HD Remix designer attacks Street Fighter IV

Recommended Videos

D_987

New member
Jun 15, 2008
4,839
0
0
David Sirlin, one of the chief designers behind the Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix project, has attacked Street Fighter IV and listed what he doesn't like about it.

After picking apart various problems with the design and why he does like them, Sirlin's chief complaint is that Street Fighter IV isn't as casual friendly as has been claimed.

Street Fighter 4 is finally here, with several perfect 100/100 reviews. Here's a few things I noticed about the game.

In ranked matches, you can see the opponent's name before the match and kick them or reject the challenge. This allows you to cherry pick who you fight and negates the entire purpose of a ranked match.

In ranked matches (well, all matches) there is no double blind character select. This means the optimum strategy is often to wait until the opponent chooses first so you can counter-pick. This is a very annoying situation.

When lag inevitably happens in an online fighting game, there are different ways to handle it. Some SF4 matches I played had large input delay, maybe as high as 15 frames. This is the time between your button press and seeing the effect happen. Adding input delay is really the worst way to handle lag. GGPO's amazing netcode shows that avoiding input delay and hiding lag in other ways is the way to go. That technology has been readily available for years, so it's disappointing to feel input delay in an online match.

The button config screen is "the wrong way." The right way is for the screen to list functions, then you press the buttons you want to assign. The wrong way is to list buttons, then you scroll through lists of functions to assign. The reason that one way is right and the other way is wrong is pretty clear when you watch people try to configure buttons. I've had to watch what must be thousands of people do this over the years in all the tournaments I've helped run (not to mention local gatherings). When the config screen says "Jab" and requires you to press the button you want, you just press the upper left button on your stick (or whatever button on your gamepad). This is a one-step process. But if the screen lists "X" and then requires you to scroll through functions until you find jab, it requires a two step process. You have to know which button on your controller is labeled "X." When this screen is the right way, no one has to know if the upper left button happens to be X or A or B or whatever else.

If you think this is negligible, you have never seen people set buttons. The wrong way turns what should be a 3 second task into a fairly confusing affair. Yes I know the wrong way allows you to have lots of functions in your list, but this can be done the right way also.

On to gameplay issues. The jumps have strange acceleration to them. While that's subjective, look at Zangief's jump that seems to have the acceleration of a flea. (Incidentally, why does his splash not stay out the whole time in the air?). Also, getting hit out of the air is extremely floaty, which means it takes unusually long to get back to a state where you can actually move again. This "moving in jello" feel is reinforced by many throws that have dead time at the end when it seems like you should be able to move (see Vega's for example).

The size of the stages is extremely large relative to the size of the characters. This helps runaway tactics.

Optimizing for the 1% rather than the 99% case. There's two examples, the first is tech recover (quick get up from a knock down). 99% of the time, I want to get up fast, but this is the action that requires button presses. Why not admit that getting up fast is the intent and make it default, unless the player holds down some buttons to get up slow? That's how it works for Robo-Ky in Guilty Gear, by the way. Incidentally, don't the two kinds of get up timing only lessen the importance of knockdown by allowing you mess up the attacker's timing a bit? Like the decision to have large stages, this seems not to favor offense.

Next is the 2-button throw, a bad idea in fighting games with 2D gameplay. 3D Fighting games are different beasts, so they are excused here, but note that even Dead or Alive offers a macro to turn its 2 button throw into a 1 button throw...and maps that macro to a face button by default. Anyway, 2 button throws solve a non-problem that no one has ever actually had. That's the problem of accidentally throwing and being sad about it. Street Fighter 2, Guilty Gear series, and Street Fighter Alpha 2 all demonstrated that 1 button throws work just fine and don't actually create any problems. Adding a second button press just adds complexity where it's not necessary, and helps nothing. (Edit: it does add a throw whiff which could be a good thing, but simpler is still better...)

Other non-problems we might solve in 2D fighting games would be to make blocking 1 button and jumping 1 button (each are traditionally zero buttons). We certainly could add those button presses, but it would make more sense to reduce the button presses to as few as possible: zero to jump, zero to block, and one to throw.

It's especially unfortunate that Cammy's hooligan throw requires a 2-button throw in the middle to complete it. Why exactly is this necessary, rather than one button?

2 button throws actually introduce the problem of kara-throws, a bug from SF3 that we now have again in SF4. This is when you cancel a forward moving attack a frame or two into it with a throw command in order to greatly extend your throw range. Do the designers want a long throw range or do they not? If they don't kara throws shouldn't be in the game. If they do, then base throw ranges should be extended for all players, not just the ones who input a difficult command.

Another similar bug is the chain combo cancel bug. As an example, consider Sakura. Low short does cancel into special moves. But if you rapid fire the low short (do it 2 or 3 times quickly each one cancels the last) then you CANNOT cancel the last hit into a special. I'm not saying this is a problem at all, necessarily. This restriction is there for good reason: to prevent the game from degenerating into low short -> big damage stuff. It would make more sense to give players a reason to start combos with bigger moves sometimes. Guilty Gear does a great job of this by reducing your entire combo's damage by 20% for each low short. (Hey Guilty Gear players, I know I'm simplifying there.)

Ok so what's the problem, sounds good that you can't do low short, low short, special move, right? But you can do it. If you make the last short a link rather than a chain (do it slowly, but not so slow that it doesn't combo) then you can cancel it into a special move. So really, you can get around this restriction if only you have high dexterity skills. Now, this is also true in ST and SF HD Remix, but that's not so much intent as what we were stuck with. For an entirely new game, I'm surprised to see this still there. I'm even more surprised to see combos that use this in the challenge mode, meaning the developers know about it and accept that low short is really this powerful. SF4 Sakura, for example, can low short, (link), low short, ex shoryken, ultra. She can do a lot more than that, but you get the idea.

This issue of rapid fire moves using a bug to cancel into specials is actually minor compared to the next topic though, a topic that will dominate much of the game: link combos in general. The game is filled with difficult 1-frame links. These are moves that just barely combo into each other with 1/60th of a second timing. In high level play, players will master these and they become common. So Sakura doing low jab, (link), low fierce, short helicopter kick, (link) low short, ex shoryuken, ultra for 50% will be common. One friend of mine already does this combo in real matches after only 2 days of playing, as well as other scarily damaging combos off low short that involve hard links.

Other examples, Ryu can now link low short, low jab, low forward. He can also link low strong, low strong, low roundhouse. Linking is the name of the game, which actually makes the game closer to CvS2 than to 3s or ST. The effect of all these links is to hide the actual game behind an impenetrable wall of execution. If you practice (ie, develop 1p skills unrelated to strategy and unrelated to interaction with the opponent) then you gain access to the real game, a game of high damage off small hits, but only for the dexterous.

Of course some level of this is inherent in just about every fighting game. It's a question of how far to turn the knob towards 1p activities and away from strategy. Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has dexterity requirements of course, but winning tournaments while using zero or very few link combos is entirely possible. That simply isn't the main focus of the game. The existence of many, many new links in SF4 shifts the focus toward that though.

Next up, we have ultras. All I'll really say here is that in real matches I find myself having to pump qcf x 2 over and over looking for the right moment to do the ultra. When I find that moment, I have to complete the qcf x 2 command with PPP. Let's hope I don't press PP in those moments, because that command gives me a super, which is an entirely different move. I'm not sure what qcf x 2 + PPP is doing in a "casual friendly game" in the first place.

Then there's focus canceling. The idea of paying half your meter to cancel a move is taken from Guilty Gear where it was called roman canceling. It's a wonderful mechanic in Guilty Gear, by the way. The command in that game is press any three buttons--I use PPP. This is actually pretty natural because when using a joystick, your right hand's natural resting position is on those PPP buttons usually. In SF4, the roman cancel command is medium punch + medium kick, then tap forward, forward. This is really awkward and a whole lot of inputs for one decision (the decision to roman cancel). I wish I could map this command to PPP or something, rather than having to do button presses AND double taps. There's many combos involving this that you'll need to be able to do to be competitive, so I'm not sure why this ended up requiring so many extraneous inputs.

When I read about the 100/100 scores, I see again and again how "simple and elegant" the game is. Two super meters, a 3-tier focus attack system, and all the complications above seem to fly in the face of that. Even more though, I hear how "casual friendly" it is. This is deeply mysterious and I'm not sure why this so often claimed. Not every game has to be casual friendly, so it would seem more honest to just explain how casual unfriendly all these things are. Qcf x 2 +PPP all the time, extra button presses to throw, extra button presses to roman cancel, and many, many extremely difficult link combos work in concert to create that impenetrable wall of execution between you and the actual game (the interaction between you and your opponent). I wish we could get rid of all this stuff and focus more on the gameplay itself.

Edit: I forgot to mention two more things. First, the unlocks. I'm very surprised to see basic functionality of the multiplayer game--the characters--locked behind tedious 1p tasks. I had to pay a tax of fighting the computer on easiest for long time just to get the core features of the game. (I did this picture-in-picture while watching episodes of Frasier.) I'm fully aware that casual players love unlocks, and that's why non-essential content like costumes, movies, icons, and titles are all perfectly fine to give as rewards for playing 1p content. But the *characters*? This steps on the toes of those wanting to play the multiplayer game by making our first experience with the game a very boring one. I wanted to hire a MMO gold farmer to do this for me.

And the last thing I should have mentioned here is that despite all these many problems, there is fun to be had in the game...

http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/22/a-few-things-about-street-fighter-4.html#comments
Do you agree with his views bearing in mind HD remix was a tournement version of the Street Fighter games?
 

Syphonz

New member
Aug 22, 2008
1,255
0
0
I want to buy HD Remix for PS3, but I don't have a Credit Card. Anyone know another way?
 

willard3

New member
Aug 19, 2008
1,042
0
0
I do. I agree with just about everything he says, except for some of the more technical aspects, especially anything involving canceling. I've never EVER incorporated canceling into any fighting game style, and SF4 basically forces you to do so.

I especially like what he said about the game being filled with 1-frame links. During some of those training exercises, I literally just had to mash the controller in order to get some of the chain combos, and eventually would give up...I did not finish a single character's training, and never even saw tier 5.

The problem with calling it "casual friendly" is that you are saying "if you ignore 75% of what we put into the game, then it's casual friendly." The training exercises clearly indicate that it's NOT user friendly. All the reviews so far are writers wetting themselves with nostalgia and not actually reviewing the game.
 

D_987

New member
Jun 15, 2008
4,839
0
0
Posted by GEL on above site:

Now, as for why it gets claims of being "So Accessible"? That's EASY: Because that's what the magazines were TOLD! To be blunt, most magazines don't have a good fighter reviewer and as such, if it's a big name fighter it gets a good score and if it's a no-name fighter it gets a pretty low one. If Virtua Fighter 5 played EXACTLY the same but was released by a different company with different characters and was named Fightery Fight, it would have been called a "mindless button masher" and scored a 5/10. I guarantee this. Capcom themselves claimed they wanted a more accessible fighter so people merely believed them and regurgitated said "info" because no one in the office really knew what they were talking about. :D

(Sorry, I tend to be really harsh on reviewers. I respect them, I just feel most magazines don't hire people with varied taste anymore and as such only certain game types can get intelligent reviews as for everything else the reviewers just have to "wing it")
I agree with this comment.
 

searanox

New member
Sep 22, 2008
864
0
0
David Sirlin is my god. Okay, not quite - I'm not a fan of fighting games, but he is a very intelligent game designer and I read his site regularly for its highly insightful articles. He knows fighting games back to front, and I get the feeling that if he says it, he is right about it.

The reason the game is billed as being casual-friendly is because a) it will encourage sales b) you can button-mash or use simple moves and still have some success and c) the reviewers don't actually know fighting games nearly as well as they think they do.
 

SuperPartyRobot

New member
Jan 21, 2009
34
0
0
Syphonz said:
I want to buy HD Remix for PS3, but I don't have a Credit Card. Anyone know another way?
You can buy a PSN network card. they work like the xbox live cards. depending on where you live, you can find them at game retailers.
 

Syphonz

New member
Aug 22, 2008
1,255
0
0
SuperPartyRobot said:
Syphonz said:
I want to buy HD Remix for PS3, but I don't have a Credit Card. Anyone know another way?
You can buy a PSN network card. they work like the xbox live cards. depending on where you live, you can find them at game retailers.
Awesome, thanks! :D
 

HokemPokem

New member
Dec 3, 2008
5
0
0
The game is casual friendly. The idea of being casual friendly isn't to make advanced moves easy........ its to make easy moves reasonably effective.

If you hand SF4 to a bunch of guys who aren't avid street fighter players, within an hour they will be playing together, pulling off moves and having a good time. They wont be cancelling and kara throwing but they will be doing basic moves and having a blast without too much instruction.

THAT is what makes it casual friendly..... not how easy/hard it is for average joes to pull of tournament level moves.
 

D_987

New member
Jun 15, 2008
4,839
0
0
HokemPokem said:
The game is casual friendly. The idea of being casual friendly isn't to make advanced moves easy........ its to make easy moves reasonably effective.

If you hand SF4 to a bunch of guys who aren't avid street fighter players, within an hour they will be playing together, pulling off moves and having a good time. They wont be cancelling and kara throwing but they will be doing basic moves and having a blast without too much instruction.

THAT is what makes it casual friendly..... not how easy/hard it is for average joes to pull of tournament level moves.
Capcom did claim the game was about timing, not remembering button-presses, so in that respect he is correct.
 

JaguarWong

New member
Jun 5, 2008
427
0
0
The guy is a cock

He's right about two button throws - the rest is just him being yet another dev/fan who wants all game sto play the same.

In these dark days the common belief is that different = wrong. For someone in the industry to be playing to that audience is bleak news to everyone.

And as for 'casual' friendly? Y'all can just take your 2007 watch-word, fold it til it's all corners, and shove it so far up your arse that you get a spiky adams apple.

Easy to play but hard to master should be the formula for all games - whatever genre.
 

bluerahjah

New member
Mar 5, 2008
314
0
0
HokemPokem said:
The game is casual friendly. The idea of being casual friendly isn't to make advanced moves easy........ its to make easy moves reasonably effective.

If you hand SF4 to a bunch of guys who aren't avid street fighter players, within an hour they will be playing together, pulling off moves and having a good time. They wont be cancelling and kara throwing but they will be doing basic moves and having a blast without too much instruction.

THAT is what makes it casual friendly..... not how easy/hard it is for average joes to pull of tournament level moves.
So pulling off a Super or Ultra Combo is casual friendly? Have you even been able to pull off either of Guile's? I can't for the life of me, and I breathe Street Fighter. There are some parts of this game that truly are casual friendly, and then things like the afore mentioned Supers/Ultras, and the Trials which are just ridiculous.
 

Vesper24503

New member
Feb 25, 2009
6
0
0
bluerahjah said:
HokemPokem said:
The game is casual friendly. The idea of being casual friendly isn't to make advanced moves easy........ its to make easy moves reasonably effective.

If you hand SF4 to a bunch of guys who aren't avid street fighter players, within an hour they will be playing together, pulling off moves and having a good time. They wont be cancelling and kara throwing but they will be doing basic moves and having a blast without too much instruction.

THAT is what makes it casual friendly..... not how easy/hard it is for average joes to pull of tournament level moves.
So pulling off a Super or Ultra Combo is casual friendly? Have you even been able to pull off either of Guile's? I can't for the life of me, and I breathe Street Fighter. There are some parts of this game that truly are casual friendly, and then things like the afore mentioned Supers/Ultras, and the Trials which are just ridiculous.
Guile and Vega's supers have been like that since Street Fighter 2 Turbo, the fact is, they are probably the most effective supers in conjunction with a combo, same as Bison or Chun-Li.
 

Woe Is You

New member
Jul 5, 2008
1,444
0
0
JaguarWong said:
And as for 'casual' friendly? Y'all can just take your 2007 watch-word, fold it til it's all corners, and shove it so far up your arse that you get a spiky adams apple.
To be fair, Capcom are the ones who advertised SF4 as "casual friendly" so Sirlin is merely pointing out that they didn't quite deliver there. He actually has a lot of points I agree with [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.88453.1390170] (though I vastly prefer being able to go for a throw at will instead of it being context-sensitive) and the only thing I find kind of dubious is his motivations for posting such a post.
 

hell4raizer

New member
Feb 20, 2008
54
0
0
i read half of that long ass article and it sounds like nitpicking, which in this non-perfect world is asking too much from developers.
 

Eclectic Dreck

New member
Sep 3, 2008
6,662
0
0
JaguarWong said:
The guy is a cock

He's right about two button throws - the rest is just him being yet another dev/fan who wants all game sto play the same.

In these dark days the common belief is that different = wrong. For someone in the industry to be playing to that audience is bleak news to everyone.

And as for 'casual' friendly? Y'all can just take your 2007 watch-word, fold it til it's all corners, and shove it so far up your arse that you get a spiky adams apple.

Easy to play but hard to master should be the formula for all games - whatever genre.
I tend to agree with his perspective. Most of the challenge in the average fighting games seems to lie in the technical mastery of command input rather than the actual challenge your opponent is supposed to represent. Super Smash Brothers, for all it's fans and detractors, essentially removes this input barrier by ensuring no attack is more complex than pressing a button plus a direction, and in doing so your selection of attacks and timing becomes as important (if not more important) than technical mastery.

This isn't to say that you can't do things in a different way - some people REALLY like the system seen in SF4 and a dozen other games. I prefer games where the interface is not my primary obstacle to overcome. To each their own I guess.
 

ultimatechance

New member
Dec 24, 2008
583
0
0
while i thought SF4 was a fantastic game, this man brings up points that i never would have thought of. If he thinks like this when he plays all games, he should really take up reviewing as a part time job.
 

shadow skill

New member
Oct 12, 2007
2,850
0
0
This is my response to Sirlin that I posted on his site (Which has not shown up yet.):


Sirlin I agree with just about everything you have said though I have not noticed te jump animation thing. I also disagree with the idea that throwing should be one button, I find I have better control over what I want to do. I am planning on getting the TE arcade stick but I have to say that most of these combos are a true PITA. I have to psuedo button mash just to pull off some of the basic ones. The game is built around the arcade stick face button layout and the ability to use at least four fingers to input commands. The problem then becomes that on pads you are all but required to GIVE UP control in order to perform various moves because you run out of buttons to use.

The whole super vs ultra thing is a bit tricky, the simplest solution is to make the button inputs entirely different rather than making it possible to screw up because you missed a punch or a kick button. They don't even need to be "double" commands something as simple as down back forward punch or kick.

Much of the problem in my mind with 2d fighters (not just sf) is that too many of the moves overlap each other! Heck in HDRemix I can perform Balrog's (The Boxer) super move in my sleep, with my eyes closed; however Chun-li and every other character with these charge back-frward, back-forward type super moves gives me problems because they have moves that overlap the super move inputs!

I would echo your opinion on strategy vs executiion/dexterity by using the example of the modern Ninja Gaiden games. There is not a single combo I cannot perform in that game, the game clearly is focused on when to use combos rather than the mere act of using them. Fighting games tend to be the exact opposite as there seems to be a belief amongst the creators of these types of games that execution is the point rather than means to an end.
 

D_987

New member
Jun 15, 2008
4,839
0
0
ultimatechance said:
while i thought SF4 was a fantastic game, this man brings up points that i never would have thought of. If he thinks like this when he plays all games, he should really take up reviewing as a part time job.
Well as a game desginer his job is to think in these terms already.
 

phar

New member
Jan 29, 2009
643
0
0
Yeah good point with the matchmaking and the supers being PP and ultra being PPP.. dont know how many times ive wasted supers for that.

But im putting the game on my bookshelf till I can get a arcade stick.. my fingers are so damn sore using the xbox control.. Like I havent skinned my finger since like mario party on 64
 
Apr 28, 2008
14,634
0
0
yeah, I played SF4 at a friends house, and I didn't have much fun.

Both online and off, I was able to simply button mash and I did pretty decently.

And has anyone else noticed that online, everyone seems to use the same character, Ken or whatever the name was of the guy who looks like Ryu but has blond hair and is in a red outfit.