Has Bioware been falling in quality?

[Exosus]

ME was shit, ME2 was much, much worse shit; At that point I quit playing their games. Jade Empire is easily in my Best Games Ever list, and KOTOR was incredible too. Really what killed it was the radial conversation bit and the fact that they changed writers - every game they ever made was decent gameplay appended to incredible writing and a great story-telling methodology. They apparently fired everyone who was aware of that fact, however, and started making B5 ripoffs with what I'm prepared to call the worst story-telling method in history.

I don't actually know what happened between JE and ME, but what I do know is that they *play* as if they were made by two entirely different developers, one very, very, very good and one at best slightly below average. I tried really hard to like ME because Bioware is (was) well within my top 3 game devs of all time. I even bought the sequel (with real money and everything) but they just do not make good games anymore. Sometimes grandpa goes senile and starts to wet himself and there's a point where face facts. You love him, but you quit loaning him the car. Bioware is at that point.

 

[Xixikal]

I reckon Bioware is exploring it's own little niche of gaming, which it is currently dominating.
Every game has its good and bad points, but in the end, video games are a tool to earn more money. They want to appeal to the masses, and if the masses are shallow and stupid - the games will be too.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

The only excellent games Bioware has ever created were the baldur's gate games. From there on out, the games have been able to maintain a decent level of quality, up until DA2, which flopped. Kotor isn't the incredible game people say it is. It's an incredibly flawed, but good game, just like the ME series and DAO (and perhaps NWN as well). So no, they're just trying out new things, but the quality has been the same since KotoR.

Its one downfall was the mediocre story. And after DA2, mediocre main stories may become a trend for them.

Kotor's story is fairly mediocre as well, only the way they told it was well done. This has been a trend since 2002. Unfortunately, they're still one of the best developers to go to for this, seeing as Black Isle went bankrupt and Obsidian can't seem to get the hang of good gameplay.

Obsidian was founded by employees from black isle so there have only ever been two sources that create great wrpg stories

ot: Bioware is just adjusting to a changing market and the dying of the pureblood rpg genre.
And about the people saying that mass effect 2's story was mediocre i honestly have no idea what your talking about

The retconning of Cerberus, the shoehorning of the player into working with Cerberus, the lack of a main antagonist (it really hows how important Saren was as an identifiable villain),......Shamus did it better than me.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004
He gets nitpicky, but a lot of his points are spot on.

 

[IAmTheVoid]

Hey Maxwell- I'd like to say thanks for a well written post and fairly well structured. I don't AGREE with you, but still. It's nice to have somebody who'll actually use their bloody brain before posting!

What most of your issues seem to stem from is an anger at balance. Except for Baldur's Gate, I've never found BioWare games to be challenging- but that's not what I look for in them. I don't want a cakewalk, but I don't want the kind of challenge which comes with playing Civilisation 4 on Immortal, or something. There are some games I play for challenge and some I don't; BioWare just don't DO challenge. They test you and sometimes throw a curveball, but they never make it ridiculously hard, but then again I don't want them to. That's just my opinion, though, and I can see why you as a gamer want further challenge from BioWare.

There's one of your criticisms with DA2 which annoyed me: "being forced to romance Anders or shut him down". Sometimes people make the first move and you have to reject them, even if you're their friend. Why should it be different? I thought it made a nice change of pace, to be honest, considering it's always the player character who initiates the move to jump into people's pants half the time (Zevran being an obvious exception).

Also, the Fade REALLY isn't the Warp. I'm sorry, but it isn't. I'd actually go as far to say as the Fade being one of the more unique things in the BioWare universe. Obviously they share similarities (alternate dimension where mysterious power stems from and demons eat people) but also stark differences (note, the 'good' spirits and the lack of any real order within the fade, unlike the Demon Lords).

But I'm just nitpicking here. Short answer: I don't think they're going downhill- just in a direction you don't like. I think CD Projekt are probably right up your alley.

 

[Dogstile]

Oh, hey, one of these threads. Hello doom and gloom thread! How are you today? Me? Oh, I'm just fine, slightly tired of people declaring how things are always getting worse constantly.

It's pretty annoying. Especially when they only really use personal experience to back it up. Because they obviously don't understand how the world works. In fact I'm pretty sure it's been shown numerous times that both the DA2 and ME2 hate is just the vocal minority being at it again, and is in no way indicative of how good either game actually is.

Eh, i've never been one to shout on forums about how it sucked, but hell, I really couldn't get into DA. It just didn't FEEL like a Bioware game.

^^^^
A guy who usually doesn't complain about games complaining to prove a point

Anyway, op: The only thing EA are going to do is destroy the brand name. Did you know their are seven Biowares now? Yes, seven. It was just one before they joined up.

 

[Bostur]

I notice a very distinct difference in style between the Black Isle games of old and the newer generation of games starting with Kotor and Jade Empire developed by BioWare itself.

The new BioWare style focus on storytelling and puts gameplay on the backseat. I think thats a general trend in post 2000 gaming, it's just more obvious in BioWare titles.

I feel that DA:O is the notable exception, being a much more polished titled than the rest.

ME2 is interesting because I see that as an attempt to focus on core gameplay, it actually is a very competent cover-based shooter in it's own.

 

[Frankster]

I wouldnt say bioware's quality is failling rather its strengths and weaknesses are changing....

That bioware's writing is still considered the "best" out of western rpg developpers today never ceases to mind fuck me. That is their current most glaring weakness imo (see me2, plot wise you just can't defend that thing, do i even need to mention da2?) but at same time, their presentation and mastery of cinematic effects to trick the player into making them think the game is way more awesome then it is, is something biowares becoming really good at (see me2, cinematic and movie like are definitly qualities you can assign it. A lot of the scenes are just beautiful to watch).

Bioware might be losing its touch at old fashioned rpging, and some of its writing team are developping disturbing trends for my tastes (i have little tolerance for joss whedon style quips and attitude), but their games are definitly getting good at being cinematic and when backed by solid gameplay and a popcorn munching story , become more then the sum of their parts in theory.

At least thats what im hoping for with TOR. Though if i play sith warrior i know not to ever let that slave girl free from her shock collar, lest she start quipping on me and i lose my mute button.

 

[Denariax]

Wait, they had quality? They told lackluster stories mostly copied from other people and gave a false sense of actual choice. Their only marks come from looking pretty; so let them go make movies instead.

 

[DustyDrB]

They still haven't made a game I don't like (though I haven't played the Sonic one, The Old Republic, Shattered Steel, and MDK2). Mass Effect 2 is my favorite game of all-time (and the first game is #3). I'd say it's a definite no to the question posed by the thread title.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Also, the Fade REALLY isn't the Warp. I'm sorry, but it isn't. I'd actually go as far to say as the Fade being one of the more unique things in the BioWare universe. Obviously they share similarities (alternate dimension where mysterious power stems from and demons eat people) but also stark differences (note, the 'good' spirits and the lack of any real order within the fade, unlike the Demon Lords).

It's more "alternate dimension where mysterious power stems from and where demons that are exaggerated aspects of the human/nonhuman psyche - and predominantly destructive aspects thereof - and that mages/psykers use as a source of power but that can destroy them and everything around them if they let their guard down."

It does lead you to give the qunari/templars a lot more slack re: their treatment of mages when you realize they're basically living in a young version of the 40K universe

 

[Kahunaburger]

and some of its writing team are developping disturbing trends for my tastes (i have little tolerance for joss whedon style quips and attitude)

Agree with this. It's borderline annoying even when Joss Whedon does it, and Bioware isn't exactly Joss Whedon.

 

[Erttheking]

Haven't had any problems with the ME games any disagreements that anyone can have about them really comes down to opinion, personally I love them. Can't speak for dragon age, but I heard they're being developed by a different team anyway.

 

[Mikeyfell]

My, you're observant.
Yeah Bioware has started to suck ever since EA took over and tried to suck all the creativity out of their souls.
Not only that it's hard to follow Baldur's Gate, and it's also hard to follow KOTOR, so even if EA wasn't making them suck you'd still probably see a dip in quality

Personally Dragon Age Origins is the best game that's come out on this side of the console generation. And I have unrivaled love for the Mass Effect games, but ever since Bioware has tried to make their games more about action oriented gameplay instead of deep involving stories they have started to suck, the writing is still top notch and that carries a lot of weight for me.

I'm worried for ME3 because of all the news saying it's going to be the best cover based shooter on the market. That scares me because there is no way that a cover based shooter could ever be less than awful. If they cut down on the dialog or the writing seems uncreatively churned out as just excuses to shoot more shit Bioware will be officially dead

 

[blueb0g]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOolbdL1Vx4&feature=plcp&context=C30d9161UDOEgsToPDskJH8KfYSz4D23PcNNrvPm8W

TB's response to the first question; pretty much perfect.

 

[Deadyawn]

I would agree that bioware is declining as of late. The standard of writing set as a precedent in their previous titles wasn't met by both ME2 and DA2. That's not to say they were bad games (although DA2 was a bit rubbish) but that they don't stand out in the way bioware games traditionally do. ME2 is fun gameplay wise and the writing as far as dialogue and characters is concerned is very good. The main plot is stupid, railroady and full of holes. DA2 was just all over the place, with little coherent story structure, boring combat and an extremely bad and obviously rushed ending. Again, character and dialogue was generally solid.
I don't know. There's still good stuff in these games but it's amongst a lot of bad stuff that didn't used to be there. I don't think bioware's gone for good or that they'll continue sliding down this slippery slope but I do think they need to get their act together and soon.

 

[slackbheep]

Baldurs Gate 2 and it's expansion stand as the high water mark for them storywise in my opinion, that said I'm still a huge fan and have enjoyed everything they've done outside those iPhone games(I should mention I also haven't touched their facebook games, or what have you). Mass Effect 2 blew me away, and while Dragon Age 2 wasn't quite up to that standard it was still a great game I've gone back to once already. The Old Republic is not quite the same beast, but has been some of the most fun I've ever had in an MMO. It's probably fair to call me a fanboy, they make games that hit me right in my happy place. No apologies though, There are precious few developers who so reliably hook me.

 

[Micalas]

Oh, hey, one of these threads. Hello doom and gloom thread! How are you today? Me? Oh, I'm just fine, slightly tired of people declaring how things are always getting worse constantly.

It's pretty annoying. Especially when they only really use personal experience to back it up. Because they obviously don't understand how the world works. In fact I'm pretty sure it's been shown numerous times that both the DA2 and ME2 hate is just the vocal minority being at it again, and is in no way indicative of how good either game actually is.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.274668-Dragon-Age-2-Sales

Sales speak louder than the vocal minority that think DA2 was a good game.

Remember that time MW3 sold billions of copies? Yep, great game. /sarcasm

 

[AnotherAvatar]

The Old Republic is a brilliant blend of styles and is quite fun, but it has many flaws (including the Mass Effect conversation issue of sometimes having no idea what you're going to say) and a host of glitches, and I can't help but think that the original Knights of the Old Republic was better in many ways.

That said, I really loved Dragon Age, an epic game with a solid plot and great dialogue system, though as you mentioned it had a pretty unoriginal world.

That said Dragon Age 2 made me want to vomit blood as it got rid of all the things I liked about the previous game (except maybe the plot, I have to admit I haven't played it past the demo because the combat, dialogue and character creation systems all offended me to the point of a silent boycott).

Are Bioware dropping in quality?

I feel you make a good point sir and I feel you can say they are.

However, to offer constructive counter argument:

Mass Effect 2 was far better than Mass Effect with a much more lively pace, better set pieces, and more fluid combat system, so there's an improvement. However the improvement was made oddly by making that series less Bioware-ish. I feel like this may be the issue Bioware has run into, with Mass Effect and it's success at being a less complex role playing experience open to a wider market they're turning all the rest of their game into less hardcore RPG style games, which while working wonderfully for Mass Effect is a horrible thing to do to all of their games (which we can now say they have, with the Old Republic and Dragon Age 2 using the convo system whole sale, I miss actually knowing what I'm saying when I role play, kind of vital yeah?).

I feel like someone should go through the bioware staff and pick out the guys who are good and like the Mass Effect direction, make them one team, and make the more old school CRPG crafters into another team. One can explore the potential future of RPGs (or whatever) while the other can be perfecting the concepts of the past while they keep pumping out more games like the original Dragon Age.


But, I also wish that the American government would stop oppressing free speech, and I don't see that happening any time soon either.

Dreams, everyone's got 'em.