Halo 4 Sexism Earns You a Lifetime Ban

[Schadrach]

Given that infinity ward is a studio that employs predominatantly or even solely men, it's lower down or entirely off IW's radar, plus the culture there is fucking toxic towards women, I know, I got a co-op job there for a semester.

I'm actually interested. How is the culture there "fucking toxic towards women"? Depending on who's talking and where they're talking about, I've heard that phrase and similar describe anything from "doesn't take special care to accommodate women" to "actively discriminates" to "actively treats women like property."

To everyone saying "just use mute".

... Do you not understand that one of the main appeals of a thriving online multiplayer community is being a part of the community? Do you realize what you're saying? "If the community abuses and excludes you, then don't be a part of it" is the same thing as saying that games are a boy's club and anyone not straight/white/male need not apply.

Come on now. This is victim blaming 101.

So, it's victim blaming and excludes you from the community to say "If this person is being an asshole, bar them from interacting with you"? How exactly does that exclude you from the community, or does XBL not have that feature that PSN and every MMO ever made has where you can permanently shut off communications with specific people who you do not wish to speak with or hear from again?

It seems like that feature would make it difficult to harass someone, simply because they can turn you off and then you're just shouting at the void. Bonus points if it doesn't tell the person being ignored that they're being ignored.

These people are breaking the rules, I don't see why them getting punished for it is a bad thing.

Zero tolerance policies are almost always a bad thing. Zero tolerance policies that cannot be contested always are. They lack any kind of nuance by definition. This is literally effectively a "my rights end where your feelings begin, punishable as severely as is possible within this domain" policy.

This kind of thread again?
This could have been made much better and much much less rage inducing by saying they will ban ALL abusive comments. But women's problems get special preference, as always and the related thread turns into a flame war as always.

If you read the fine print, it actually does say that, they're just drawing extra-special attention to women in the interview.

Forget solving them, we can't even talk about problems only men face. The words Male Rights Activist has become an insult on Escapist.

Sure you can, so long as you accept the argument from primal misogyny -- that men's problems are really women's problems. So quit trying to make it about men, because we're talking about women here. This same argument has been used in the past to try to keep people from talking about gay rights (gay men are only discriminated against because they are seen as woman-like, therefore homophobia is really about misogyny, so quit trying to make it about men, we're talking about women here).

I have never seen female dominated mediums making concessions for men, I have never seen them criticizing women. Men do both and we are still evil?
Can someone just post some good things about men so I don't feel my gender is being targeted as evil?
I have resorted to not talking to women at all(except for work-related stuff) to make sure they know I am not harassing them, that I am not one of those kind of people.

There's a lot to say about women's space, men's space, and male and female dominant spaces and the expectations placed on them, but yeah, to put it in the most basic terms, women's and female dominant spaces are fine, men's spaces need to be destroyed, and male dominant spaces need to be forced to change to explicitly accomodate women and make them more comfortable seems to be the general social consensus.

To give an example, if someone were to plan a LAN party for the launch of some FPS open to whoever would like to RSVP, no women permitted, there would be an uproar about what evil sexist monsters they are for not wanting to be inclusive of women. Want to plan a women-only pre-party for a con? That's awesome! You go girl!

Women seem to have gotten into the habit of forcing things to change for them instead of adapting these days.

This would be one of those things to say about male-dominant and female-dominant spaces -- men in a female-dominant space are expected to conform to the space, whilst women in a male-dominant space expect the space to conform to them.

People are offended by 343i taking away the right of pricks to be dicks? I'm baffled.

I don't like sexism either, but I hate the idea of banning people for being dicks.

this is not about the problem you see with society (as in I cant be a prick anymore! PC police dammit!)

I mean some of the people on there are just dicks!

It all comes down the simply this ONE thing: "Don't be a dick"
...
If you're a total douche who has no social life and enjoys demeaning people you've never met, you're just a prick. (BANNED)

To the five of you above: If the Escapist followed the kind of policy described in the article, and assuming it wasn't itself only enforced in a sexist fashion, that comment right there should have you permabanned on the spot, since you used terms for male genitals as a pejorative, no different than using the terms "****", "twat", or "pussy" to describe some person or group in a negative light.

Since you approve of the kind of policy described, I assume you will hold yourselves to it and request a self ban from the moderators, right?

 

[nacatak]

Guarantee this only applies to sexism towards women.

This is what I figure too.

they will only look after the womenfolk because it is the hot button topic this quarter.

Lets see if they will start permabanning for things like "******, cocksucker, ******, spic, jewlord, towelhead" ect ect

Until they apply their censors uniformly to protect everyone, not just one demographic because of a hotbutton PC agenda, they can fuck right off.

So what? Sexism, ISN'T a problem in video games and shouldn't be addressed?

What do you call "banning for sexism" when it is only one genders sexism that gets banned.

I'll give you a hint: It starts with "S", and ends with "exism".

The fact that you cannot see the total hypocrisy in saying "we care about sexism against women" is pretty telling of how capable you are of critical thought. Even if we say that 99% of all sexism is towards women... it's a completely irrelevant fact. Either sexism is wrong, and it should be banned, or it isn't wrong and no one does anything. Caring about sexism because of the "poor helpless females" is not only sexist towards men, but it makes women look weak because they apparently require special treatment. All this is, is a result of some feminist crazy who somehow is running this company.

I'm also interested in why sexism is apparently more important than racism, or discrimination based on sexual orientation (does this have an "ism" to call it?).

 

[Erttheking]

Guarantee this only applies to sexism towards women.

This is what I figure too.

they will only look after the womenfolk because it is the hot button topic this quarter.

Lets see if they will start permabanning for things like "******, cocksucker, ******, spic, jewlord, towelhead" ect ect

Until they apply their censors uniformly to protect everyone, not just one demographic because of a hotbutton PC agenda, they can fuck right off.

So what? Sexism, ISN'T a problem in video games and shouldn't be addressed?

What do you call "banning for sexism" when it is only one genders sexism that gets banned.

I'll give you a hint: It starts with "S", and ends with "exism".

The fact that you cannot see the total hypocrisy in saying "we care about sexism against women" is pretty telling of how capable you are of critical thought. Even if we say that 99% of all sexism is towards women... it's a completely irrelevant fact. Either sexism is wrong, and it should be banned, or it isn't wrong and no one does anything. Caring about sexism because of the "poor helpless females" is not only sexist towards men, but it makes women look weak because they apparently require special treatment. All this is, is a result of some feminist crazy who somehow is running this company.

I'm also interested in why sexism is apparently more important than racism, or discrimination based on sexual orientation (does this have an "ism" to call it?).

This really confuses me. Sexism exists against men, so we shouldn't take care of sexism against women? Is that what you're trying to say?

 

[Devil_Worshipper]

Really can't say where any of this silliness will lead, but this is just another reason not to buy the game. For better or worse, people should be able to say whatever they like. Especially in an artificial environment.

I don't understand how the fact that a place is digital that makes derogatory comments any less "Real". Hell, if anything it's worse since it's happening to you in the supposed comfort of your own home.

And no. Hateful people should not be allowed to say hateful things. Words hurt.

Life is pain as they say. Adapt or die.

I'd rather make the sexist, racist and homophobic assholes adapt thank you very much. And you too for that matter.

Captcha: just dance. I hate that game.

Touched a nerve? Good luck with your changing human behavior goals in 2012!

 

[nacatak]

Forget solving them, we can't even talk about problems only men face. The words Male Rights Activist has become an insult on Escapist.

Sure you can, so long as you accept the argument from primal misogyny -- that men's problems are really women's problems. So quit trying to make it about men, because we're talking about women here. This same argument has been used in the past to try to keep people from talking about gay rights (gay men are only discriminated against because they are seen as woman-like, therefore homophobia is really about misogyny, so quit trying to make it about men, we're talking about women here).

I have never seen female dominated mediums making concessions for men, I have never seen them criticizing women. Men do both and we are still evil?
Can someone just post some good things about men so I don't feel my gender is being targeted as evil?
I have resorted to not talking to women at all(except for work-related stuff) to make sure they know I am not harassing them, that I am not one of those kind of people.

There's a lot to say about women's space, men's space, and male and female dominant spaces and the expectations placed on them, but yeah, to put it in the most basic terms, women's and female dominant spaces are fine, men's spaces need to be destroyed, and male dominant spaces need to be forced to change to explicitly accomodate women and make them more comfortable seems to be the general social consensus.

To give an example, if someone were to plan a LAN party for the launch of some FPS open to whoever would like to RSVP, no women permitted, there would be an uproar about what evil sexist monsters they are for not wanting to be inclusive of women. Want to plan a women-only pre-party for a con? That's awesome! You go girl!

Women seem to have gotten into the habit of forcing things to change for them instead of adapting these days.

This would be one of those things to say about male-dominant and female-dominant spaces -- men in a female-dominant space are expected to conform to the space, whilst women in a male-dominant space expect the space to conform to them.

People are offended by 343i taking away the right of pricks to be dicks? I'm baffled.

I don't like sexism either, but I hate the idea of banning people for being dicks.

this is not about the problem you see with society (as in I cant be a prick anymore! PC police dammit!)

I mean some of the people on there are just dicks!

It all comes down the simply this ONE thing: "Don't be a dick"
...
If you're a total douche who has no social life and enjoys demeaning people you've never met, you're just a prick. (BANNED)

To the five of you above: If the Escapist followed the kind of policy described in the article, and assuming it wasn't itself only enforced in a sexist fashion, that comment right there should have you permabanned on the spot, since you used terms for male genitals as a pejorative, no different than using the terms "****", "twat", or "pussy" to describe some person or group in a negative light.

Since you approve of the kind of policy described, I assume you will hold yourselves to it and request a self ban from the moderators, right?

Just to be clear: What are you trying to say when you say "So quit trying to make it about men, because we're talking about women here".

Also, do you agree with the "general consensus" regarding female/male spaces?

 

[In Search of Username]

I don't like sexism either, but I hate the idea of banning people for being dicks.

To the five of you above: If the Escapist followed the kind of policy described in the article, and assuming it wasn't itself only enforced in a sexist fashion, that comment right there should have you permabanned on the spot, since you used terms for male genitals as a pejorative, no different than using the terms "****", "twat", or "pussy" to describe some person or group in a negative light.

Since you approve of the kind of policy described, I assume you will hold yourselves to it and request a self ban from the moderators, right?

Dude my comment is clearly against the kind of policy described. Read more carefully in future. And I wouldn't consider something to be sexist unless it was actually intended to be so, but I see your point, a banning system might not be able to tell the difference.

 

[SeanSeanston]

Again it's only sexist if it's men....

reminds me of something:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA4EPRbWhQ (too lazy to make an embed)

Gnight, be tommorrow.

yeah...because I was about to say ITS OK for those hoards of women on xbox live threataning to cut off guys dicks...
oh wait no it isn't

I say it is alright, because even if they did the guys wouldn't give a shit. No really, I'm 100% serious. We (the guys) would actually laugh. That's exactly what I would do if a woman threatened to chop off my dick over voice chat in a game, I would laugh my ass off at how angry she was getting and would look for ways to get her angrier and yell more stuff for my amusement. When someone loses their temper or says ridiculous shit like that, things become extra-entertaining and worthy enough to record and post on Youtube for laughs. Look up the countless examples

Yeah, like that's just trash talking (I didn't bother looking at the damn thing but from what you've said...) between people playing a game, right?

It may be threatening somebody with a threat based on their gender, but what we're mostly talking about here I ASSUME... would be better described as "harassment". As in... gender-based insults aren't even the problem or not so much, rather the fact that a lot of this harassment is brought on by someone BEING a woman, which is starting something entirely different, right?

I wouldn't want the online gaming community to be beaten down and sanitized so people couldn't go ape**** and say things that maybe they really shouldn't, I mean I think there's got to be a certain point where a community kind of has to police itself at some point and you just deal with the consequences because they can't realistically be policed. For instance: people being rude or just generally inconsiderate in real life. You'd never make it illegal, what would the point be? And it would cause so many problems. You could say that X, Y and Z shouldn't be done but so many things just wouldn't work if they were illegal and being forced isn't the point either.

But surely even the biggest skeptic among us can look at gaming and say... it does have a sexism problem that's surely genuine sexism and not something else being misconstrued.

 

[nacatak]

This really confuses me. Sexism exists against men, so we shouldn't take care of sexism against women? Is that what you're trying to say?

Taking care of ONLY sexism against women IS sexism. It's not that hard to understand and it's not a proper justification. Discrimination just to stop discrimination is the most idiotic thing I've ever read.

We should take care of sexism... ALL sexism. Please explain to me how saying "all sexism is bad" would somehow not include sexism against women.

 

[Erttheking]

snip

I don't really get why everyone is talking about rights. This is politics, we're not decided whether or not to abolish the freedom of speech. We're talking about what is acceptable on an online social network, which needs to have its own set of rules that are not didtacted by written law. Rights have nothing to do with it. Also, there's a difference between using swear words, and using swear words in a sexist and discriminatory manner. They're not discriminatory by default, see that one South Park episode about motorcyclists

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

The fact that they think they can enforce that is adorable

 

[Erttheking]

This really confuses me. Sexism exists against men, so we shouldn't take care of sexism against women? Is that what you're trying to say?

Taking care of ONLY sexism against women IS sexism. It's not that hard to understand and it's not a proper justification. Discrimination just to stop discrimination is the most idiotic thing I've ever read.

We should take care of sexism... ALL sexism. Please explain to me how saying "all sexism is bad" would somehow not include sexism against women.

Well here's the thing, sexism is all bad and sexism is bad against men, but I haven't heard one single instance of sexism against men on XBL. Seriously, try to find one instance of that, it's easier said than done. And even if there are a few pockets of it here and there, sexism against women is a more widespread, more obvious and more in your face problem and needs to be addressed. Really, sexism against men isn't really a problem on XBL.

 

[SeanSeanston]

And about that male/female spaces thing: I guess maybe it's one of those strangely doubly sexist things...

Like where it's sexist against men because they're excluded from the female space, but then it being so important that women are allowed into the male space appears to imply that the female space must be **** anyway, so why would men even want or need to go there? However, the male one is so great, I mean it must be... it's for men.

:/

 

[nacatak]

This really confuses me. Sexism exists against men, so we shouldn't take care of sexism against women? Is that what you're trying to say?

Taking care of ONLY sexism against women IS sexism. It's not that hard to understand and it's not a proper justification. Discrimination just to stop discrimination is the most idiotic thing I've ever read.

We should take care of sexism... ALL sexism. Please explain to me how saying "all sexism is bad" would somehow not include sexism against women.

Well here's the thing, sexism is all bad and sexism is bad against men, but I haven't heard one single instance of sexism against men on XBL. Seriously, try to find one instance of that, it's easier said than done. And even if there are a few pockets of it here and there, sexism against women is a more widespread, more obvious and more in your face problem and needs to be addressed. Really, sexism against men isn't really a problem on XBL.

Ctrl+f this thread for the word "dick" used as an insult. WTF do you think that is? Are you really this oblivious to the double standard?

Call a woman a c*** (not sure of the policy here) and you might as well fucking transform into Hitler.

Call a man a dick and you say "find me one single instance of sexism".

The only difference is that one is socially acceptable and the other isn't. Men just have to deal with it and females get the whole world on their knees to fix it for them... but clearly using a gendered insult is worse then a sexist policy for a community of millions of people.

 

[Erttheking]

This really confuses me. Sexism exists against men, so we shouldn't take care of sexism against women? Is that what you're trying to say?

Taking care of ONLY sexism against women IS sexism. It's not that hard to understand and it's not a proper justification. Discrimination just to stop discrimination is the most idiotic thing I've ever read.

We should take care of sexism... ALL sexism. Please explain to me how saying "all sexism is bad" would somehow not include sexism against women.

Well here's the thing, sexism is all bad and sexism is bad against men, but I haven't heard one single instance of sexism against men on XBL. Seriously, try to find one instance of that, it's easier said than done. And even if there are a few pockets of it here and there, sexism against women is a more widespread, more obvious and more in your face problem and needs to be addressed. Really, sexism against men isn't really a problem on XBL.

Ctrl+f this thread for the word "dick" used as an insult. WTF do you think that is? Are you really this oblivious to the double standard?

Call a woman a c*** (not sure of the policy here) and you might as well fucking transform into Hitler.

Call a man a dick and you say "find me one single instance of sexism".

The only difference is that one is socially acceptable and the other isn't. Men just have to deal with it and females get the whole world on their knees to fix it for them... but clearly using a gendered insult is worse then a sexist policy for a community of millions of people.

It's not the word itself that matters, dick and c*** aren't equal insults because they don't have the same weight behind them. You don't call a man a dick because you're trying to oppress him for being a man, you call a man a dick because you think that he's a jackass. C*** on the other hand, while it can be used like dick, has a tendency to be used against women, insulting them for being women. Dick and c*** aren't even close to being equal. Men aren't being oppressed by being called dicks, because that insult isn't meant to be sexist. Women are being oppressed by being called c*** because it is meant to be sexist.

Also, why is it that sexism against men only gets brought up when people are complaining about sexism against women?

 

[SeanSeanston]

Women are being oppressed by being called c*** because it is meant to be sexist.

Kinda depends though. I suppose c*** is more anti-woman in America I guess.

Also, why is it that sexism against men only gets brought up when people are complaining about sexism against women?

Honestly, I would say mostly because sexism against men is generally considered to be a joke and nobody cares. You have to have the subject of sexism brought up against women for the subject to even stick long enough to have a discussion and not be dismissed out of hand, despite any evidence one might have.

Oh, also another thought: Like it was mentioned before, men don't really care as much. Like that video with the women threatening to cut his dick off or w/e. Granted, as I said, that's probably far more accurately described as a simple extreme threat than sexism, but if it was the other way around it would be 100% sexism for some reason. Well, possibly fair enough reasons in the sense that there's more reason to assume sexism given the state of the online community but... it still stands that they'd hardly be treated equally.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's not the word itself that matters, dick and c*** aren't equal insults because they don't have the same weight behind them. You don't call a man a dick because you're trying to oppress him for being a man, you call a man a dick because you think that he's a jackass. C*** on the other hand, while it can be used like dick, has a tendency to be used against women, insulting them for being women. Dick and c*** aren't even close to being equal. Men aren't being oppressed by being called dicks, because that insult isn't meant to be sexist. Women are being oppressed by being called c*** because it is meant to be sexist.

Also, why is it that sexism against men only gets brought up when people are complaining about sexism against women?

It's also worth noting that "dick," despite being a term for male genitals, is a far more unisex insult than the "equivalent he gave, at least in the US. I'm aware the Brits use it more liberally, but seriously, who cares what the Brits do?

Though now I'm curious as to what the equivalent of "make me a sammich" is.

 

[Zombiefish]

Interested to know how they will handle this. Many 'sexist' comments are made jokingly. My friends often tease me 'oh no wonder you died you're a girl' and its never mean in a derogatory manner, but glad to see something is being done.

So...Don't report them? That's the way the system works.

What if someone else does And females might take it the wrong way and report something which was meant innocently. Lifetime ban seems harsh for a first time offense. Maybe warning then a ban?

 

[Erttheking]

Women are being oppressed by being called c*** because it is meant to be sexist.

Kinda depends though. I suppose c*** is more anti-woman in America I guess.

Also, why is it that sexism against men only gets brought up when people are complaining about sexism against women?

Honestly, I would say mostly because sexism against men is generally considered to be a joke and nobody cares. You have to have the subject of sexism brought up against women for the subject to even stick long enough to have a discussion and not be dismissed out of hand, despite any evidence one might have.

Yeah, over here it kind of is a big anti-woman thing. If someone in a room was to say to a woman "shut up c***" pretty much every last person's eyes would be on him and a few boots would probably be us his ass.

Well it is a problem, but from what I know, sexism against men and abuse against men tends to be more personal than a random person across the internet. There aren't that many rabid straw feminists on the internet and especially XBL, so while I do agree that sexism against men is a real problem, there isn't really much of it on XBL. What I was trying to point out is that sexism against men is usually used in arguments like this to impede making things better for women, which I find kinda wrong.

 

[SeanSeanston]

It's also worth noting that "dick," despite being a term for male genitals, is a far more unisex insult than the "equivalent he gave, at least in the US.

Out of curiousity then, what do you actually use in the US when you want to call a man an extreme insult?

c*** just seems so apt and natural. I can't imagine p**** having the same sting.

Also, referring to an earlier thing about Infinity Ward employing predominantly men... it's not like they have a choice, is it? Women don't go into game development as much and that's just that. Take a look in a Computer Science course and see how many women there are. Probably almost none.

I suppose the men are keeping them away... after all, men are notorious for how little they like being around women as we all know, so it all makes perfect sense ;]

Well it is a problem, but from what I know, sexism against men and abuse against men tends to be more personal than a random person across the internet. There aren't that many rabid straw feminists on the internet and especially XBL, so while I do agree that sexism against men is a real problem, there isn't really much of it on XBL. What I was trying to point out is that sexism against men is usually used in arguments like this to impede making things better for women, which I find kinda wrong.

Oh well yeah not the internet really. I was thinking more generally.

Still, that's what some people are suggesting, that while I guess there's none now... these new rules would probably end up constituting just that.

 

[Erttheking]

It's also worth noting that "dick," despite being a term for male genitals, is a far more unisex insult than the "equivalent he gave, at least in the US.

Out of curiousity then, what do you actually use in the US when you want to call a man an extreme insult?

c*** just seems so apt and natural. I can't imagine p**** having the same sting.

Also, referring to an earlier thing about Infinity Ward employing predominantly men... it's not like they have a choice, is it? Women don't go into game development as much and that's just that. Take a look in a Computer Science course and see how many women there are. Probably almost none.

I suppose the men are keeping them away... after all, men are notorious for how little they like being around women as we all know, so it all makes perfect sense ;]

Ah...uh...eh...we don't really have a word for that to be honest. I guess p**** is what is used, but yeah, it doesn't have the same weight, which is why I'm in favor of this. C*** just has roots in being sexist against women.

Also, it's a kinda "boys only" mentality that makes the whole sexism thing on XBL a problem to begin with. Remember that little incident with women being banned from the Battlefield 3 party?

And to your other point, maybe, but I'd rather deal with the bigger and more glaring problem, and if that does happen, we'll deal with it when we get there. Right now this one is the bigger problem that needs our immediate attention.