Have We No Shame?

[sallene]

I will lay this out there.

I am not pro choice. Abortion should not be just another form of birth control, if you dont want get pregnant women should keep their legs closed and men should keep it zipped up in their pants.

That being said, I do think abortion should be legal. I am not pro-life or any super extremist person who throws fake fetuses at abortion clinics. Abortion is a viable and sometimes necessary "medical" proceedure. Emphasis on the medical part(not birth control).

There are times during pregnancy when either the mother or childs life would be put into danger or where complications can result in serious physical/mental harm to the unborn child and mother. During these times(or pregnancies resulting from rape/incest/abuse) it might be necessary to perfom the abortion procedure. In that case I would not wish that decision on even my worst enemy. To choose between you and the life growing inside you and all the possibilities it may hold is not one I would want to have to make in a million years.


So while I find it disgusting that people would use it as a form of birth control I still however believe it should be a taught and practiced medical procedure.


So no, this person should not have died, or been threatened. Willingly committing acts of violence against abortion providers is worse in many ways from that perspective than a woman going in to have an abortion. While the woman may be erasing a life and all its possiblities, such people as the murder mentioned in this article are eliminated a person, actual and whole, who is defined by more than just this one thing.

Dr. Tiller obviously went to church, probably participated in his community, and had children. So now, they have not only not stopped abortions from taking place by eliminating one man, they have also removed this person from his children and wife, and his future grandchildren. This man has robbed this persons grandchildren from ever knowing him. In a way that is tragically the same as the abortion that wackos like the one accussed for Dr. tiller's murder try to stop.


My two cents in as rational and calm way as possible.

 

[spuddyt]

He was shot by pro-life extremists... I don't think you can get any more ironic.

lol this ^

 

[BioHazard19]

Isn't it a little hypocritical to murder someone for committing what you believe to be murder?

 

[hypothetical fact]

I will lay this out there.

I am not pro choice. Abortion should not be just another form of birth control, if you dont want get pregnant women should keep their legs closed and men should keep it zipped up in their pants.

That being said, I do think abortion should be legal. I am not pro-life or any super extremist person who throws fake fetuses at abortion clinics. Abortion is a viable and sometimes necessary "medical" proceedure. Emphasis on the medical part(not birth control).

There are times during pregnancy when either the mother or childs life would be put into danger or where complications can result in serious physical/mental harm to the unborn child and mother. During these times(or pregnancies resulting from rape/incest/abuse) it might be necessary to perfom the abortion procedure. In that case I would not wish that decision on even my worst enemy. To choose between you and the life growing inside you and all the possibilities it may hold is not one I would want to have to make in a million years.


So while I find it disgusting that people would use it as a form of birth control I still however believe it should be a taught and practiced medical procedure.


So no, this person should not have died, or been threatened. Willingly committing acts of violence against abortion providers is worse in many ways from that perspective than a woman going in to have an abortion. While the woman may be erasing a life and all its possiblities, such people as the murder mentioned in this article are eliminated a person, actual and whole, who is defined by more than just this one thing.

Dr. Tiller obviously went to church, probably participated in his community, and had children. So now, they have not only not stopped abortions from taking place by eliminating one man, they have also removed this person from his children and wife, and his future grandchildren. This man has robbed this persons grandchildren from ever knowing him. In a way that is tragically the same as the abortion that wackos like the one accussed for Dr. tiller's murder try to stop.


My two cents in as rational and calm way as possible.

Lots of Pro Life supporters are fine with it being legal but with the stipulation of massive restrictions on funding and insurance. Are you fine with the restrictions considering how they hamper the chances of rape/incest/abuse victims from having abortions?

 

[bjj hero]

Most murders and such are committed by interpersonal arguments. Most sociopathic killers were atheists who believed there are no morals and no point to life. (And took that to it's logical extreme.)

You'll also find most of the prison population sign up to one god or another and that attendence at services is high inside jails. Whats your point?

 

[Snugglebunny]

He was shot by pro-life extremists... I don't think you can get any more ironic.

Tell me about it, who in their right minds thinks that a good way to get the idea 'don't kill, give life' is best expressed by gunning someone down. If anything, I think this act generated more sympathy for abortion doctors that anything.

Besides, it is a terrible stereotype and propaganda aid, with hundreds of internet and legitimate publications characterizing abortion doctors as soulless hate monsters whose greatest joy in life in murdering babies. Their medical professionals, not baby eating psychopaths, trained to help their patients, AKA the women who come to them seeking help.

I'm hoping that we are mature enough not to blame this on religion.

Actually no, I cannot. In fact I am surprised to even see this post. Of COURSE this was some religious nut from the south. It always is with you Americans.

Wasn't the last guy who did this sort of thing (he sniped them if i remember correctly, 5-10 yrs ago now) some crazy baptist?

First of all, it doesn't even say that the person who killed him was a religious nut. It gives little detail about the person that killed him. Don't jump to conclusions.

Secondly, you can't blame religion for the actions of one psychopath. It's not religions fault that this man decided to kill George Tiller. If a man who believe in natural selection shot a priest, do we blame Charles Darwin?

All the crazy shit IN THE WORLD is caused by religion. Prove me wrong if you can, honestly.

My premise - ALL the "bad" stuff that happens in the world is because of religion. All of it.

Ok, I just thought of one that isn't, North Korea, that's purely political. ok, so ALL of it except that one.

World war 1

I think I went at this the wrong way. So yes, you are correct.

how bout the middle east? how about the 15+ murders and bombings of abortion clinics. War in Somalia? Russians vs Georgia?

It's ALL religion.

Frankly I think it was very rude of you to say "let's hope we're mature enough to not blame this on religion" when this is so obviously a religious issue.

When they bombed 3 clinics on Christmas Day they called it a gift for Jesus. So gimme a break.

And don't blame Christianity! Its not like the Pope stands out of St Peters Square and goes 'hey ya'll lets go gun down some people for fun!' okay? So blame the zealots, who probably have a few screws loose, and do NOT use this an a instance to blab on about how dumb some religion is, geez, so stop the hate mongoring against organized religion! Thats like a dog piddles on your rug, so you run back to the kennel, spewing about how it's their fault. I'm just saying...

PS. I AM Christian, anti-abortion, but pro-choice, and most certainly am quite sane thankyouverymuch

 

[sallene]

Lots of Pro Life supporters are fine with it being legal but with the stipulation of massive restrictions on funding and insurance. Are you fine with the restrictions considering how they hamper the chances of rape/incest/abuse victims from having abortions?

I read back over what I put but I guess I should explain it a bit more.

Do I think abortion should be legal as a form of birth control - No.

do I think abortion should be legal as a form of medical procedure - yes.


I am not so much pro-life as I am pro-responsiblity. Religion or the bible or jesus or god does not factor into why I think abortion shouldnt be used as birth control. I do however think it is highly and grossly irresponsible to destroy a life(any life not just human) due to a persons irresponsiblity.

That said, I do not agree with puttings restrictions on abortions so long as it is used as it should be, a medical precedure necessitated by medical circumstances(including traumatic situatoins resulting from rape/incest/abuse) and not birth control. Also I am pretty sure I specifically stated in my post that abortion shoudl be available in cases of rape/incest/abuse.

 

[garfoldsomeoneelse]

Yeah, I heard about this on BTLS this morning when I was driving to work. It's appalling, but I really have no insight on the subject.

I'm hoping that we are mature enough not to blame this on religion.

As an atheist, I must confess that I, too, am very tired of pro/anti-religious debates on the Escapist. Live and let live. However, I must interject that since the "pro-life" movement in America is largely made up of religious people, it is not unreasonable to assume that his motivations were at least partially charged with religion. It is a statistical fallacy, to be sure, but a forgivable one, given similar events that have occurred in the past.

I must say, though, that charging into this thread and proclaiming "SEE? THIS IS ALL RELIGION'S FAULT. SCORE ONE FOR ATHEISM." is an exercise in absolute dickishness, and I would greatly appreciate it if these people would kindly shut the fuck up and stop perpetuating the well-deserved stereotype that all of us atheists are assholes with a superiority complex.

 

[Sigenrecht]

I'm glad it happened and I support the guy, who did it and here's why:
1)The doc broke the Hippocratic Oath and I like the idea of shooting people, who break oaths.
2)The killer genuinely believed that the doctor was a mass murderer and the only way to stop him was to kill him, even at the cost of his freedom or life. That's a noble act regardless of whether he was right or not. The day that all people stop caring if people around us are being murdered or not will be the beginning of humanity's end.
3)It nicely illustrates the "actions speak louder than words" proverb.

If I published a paper on how the Off-topic Discussion forum of the Escapist was a cesspool of lobotomized cretins, this would be my quod erad demonstrandum.

 

[bjj hero]

I'm glad it happened and I support the guy, who did it and here's why:
1)The doc broke the Hippocratic Oath and I like the idea of shooting people, who break oaths.
2)The killer genuinely believed that the doctor was a mass murderer and the only way to stop him was to kill him, even at the cost of his freedom or life. That's a noble act regardless of whether he was right or not. The day that all people stop caring if people around us are being murdered or not will be the beginning of humanity's end.
3)It nicely illustrates the "actions speak louder than words" proverb.

My problem is with your second point. If I was a PETA nut or some other tree hugging muppet who loved animals a bit too much, placing their value above actual people, then killing the pest control guy to stop a rat genocide is "noble" and doing my bit for the continuation of humanity.

 

[PersianLlama]

I'm hoping that we are mature enough not to blame this on religion.

Actually no, I cannot. In fact I am surprised to even see this post. Of COURSE this was some religious nut from the south. It always is with you Americans.

Wasn't the last guy who did this sort of thing (he sniped them if i remember correctly, 5-10 yrs ago now) some crazy baptist?

First of all, it doesn't even say that the person who killed him was a religious nut. It gives little detail about the person that killed him. Don't jump to conclusions.

Secondly, you can't blame religion for the actions of one psychopath. It's not religions fault that this man decided to kill George Tiller. If a man who believe in natural selection shot a priest, do we blame Charles Darwin?

All the crazy shit IN THE WORLD is caused by religion. Prove me wrong if you can, honestly.

My premise - ALL the "bad" stuff that happens in the world is because of religion. All of it.

Ok, I just thought of one that isn't, North Korea, that's purely political. ok, so ALL of it except that one.

World war 1

I think I went at this the wrong way. So yes, you are correct.

how bout the middle east? how about the 15+ murders and bombings of abortion clinics. War in Somalia? Russians vs Georgia?

It's ALL religion.

Frankly I think it was very rude of you to say "let's hope we're mature enough to not blame this on religion" when this is so obviously a religious issue.

When they bombed 3 clinics on Christmas Day they called it a gift for Jesus. So gimme a break.

Wrong. All wrong.

Religion is not to blame for this. Man is. He takes part in religion, so Man is to blame. Get rid of religion, and man will simply find something else to fight over.

IT's sad that humanity works that way, but it's true. As much as you hate religion, it's not all bad.

ok, so the pope is God's representative on Earth right? In true Catholic doctrine we're not even allowed to speak to him directly (God that is). He is, again by doctrine, infallible. how come at one point there were 2 of them? How about how the church acted during WW2 and persecution of the Jews? How about the crusades?

Infallible my ass. Man is to blame? i thought he was god's representative? You cannot have it both ways.

You're such a bitter person. I hate how some people to feel the need to undermine the beliefs of others in order to make themselves feel superior. In essence, you really are no different than the fanatics in the Middle East.

Also, are you blaming the persecution of Jews during WW2 on Christianity?

I think WW2 was more of a race thing because Jews are racially different from "The Master Race" (Aryans), according to Hitler/Nazi's.

Correct me if I'm wrong. (I really am not sure, I just always thought it was that way)

The man who killed this guy is also no different from the fanatics in the Middle East.

That being said, there are fanatics for nearly everything. You can't blame religion for this, just like you can't blame all white people for the KKK. Sometimes people just take things out of hand and they like to scapegoat things. We all play video games, we're all used to seeing them as the scapegoat.

 

[Sewer Rat]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that someone who is pro-life just ended a life?

 

[PlasticPorter]

I'm hoping that we are mature enough not to blame this on religion.

Actually no, I cannot. In fact I am surprised to even see this post. Of COURSE this was some religious nut from the south. It always is with you Americans.

Wasn't the last guy who did this sort of thing (he sniped them if i remember correctly, 5-10 yrs ago now) some crazy baptist?

First of all, it doesn't even say that the person who killed him was a religious nut. It gives little detail about the person that killed him. Don't jump to conclusions.

Secondly, you can't blame religion for the actions of one psychopath. It's not religions fault that this man decided to kill George Tiller. If a man who believe in natural selection shot a priest, do we blame Charles Darwin?

All the crazy shit IN THE WORLD is caused by religion. Prove me wrong if you can, honestly.

My premise - ALL the "bad" stuff that happens in the world is because of religion. All of it.

Ok, I just thought of one that isn't, North Korea, that's purely political. ok, so ALL of it except that one.

World war 1

I think I went at this the wrong way. So yes, you are correct.

how bout the middle east? how about the 15+ murders and bombings of abortion clinics. War in Somalia? Russians vs Georgia?

It's ALL religion.

Frankly I think it was very rude of you to say "let's hope we're mature enough to not blame this on religion" when this is so obviously a religious issue.

When they bombed 3 clinics on Christmas Day they called it a gift for Jesus. So gimme a break.

its funny that you should blame religion, thats exactly what the people who commited those acts did. If you support blaming religion for atrocities that an individual commits then you must also think that we can blame GTA for gun violence. I mean the Pope says abortion is wrong and somebody decides that that is an excuse to blow up a building. A kid sees a violent movie and also happens to shoot up his school? Can you honestly believe that someone who bombed 3 buildings did it ONLY because someone said it was a good idea? Someone like that is obviously unstable to begin with. I mean Religion can make a person do a lot of things, but im fairly sure that turning you into a homocidial manic is not one of them.

 

[chefassassin2]

[
All the crazy shit IN THE WORLD is caused by religion. Prove me wrong if you can, honestly.
My premise - ALL the "bad" stuff that happens in the world is because of religion. All of it.

Actually, I think all the bad stuff that happens isn't BECAUSE of religion, people just use religion as a focus for what they do. Most religions that I know of preach peace, tolerance, and equality for the most part. Fanatics will take a small piece of that religion or it's scripture and skew it to justify what they would do in the first place.


Personally I find this article and the fact that it happened at all, let alone in a church morally reprehensible. I'm not a religious man by any stretch, but come on! Churches, temples, mosques, and the like are supposed to be safe havens for Pete's sake!

 

[Lord_Ascendant]

don't give the public Ideas or we will have another Murder on the Orient Express before you can say "Poirot"

 

[S-Unleashed]

I'm sick of dumb shits blaming it on religious people.

 

[chefassassin2]

All religions "preach peace". And discriminate against, kill and destroy all members of other religions.

I mean, it's NOT like most of the religions have the "kill or convert all heretics" in their scripture... Oh wait.

I'll agree with that. But there are more people, at least in my experience, that practice the peaceful aspects of religion. It's the extremists who believe that "mmight is right" and take the violence in scriptures to be the be all end all of their beliefs. After all, all you hear about is the violence. You never hear, "50 peaceful Christians prayed quietly today. No casualties."
[sup]Holy hell, how did I become the one defending religion? Must be something in the water.[/sup]

 

[B0BX]

dude ...