Hatred of PUAs? Why?

[R.K. Meades]

I'd say because most guys would be genuinely grateful for any attempt by a woman to have sex with them, regardless of whether the woman uses make-up, fake nails/hair/eyelashes, push-up bras, shape improving lingerie, high heels, revealing clothes.

When you're a straight guy under the age of 30, absolutely. If you pass that hurdle with financial stability, no kids, and minimal personal baggage, the novelty of women actively pursuing you will fade quicker than the scent of cheap cologne.

 

[stroopwafel]

So, PUA is like this 'controversial' dating advice right? Other than the mass potential for scamming desperate guys from their money I don't see anything wrong with it. That is if the intent is to be more confident around women, which I assume is the point.

Let's be honest here, it's much easier for women to find someone for sex than it is for a guy. Not only that but the urge to have sex is also much worse for men. Not that women can't enjoy sex as much(they do) but they don't have that oppressive urge that necessitates physical release. Like women can go for weeks without masturbation if they don't have a sex partner, but for a guy this would be unthinkable.

So, it's easier for women to have sex but it's much harder for guys to find it despite suffering from more physical immediacy. This unreciprocated desire is I think reason for a lot of resentment.

Getting back to the point its hard for many to most men to 'seduce' women. Mostly for the biological(or rather hormonal) difference I explained above. So whatever helps helps. Also the people who read this kind of PUA-crap are the love-shy geeks and other dateless 'losers' and the thought of them suddenly turning into some kind of suave fuckers 'manipulating' any and every woman into bed is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

What is make-up, fake nails/hair/eyelashes, push-up bras, shape improving lingerie, high heels, revealing clothes, etc., if NOT manipulation of male psyche.

Spoiler

Maybe I'm missing something, but....

This is our current Prime Minister.

Isn't it less of a taboo for men to wear next to nothing than women in pretty much every society on this planet?

For the longest time women had to show modesty in all public expressions of life. Many cultures still have this mentality. If anything, the level field has only recently evened out. (Edit) As for makeup up? Exactly how many wear much of it beyond going out? I guess it's because people want to look creative? Same reason people get tattoos, or wear earrings and other piercings. The body is a fashion statement. Is fashion bad?

 

[Asclepion]

Let's be honest here, it's much easier for women to find someone for sex than it is for a guy. Not only that but the urge to have sex is also much worse for men. Not that women can't enjoy sex as much(they do) but they don't have that oppressive urge that necessitates physical release. Like women can go for weeks without masturbation if they don't have a sex partner, but for a guy this would be unthinkable.

So, it's easier for women to have sex but it's much harder for guys to find it despite suffering from more physical immediacy. This unreciprocated desire is I think reason for a lot of resentment.

This makes me wonder at what level immersive VR or realistic gynoids would change the dynamic between the sexes. The girls from Dead or Alive are more beautiful than 99% of the world's female population, and already we have examples of people losing themselves inside MMOs and such.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So, PUA is like this 'controversial' dating advice right? Other than the mass potential for scamming desperate guys from their money I don't see anything wrong with it.

Well, apart from the controversy being that PUAs preach behaviour that is manipulative or outright abusive. To the extent that noted PUA lecturer got deported from Australia and not allowed into the UK either. IIRC, he was big on going to Japan and walking the streets, grabbing random women and pushing their heads into his crotch or somesuch.

 

[stroopwafel]

Let me see if I have this right...

-It's easier for women to find someone for sex than it is for guys
-Men want to have sex more.
-Women don't have a "physical need" for sex, like men.
-Women go weeks without masturbating, compared to men.
-It's hard for MOST men to seduce women.

That's... a LOT that I think most men and women wouldn't agree with. I'm sure that there are plenty of boys and girls who believe that, and doubtless some very shy and lonely adults, but mostly that would appear to be views you've developed based on...

...What exactly?

3 ex-girlfriends and about a dozen one-night stands. Also I never said women don't have a 'physical need', but rather that they lack the physical urge that necessitates release in whatever shape or form. I dated women who loved sex but never masturbated and who were also oblivious to the fact how much men desired them(not just physical but also emotional, espescially emotional). Not their fault ofcourse, but it made me more observant about our differences in perception.

Like I said, it takes much more 'triggers' to get women in the mood than men. Because the immediate urge is a lot less there needs to be some kind of emotional and psychological stimulation as well, which is what a lot of men don't understand b/c we don't experience it that way. This difference in perception is why this PUA-crap is so popular, b/c it attempts to 'demistify' women in a way guys understand.

One can say that's totally crap, but like I said if such a little thing helps some guys to be more confident around women, than that's better than sitting at home fuming on the internet.

 

[stroopwafel]

So, PUA is like this 'controversial' dating advice right? Other than the mass potential for scamming desperate guys from their money I don't see anything wrong with it.

Well, apart from the controversy being that PUAs preach behaviour that is manipulative or outright abusive. To the extent that noted PUA lecturer got deported from Australia and not allowed into the UK either. IIRC, he was big on going to Japan and walking the streets, grabbing random women and pushing their heads into his crotch or somesuch.

Yeah, I read about that a while ago as well. Obviously that guy is a total piece of shit who deserves a good slapping. But ofcourse there are more pathetic excuses for a man like those who beat and/or abuse their wife and never even heard of the term 'PUA'. From what I understand the douchebag you mentioned is mostly just a scammer trying to put up an act for gullible morons to give him money.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Ah, ok then.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised myself at why the hatred towards them is so intense. Not that they don't deserve it, but they seem little different from lots of people who've not adopted the PUA label but do much the same thing. Maybe they are more blatant?

I agree. Like wingmen, etc. Personally I just think it's kind of pathetic. Then again, I'm not really big into the whole vanilla penetration stuff and I know plenty of guys that aren't big into penetration. More whips, pvc, leather, humiliation, hooks, electrodes, wax, and more. Totally normal guys on the surface until you see their bedroom. Assuming they live with their partner(s).

Personally it seems like a waste of time to have sex with someone you don't feel, at least at the time, that you want to get to know them. The brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. If you can't stimulate that then you're not going to be very interesting company in bed. It's kind of pathetic if all you have is two-bit psychology tricks that tend to only work on a few individuals lacking self-esteem, or drugged to incapacitation.

It's almost like they're a disease that aggravates a pre-existing condition.

Most of the people I sleep with? Well, guys or girls they're interesting people. Their brains are sexy. If they have a way of comporting themselves in a manner that is mentally stimulating, then they'll be physically enticing. That doesn't mean they need to be brainy, or some obvious professional. They just need to have ... how to say it? Like an interesting brain. They know how to engage.

 

[stroopwafel]

Now don't make me set you on a cup of coffee and leave you for hungry Dutch.

By all means, you get the coffee and I'll treat you to the most delicious cake you ever tasted. All in good company ofcourse.

 

[Dizchu]

I find it pretty telling that many of the people that believe that PUA tactics work also believe in things like the "friendzone". Such a concept indicates to me a dissatisfaction with having female friends, as if an attractive female wanting to be friends with the guy is somehow a bad thing??? But the thing is, the easiest way to get laid is by having... female friends! And frequent interaction with them too. It also means that the guy has a better understanding of how women may behave differently to men (on average), and empathy is pretty much one of the most essential things for a relationship. Hell, even a one-night-stand would be made infinitely better if the guy actually gave a shit about the woman (and vice versa).

You know how I have a girlfriend? Because I'm actually nice to people. And not the fedora version of "nice" either, I genuinely care about people. I have never had to use even the slightest bit of coercion, and I'm a super awkward individual that has an appearance that doesn't exactly scream "mainstream appeal".

Getting back to the point its hard for many to most men to 'seduce' women.

Why does seduction necessarily have to be a part of the process? What's wrong with finding someone that just "clicks" with you and letting a sexual relationship develop naturally?

 

[Redryhno]

I find it pretty telling that many of the people that believe that PUA tactics work also believe in things like the "friendzone". Such a concept indicates to me a dissatisfaction with having female friends, as if an attractive female wanting to be friends with the guy is somehow a bad thing??? But the thing is, the easiest way to get laid is by having... female friends! And frequent interaction with them too. It also means that the guy has a better understanding of how women may behave differently to men (on average), and empathy is pretty much one of the most essential things for a relationship. Hell, even a one-night-stand would be made infinitely better if the guy actually gave a shit about the woman (and vice versa).

You know how I have a girlfriend? Because I'm actually nice to people. And not the fedora version of "nice" either, I genuinely care about people. I have never had to use even the slightest bit of coercion, and I'm a super awkward individual that has an appearance that doesn't exactly scream "mainstream appeal".

Getting back to the point its hard for many to most men to 'seduce' women.

Why does seduction necessarily have to be a part of the process? What's wrong with finding someone that just "clicks" with you and letting a sexual relationship develop naturally?

C'mon, you and I both know that's not how the concept of the friendzone works. It's not about having female friends as a dissatisfaction, it's mostly just putting a word to caring about someone that doesn't care about you to the same degree. It used to just be called the zone, but that wasn't acceptable for a variety of reasons(including the people that normally make stinks about words), and so the friend part was added. And don't be silly and assume it's only guys that are a part of that. Just as most of the people in here assume that all PUAs/people that take PUA classes are guys. Really close-minded thought process there.

Personally I've never really had it happen to me, but I apparently did put a buddy of mine there unconsciously. And that's honestly what most of it is, unconsciously locking yourself off from someone as a romantic partner, and using it, it's more a rage against life and putting a word to being overly shy/afraid of rejection in most cases. We've got alot of people that just don't interact in the same way nowadays, the internet's made it easier(or worsened the problem depending on how you look at it), but there's always been hermits and outcasts.

And believe it or not, most PUA starters are about at the very least, feigning empathy and learning tells. You feign something enough, and chances are you'll actually get it for real. Honestly can't see much wrong with PUAs beyond how some of them are like the douche everyone likes bringing up because he's probably one of the only ones they actually know about(imagine that). Some people they may harm, but I really can't have too much sympathy for the people that frequent most of the places PUAs go to, because it's normally where people go to hook up in the first place for the most part and hooking up is sorta what they learn to do.

You wanna know how I got a girlfriend? Because we've known each other since we were kids and screwed around together until we realized we liked each other as more than friends, and I can tell you honestly, I'm not the most polite guy, I'm nice because sometimes it's easier and gets me through what I need to do faster, but most of the time, I just drop it and just try not to bother anyone in a way that inconveniences me. So being nice honestly doesn't help or hinder alot of the time. It's a nice enough thought, but it's not really good advice to just say "be nice", because that's how the fedora nice joke you just spouted and the friendzone being looked so down upon came about, a bunch of people telling others to just "be nice" and they'll get someone that cares about them the same way. And life is not that easy or straight-forward.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Boy did you hit a wasp nest with that one OP.

What PUA are realistically is instruction course womanizers, where others had to go out and cut their teeth on trial and error these guys take a seminar where the information is compiled.
Why do people hate them so much? God the list of reasons is just endless, but the core of it is people are afraid of sex, and someone methodically openly practising how to get more sex is just the most heinous social criminal you can be.

 

[stroopwafel]

Now don't make me set you on a cup of coffee and leave you for hungry Dutch.

By all means, you get the coffee and I'll treat you to the most delicious cake you ever tasted. All in good company ofcourse.

Of course! So, are you Dutch, or just a fan of stroopwafels?

Heheh both.

I grew up with a Dutch friend, and his mother used actually make them... so good. I've been buying them ever since to have with coffee.

Yeah, they are so nice with coffee! That's pretty cool your friend's mom made them herself. I buy them in a store and they are good, but nothing beats homemade! Though I imagine if you live abroad in due time you start to miss some of your native cuisine. I bought caramel waffles elsewhere but just..not the same.