flood really is the great master plan by the precursors to either get revenge on the forerunners, or to test who will inherit the mantle next, it logically follows that if some unforeseen circumstance happens (ie the humans stopping the flood via counter-infection) then something would have to intervene to keep things moving along as planned. The captive refers to itself as merely a servant and never once acted out in violence or anger toward the Didact. To me this implies success in whatever endeavors it was pursuing with the aid of Mendicant Bias, so it did not matter that it would perish to the Didact.

Whether it is a precursor or the precursors exist somewhere else and are controlling it I don't know. But I am sure that much will be revealed in Silentium and I can't wait to find out the origin of the flood.
 

cojo965

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I was pissed when everything got sorted out in a quick time event rather than let the player sort out the Didact in a fight. Halo 3 had a harder final boss than that, thing, really that's pretty fucked. What's more if you didn't already know about Storm you would swear that we are up against just the Covanent again. Yes the game does assume you have read the recent expanded novels and accepted what happened in them. And where is the Arbiter, I was hoping he would show up.
 

Zealous

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Korten12 said:
Hunter85792 said:
This really bugged me too. I'm assuming the Didact in Halo 4 is Bornstellar. I haven't read Primordium, but from what I read in Cryptum, his two identities were "fighting" with each other for a while and at the end of the novel the Didact persona took over completely. I just assumed that over time Bornstellar and Didact would merge completely (mentally, I mean) but I guess the Didact just took over. It's a shame they didn't go down that road because a schizophrenic antagonist with multiple personalities is always fun. Oh well.
Ishal said:
So which didact was this? Is this to be the Bornstellar DIdact or the Ur-Didact? I know the Ur-didact gave bornstellar the brevit mutation but still (for those that read greg bears novels) did it seem like the bornstellar didact had that much hate for humanity?
100% sure it's the Ur-Didact if you watch the terminals. Since when Bornstellar became the Didact he still had no hate towards Humans. We find out why we truly began to go into madness in Halo Silentium next year which reveals the true origins of the Flood and what happened to the Ur-Didact once the Master Builder had him.

This though is based on the Halo: Silentium description from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Halo-Silentium-Forerunner-Greg-Bear/dp/0765323982/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352477271&sr=8-1&keywords=Halo+Silentium
That makes so much more sense. I was wondering why he looked the same in the terminals as he did in the actual game if one of them was the Ur-Didact and the other was the Bornstellar Didact.
 

BillCosby

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The game was done very well. The only thing I would really change about are the little nagging holes that the plot didn't really fill in and we had to infer ourselves, (like the storm covenant, how MC survived a nuke) and the killing of Cortana, it was entirely redundant. In the future games Cortana is definitely going to be brought back somehow, she's just too critical to MC as a character and she really builds the plot of the games up in a unique way. They'll most likely handle it in a way similar to Halo 3 where MC has the flashes of Cortana in her rampancy and you have to undertake some seemingly impossible task in order to get to her. I'm pretty excited for Halo 5, I want to see if the Arbiter plays any type of role, if I were 343i I would definitely have the Arbiter come back with a whole Army of Elites to crush the Storm Covenant. Idk overall 343i did a very good job, there's just a couple of things they should have done better.