Hatred of PUAs? Why?

[blackrave]

And like I wrote previously, what they are doing isn't something entirely new.

So? That's not a defence.

Yes, it isn't. But I'm not trying to defend them.
I'm just pointing out that while they aren't doing nothing new, hatred PUAs receive is quite harsh.

Point me to a video where a woman is actively harassing men, forcing herself on them, using their insecurities against them to make herself seem more appealing and then teaching other women how to do that as a positive thing and then get back to me.

Most make-up videos?
I don't find them to be much better than what PUAs are doing.

How? Putting on lipstick is not manipulating people.

I'm not talking about putting lipstick. I'm talking about ones that involve caking oneself in multiple layers of unnecessary chemicals to the point you're basically sculpted new face on top of your own.
Granted "most" wasn't appropriate word to use.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

They take men with very low self-esteem and train them to put on a facade that at the best of times is a negative presence and at worst is downright predatory.

Isn't that what people who hook up for one night stands do anyway?

No. People who go out looking for one-night stands are fairly straightforwards. They also tend to be positive presences. Something attractive. PUAs are all about being a negative presence and putting them down in the hopes that their self-esteem is down to their own levels.

We apparently have different experiences.
I'm jealous a bit to be honest.

Jealous of what? Sex isn't all its cracked up to be. I realize that may be as useful a statement as a wealthy man saying money isn't everything. The path of the PUA is not a good one to go down. Be friendly, open and genuinely listen without hidden intent. It will get you places.

 

[Angelblaze]

I'm not talking about putting lipstick. I'm talking about ones that involve caking oneself in multiple layers of unnecessary chemicals to the point you're basically sculpted new face on top of your own.
Granted "most" wasn't appropriate word to use.

So you equate women making themselves more attractive into an automatic way of deceiving you?

I'm sorry, but I don't find "doing to ones self for ones self" mantra to be true at all.
When it comes to presenting oneself to the world we do so to achieve certain effect on other people.

So yeah. That's sad. Reminds me why I'm celibate.

How sad, to have to imagine that every woman's action taken on their own body must somehow be for and to the benefit of you, that everything she does must revolve around your sexuality towards her. You must get so angry when a woman dares to say the word 'no' to you, I'm not surprised about the content of this thread.

You must have seizures of terror around gay men.

On a side note, if your going to say that putting on make up is 'caking oneself is multiple layers of unnecessary chemicals to the point you're basically sculpted new face on top of your own.'(which is obviously attempting to use over the top and over dramatic descriptions of make up to try and sway opinion), we could easily say that for things like vaccines and medicines, taking things to help deceive you into thinking your immune system is stronger then it really is, until you've basically sculpted a new immune system for yourself.
(A silly exaggeration, obviously).

Given the content of this thread that somehow suggests that women can't be pretty because they want to be pretty, henceforth stating that somehow a woman cannot find herself attractive unless it is, in the end, for the benefit of a man, I think you can tell why people hate PUAs and the influence they can have over people such as you.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm just pointing out that while they aren't doing nothing new

What has that got to do with anything?

I'm not talking about putting lipstick. I'm talking about ones that involve caking oneself in multiple layers of unnecessary chemicals to the point you're basically sculpted new face on top of your own.

Assuming that's what is happening (which it isn't), so?

Again, not remotely like manipulating people.

 

[Angelblaze]

Ok op, how about this?

Make-up isn't illegal.

Rape by cohersion is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion

That simple enough for you?

 

[blackrave]

Most make-up videos?
I don't find them to be much better than what PUAs are doing.

Wow. that's some serious issues with women there my friend. That is not the same thing at all, Make up is done to ones self for ones self.

You jumped to conclusions surprisingly fast.
Mind psychoanalyzing me further?
(I'm dead serious here, that would be at least entertaining)

I'm sorry, but I don't find "doing to ones self for ones self" mantra to be true at all.
When it comes to presenting oneself to the world we do so to achieve certain effect on other people.

Are there many women who put on make-up, sexy clothes and then spend evening home alone while marathoning Game of Thrones and eating bucket of ice-cream?
I haven't met such women yet.

 

[Angelblaze]

Most make-up videos?
I don't find them to be much better than what PUAs are doing.

Wow. that's some serious issues with women there my friend. That is not the same thing at all, Make up is done to ones self for ones self.

You jumped to conclusions surprisingly fast.
Mind psychoanalyzing me further?
(I'm dead serious here, that would be at least entertaining)

I'm sorry, but I don't find "doing to ones self for ones self" mantra to be true at all.
When it comes to presenting oneself to the world we do so to achieve certain effect on other people.

Are there many women who put on make-up, sexy clothes and then spend evening home alone while marathoning Game of Thrones and eating bucket of ice-cream?
I haven't met such women yet.

My mother, if you're willing to replace home alone with 'The Walking Dead'. (But really, wtf do you mean by sexy clothing?)

 

[blackrave]

I'm just pointing out that while they aren't doing nothing new

What has that got to do with anything?

It seems we have a little misunderstanding here.
(because we can repeat same things to each other over and over again)
What do you think this thread is about?

I'm not talking about putting lipstick. I'm talking about ones that involve caking oneself in multiple layers of unnecessary chemicals to the point you're basically sculpted new face on top of your own.

Assuming that's what is happening (which it isn't), so?

Again, not remotely like manipulating people.

I disagree, faking your looks is, at least partially, a method of manipulation.

 

[Angelblaze]

I'm just pointing out that while they aren't doing nothing new

What has that got to do with anything?

It seems we have a little misunderstanding here.
(because we can repeat same things to each other over and over again)
What do you think this thread is about?

I'm not talking about putting lipstick. I'm talking about ones that involve caking oneself in multiple layers of unnecessary chemicals to the point you're basically sculpted new face on top of your own.

Assuming that's what is happening (which it isn't), so?

Again, not remotely like manipulating people.

I disagree, faking your looks is, at least partially, a method of manipulation.

Manipulation, by its very own description, has to be done with the intent of getting the said target of the manipulation to do a certain deed.

In order for all women and all makeup to be deception/manipulation like you claim, requires you to believe that somehow their attractiveness is done in some way to manipulate you into doing a goal. Hence why many of the people in this thread are repulsed by your claims; you are self-centered to the point where you believe, somehow, that a woman making herself look attractive must always come down to you. You are the center of your sexual universe.

In addition to that, the claim that it is manipulation also paints the very target of your sexual desire in a negative light by claiming they are being surreptitious to a negative end. You, in this compartmentalization you've created, not only paint all women who wear makeup as somehow being deceptive but also, somehow, evil.

Yet, nowhere along the lines do you acknowledge the immense amount of differences between women wearing makeup and men literally forcing themselves onto women; the main part being that one probably doesn't give a shit about the men around them and more then likely doesn't see them as 'targets', the other one has a specific goal in mind that comes at the end of blatantly lying, ignoring, disenfranchising and deceiving the target.

Not to mention the fast and loose definition of what you find attractive already making things blurry enough as is.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What do you think this thread is about?

You claiming that PUAs shouldn't get the hate they do, based on rather bizarre arguments.

That people have been doing what PUAs do for a long time does not in any way excuse them, nor mean hatred for them is misguided.

I disagree, faking your looks is, at least partially, a method of manipulation.

In what possible way could it be considered manipulative, and more specifically equivalent to the manipulation used by PUAs?

 

[blackrave]

Ok op, how about this?

Make-up isn't illegal.

Rape by cohesion is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion

That simple enough for you?

Can you really consider all coercion a rape?
"Sexual coercion in animals is the use of violence, threats, harassment, and other tactics by males"
Harassment and other tactics are what PUAs specialize in.
Dick move, yes, but is it illegal?

snip

My mother, if you're willing to replace home alone with 'The Walking Dead'.

O_O
I stand corrected, apparently there are women like that out there.

Is it safe to assume that it is exception, or is it closer to baseline behavior?
From my point of view this is closer to exception.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Point me to a video where a woman is actively harassing men, forcing herself on them, using their insecurities against them to make herself seem more appealing and then teaching other women how to do that as a positive thing and then get back to me.

Most make-up videos?
I don't find them to be much better than what PUAs are doing.

What the...I...I...

OK, you know what, I give in. I'm never going outside again, lest I lay eyes on a woman wearing makeup. Because clearly, by wearing makeup, she's harassing me. No, she's not just harassing me, she's forcing herself on me. Did I ask for that makeup? No, clearly I didn't, but there she is, harassing me with the makeup I didn't want! Oh, but she isn't just harassing and forcing herself on me. Oh no, she's also manipulating me, taking my insecurities and turning them against me. And all without saying a word, that demonic *****! So yeah, I better stay inside and keep the windows covered, because I just know I'll see a woman wearing makeup, and once I see her...Oh, boy, she doesn't have to do anything else. That makeup is a complete package of harassment, forcing herself on me, and making me feel like absolute shit.

...Yeah, I think that says enough.

 

[Angelblaze]

Ok op, how about this?

Make-up isn't illegal.

Rape by cohesion is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion

That simple enough for you?

Can you really consider all coercion a rape?
"Sexual coercion in animals is the use of violence, threats, harassment, and other tactics by males"
Harassment and other tactics are what PUAs specialize in.
Dick move, yes, but is it illegal?

snip

My mother, if you're willing to replace home alone with 'The Walking Dead'.

O_O
I stand corrected, apparently there are women like that out there.

Is it safe to assume that it is exception, or is it closer to baseline behavior?
From my point of view this is closer to exception.

Direct quote from Wikipedia:
'This article is about sexual coercion among non-human animals. For sexual coercion among humans, see Rape.'
Please stop disgusting me.

And I believe its safe to assume that women have the right to use cosmetics or do whatever they want with zero care for men. Make of that what you will.

In addition: If a woman wearing make up is the equivalent of her going up to you, forcing herself within your space, ignoring your telling her 'no' and continuing to harrass you and put you down for not doing what she says, you have some form of paraphillia/disconnection from the actual person and the act of sex.

By claiming that they cannot do a particular thing that you find attractive without you being the ends to justify it, you remove their intent and decision regarding the matter and place yourself as the center of their decision making, hence (sorry for using this word again, trust me I don't like it either) objectifying them by stating that they cannot take that action without you being involved.

 

[blackrave]

What do you think this thread is about?

You claiming that PUAs shouldn't get the hate they do, based on rather bizarre arguments.

That people have been doing what PUAs do for a long time does not in any way excuse them, nor mean hatred for them is misguided.

Close, but not exactly.
I don't entirely understand why hatred towards them is so intense.
Maybe it is totally deserved.
THAT IS WHY I'M ASKING.
Are we clear now?

I disagree, faking your looks is, at least partially, a method of manipulation.

In what possible way could it be considered manipulative, and more specifically equivalent to the manipulation used by PUAs?

Dishonesty and exploitation of male instincts.
Not enough?

 

[blackrave]

Direct quote from Wikipedia:
'This article is about sexual coercion among non-human animals. For sexual coercion among humans, see Rape.'
Please stop disgusting me.

1.Yeah, I saw it, but you linked it yourself.
2.Question wasn't do I disgust you, question was about all coercion being rape, thus illegal.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I don't entirely understand why hatred towards them is so intense.

Ah, ok then.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised myself at why the hatred towards them is so intense. Not that they don't deserve it, but they seem little different from lots of people who've not adopted the PUA label but do much the same thing. Maybe they are more blatant?

Dishonesty and exploitation of male instincts.
Not enough?

In what way is it "exploitation of male instincts"? Is it exploiting male instincts for men to wear, say, leather coats, cause other men think leather coats, and people that wear them, are cool?

Or, for that matter, dishonest. It's not like people don't know that makeup to change the colouration of skin is worn by many people without it being considered a big deal.

 

[Angelblaze]

What do you think this thread is about?

You claiming that PUAs shouldn't get the hate they do, based on rather bizarre arguments.

That people have been doing what PUAs do for a long time does not in any way excuse them, nor mean hatred for them is misguided.

Close, but not exactly.
I don't entirely understand why hatred towards them is so intense.
Maybe it is totally deserved.
THAT IS WHY I'M ASKING.
Are we clear now?

I disagree, faking your looks is, at least partially, a method of manipulation.

In what possible way could it be considered manipulative, and more specifically equivalent to the manipulation used by PUAs?

Dishonesty and exploitation of male instincts.
Not enough?

IMO?

The hatred against them is so intense because of people like you who attempt to using a non-harmful action (in a VERY generalized manner) in comparison to what they are doing to justify their specific actions - while, also, removing any and all of the actual reasons and reasoning taken behind that action and using a mixture of moral disengagement and selective disbelief to justify it.

I'm sorry, but I don't find "doing to ones self for ones self" mantra to be true at all.

See my previous comments on page 1.

Edit: You know what? I don't think I can deal with the self-centered comments of the op in this thread, so I'm bowing out here. Good luck to the rest of you.

 

[blackrave]

Trying to look attractive in a way that everybody with two brain cells to rub together knows is unnatural and often for the purpose of the person being glad with their own appearance rather than trying to meet an end goal of coercing somebody into having sex with them is a lot different from constantly lying, manipulating and otherwise doing anything unscrupulous to get a woman, quite often emotionally vulnerable women, to submit to sex with you. The fact that this needs to be explained by anybody is absolutely horrifying.

Hold on, let me dig something out that I'm sure another user would post here if they were online.

Mocking attitude aside, you may have something here.

constantly lying, manipulating and otherwise doing anything unscrupulous to get a woman, quite often emotionally vulnerable women, to submit to sex with you.

In particular

quite often emotionally vulnerable women, to submit to sex with you.

I wasn't paying attention regarding who these manipulation methods are being used against.
When I was reading about these methods and laughing about them I was visualizing someone trying them on women from my surrounding.
Now that you mentioned it, there are emotionally and mentally damaged women out there, true.
If these are primary targets of PUAs than we may have something here.

 

[TakerFoxx]

Snip

Putting on make-up and nice clothes could be called a sort of manipulation I guess, but only under the loosest of definitions, and ultimately a harmless one. And really it just boils down to advertisement.

What PUA's do is not harmless. By your own admission they (or at least the ones that are hated, I admittedly know very little about the trend as a whole) go out of their way to stalk, harass, and otherwise treat their targets like meat. It's predatory behavior. And therein lies the difference. One says, "Hey, if you're down for it, this is what you'll get!" The other says, "You belong to me, whether you like it or not."