"Heroics" that left a bad taste in your mouth

[Robot Number V]

I'm surprised I'm not seeing this more often. I definitely nominate Uncharted's Nathan Drake. He has the most punchable face in gaming. Bonus Douche Points for constantly becoming a Chosen-One-esque "hero" simply by the virtue of being the handsomest douche in the room.

 

[Souplex]

Gears of War: It is revealed that the fuel society runs on is actually a living hive-mind organism that can infect living things if given long enough to adapt to them.
The Locust were simply retaliating to it being dumped into their home after failing to peacefully negotiate.

 

[saluraropicrusa]

This is implying Renegade/Paragon was anything other than "black v. white"

I mean, in the first game you have the option to slaughter a colony because renegade shepard just isn't feelin' the whole saving people thing today.

I would contest that Paragon/Renegade is, for the most part, anything BUT "black v. white." The majority of renegade choices aren't about being evil, they're about being kind of a dick but doing so with the ultimate goal of saving everyone. Renegade Shepard doesn't have time for anyone's shit, they want to finish the job in a way that gives them the best possible advantage against their enemy without caring who they have to step on. That's not evil, it's just being an ass about it.

I figured the way renegade Shep would justify their actions on Feros would be to say that they're working to save the ENTIRE GALAXY, so a handful of dead colonists was the least of their worries. It's strange that your teammates just go along with it though.

 

[Astafel]

I'm using a film example but still... Anyone remember that film from about 3 years ago called "Harry Brown"? The things he does in that film to the "chavs" (The almost racial epithet ascribed to this group of lower-class teens) repulsed me. He tortures people and mocks them as he kills them... Granted these people are presented as some of the most repugnant people the human race ever produced but seeing as the film acts like it's almost a social commentary the commentary seems to be saying "You see those teenagers loitering out there? Well go get a big knife and gun and just go to town! They deserve it anyway... They're probably rapists and murderers" I'd also like to point out that similar/worse scenes of violence as seen in films like "A Clockwork Orange" or any Tarantino Film do not bother me. As the violence isn't presented positively it's either ironic/over-the-top/cartoon-like or to show how horrible the villain is. Harry Brown doesn't use the violence as comedy/ironic statement it seems to be supporting violence against "chavs".

Considering the class "difficulties" and the kind of "ghetto" and "sub-people" attitude many British people seem to have adopted to teenagers and especially council-house dwellers, this film comes off as basically immoral because it glorifies this de-humanization. I'd like to point out that this is literally the only film/book/anything I have ever regarded as such that (at least in my experience) no-one really questioned. I can't help but think that if a similar film was made about slaughtering "black" thugs, or "gay" thugs with such reckless "they're all the same" abandon people would be calling for the filmmakers heads.

 

[Saviordd1]

This is implying Renegade/Paragon was anything other than "black v. white"

I mean, in the first game you have the option to slaughter a colony because renegade shepard just isn't feelin' the whole saving people thing today.

I would contest that Paragon/Renegade is, for the most part, anything BUT "black v. white." The majority of renegade choices aren't about being evil, they're about being kind of a dick but doing so with the ultimate goal of saving everyone. Renegade Shepard doesn't have time for anyone's shit, they want to finish the job in a way that gives them the best possible advantage against their enemy without caring who they have to step on. That's not evil, it's just being an ass about it.

I figured the way renegade Shep would justify their actions on Feros would be to say that they're working to save the ENTIRE GALAXY, so a handful of dead colonists was the least of their worries. It's strange that your teammates just go along with it though.

No, that's lazy and evil.

Lets also go down the list of things renegade Shepard has done

*Shot their friends
*Continuously tells their teammates to shut the hell up about their problems
*Punches a reporter
*Kills the leading government for humanities gain
*Gets countless innocents killed cause fuck it
*Leaves a refinery to burn for one mans personal bullshit
*Let one of the greatest warriors in the galaxy commit suicide and then killed her daughter, cause fuck it

and more I've forgotten.

These aren't "Looking at the big picture" these are being evil and lazy. That's what renegade Shepard is, and has been, evil and lazy.

 

[ShindoL Shill]

Corvo can get away with offing plenty of people regardless of their level of involvement; his personal revenge is a pretty thin justification at that point.
I just don't like the ideology that selling your enemy's accomplice to a potential rapist is what's supposed to lead to a happier ending on your part.

Well, his revenge is probably why he's going along with the plan. The low-level mooks he kills, that's defending himself/making sure he doesn't get caught.
And I don't think you're supposed to 'like it'. Corvo is at best a sadist who makes deals with the devil's stand-in like they're going out of style, and, at worst, is a mass-murdering fuckhead.

And really, both endings are 'happy' for Corvo. All he wants to do is rescue Emily and get rid of the people who killed Jessamine.

 

[shadyh8er]

Sometimes the protagonist of a game does something you find distasteful or morally suspect and then just passes it off with a oneliner we're apparently supposed to laugh at.

In Uncharted 2 there's a bit where Nathan goes off with a buddy to get something from a Turkish museum. Drake objects to using guns, to which I thought "Oh, he doesn't want to shoot guards for doing their job. Maybe this guy's alright after all." Nope. Few minutes later he throws a guard to his death, and his buddy even jokes about it.

Drake doesn't kill the guard, if you look down after you pull him off the roof, you can quite clearly see him swimming away. I know this to be true, I checked it out the last time I played through the game.

Phew! I was thinking about this this morning incidentally. Now I can rest easy.

OT: Pretty sure I got ninja'd on this, but it bears repeating; everything Kratos does in the second game onwards. Honestly, I've reached the point where I name Kratos one of my favorite video game villains.

 

[Mikejames]

Well, his revenge is probably why he's going along with the plan. The low-level mooks he kills, that's defending himself/making sure he doesn't get caught.
And I don't think you're supposed to 'like it'. Corvo is at best a sadist who makes deals with the devil's stand-in like they're going out of style, and, at worst, is a mass-murdering fuckhead.

And really, both endings are 'happy' for Corvo. All he wants to do is rescue Emily and get rid of the people who killed Jessamine.

Fair enough. Though it certainly would have helped the whole established motivation and driving the consequences of such actions home if Corvo was actually capable of emotion.

 

[saluraropicrusa]

This is implying Renegade/Paragon was anything other than "black v. white"

I mean, in the first game you have the option to slaughter a colony because renegade shepard just isn't feelin' the whole saving people thing today.

I would contest that Paragon/Renegade is, for the most part, anything BUT "black v. white." The majority of renegade choices aren't about being evil, they're about being kind of a dick but doing so with the ultimate goal of saving everyone. Renegade Shepard doesn't have time for anyone's shit, they want to finish the job in a way that gives them the best possible advantage against their enemy without caring who they have to step on. That's not evil, it's just being an ass about it.

I figured the way renegade Shep would justify their actions on Feros would be to say that they're working to save the ENTIRE GALAXY, so a handful of dead colonists was the least of their worries. It's strange that your teammates just go along with it though.

No, that's lazy and evil.

Lets also go down the list of things renegade Shepard has done

*Shot their friends
*Continuously tells their teammates to shut the hell up about their problems
*Punches a reporter
*Kills the leading government for humanities gain
*Gets countless innocents killed cause fuck it
*Leaves a refinery to burn for one mans personal bullshit
*Let one of the greatest warriors in the galaxy commit suicide and then killed her daughter, cause fuck it

and more I've forgotten.

These aren't "Looking at the big picture" these are being evil and lazy. That's what renegade Shepard is, and has been, evil and lazy.

I never said it wasn't lazy. It very well may be. However, I still don't think Renegade Shepard is evil (though I can't really defend the ME3 renegade path, since it was a shift from "asshole with good intentions" to "complete, idiotic dickwad").

*I don't remember any instance where Shep shot one of their friends without SOME sort of justification
*I'd chalk that up to an attitude of "don't let your problems get in the way of the mission, which is the most important thing right now." That's not evil, it's just insensitive.
*She deserved it. (but even if she didn't, all he did was punch her. She'll get over it)
*It wasn't "for humanity's gain." The choice was save a huge number of human lives, or the lives of three alien council members (who, while important, are still replaceable).
*I can't really form a defence here since I don't know what instance(s) you're referring to.
*This one's iffy, I'll agree. However, I didn't say all of Shep's Renegade decisions weren't black v. white. Only a good chunk of them.
*Again, I can't defend ME3 Shep's Renegade path. They really went overboard with that. I will say, however, at least when it comes to killing the daughter, Shep could argue that it's too dangerous to let an Ardat-Yakshi live, especially given how she could still be turned into a banshee.

 

[demoman_chaos]

First thing to come to mind is fightning Ceaseless Discharge in Dark Souls, since I just killed him yesterday.

You can avoid fighting him if you have high vitality and the Dark Wood Grain Ring, but most people don't know that.

He isn't hostile until you provoke him by either A) Attacking him or B) Taking the suit of armor in his area.

There is an incredibly easy way to kill him in which you lure him out to deep pit, in which he'll jump over it to try and get to you. If you whack his hand enough times, he slips and falls into the pit, supposedly dying. He'll only do this if you've taken the armor.

Spoiler

If you look at the description of the armor, it says it belonged to a Daughter of Chaos, a follower of Lord Gywn and daughter of the Witch of Izalith. Later on after you find a ring that reduced fire damage and lets you run on lava, the description states it was created by the Daughters of Chaos for their brother, whom was born with sores that ooze lava, but that he dropped it.

The Witch of Izalith and several Daughters of Chaos were comsumed when the Witch attempted to recreated the first flame. Ceaseless discharge dropped his ring and eventually became a monster constantly oozing lava. He took solace in the fact that he could guard one of his beloved sisters tombs for the rest of his days. He attempted to jump the pit because you stole his sister's armor.

My friends going crazy, confronting the tragedies of the past, forcing me to kill monsters with good intentions?

Dark Souls is not a happy game.

That makes me almost as sad as having to put the big puppy down. I really wish that there was a way to spare him like the rumors said there was. Seriously, I would do whatever nonsense was required to not have to put the poor critter down.

 

[Saviordd1]

This is implying Renegade/Paragon was anything other than "black v. white"

I mean, in the first game you have the option to slaughter a colony because renegade shepard just isn't feelin' the whole saving people thing today.

I would contest that Paragon/Renegade is, for the most part, anything BUT "black v. white." The majority of renegade choices aren't about being evil, they're about being kind of a dick but doing so with the ultimate goal of saving everyone. Renegade Shepard doesn't have time for anyone's shit, they want to finish the job in a way that gives them the best possible advantage against their enemy without caring who they have to step on. That's not evil, it's just being an ass about it.

I figured the way renegade Shep would justify their actions on Feros would be to say that they're working to save the ENTIRE GALAXY, so a handful of dead colonists was the least of their worries. It's strange that your teammates just go along with it though.

No, that's lazy and evil.

Lets also go down the list of things renegade Shepard has done

*Shot their friends
*Continuously tells their teammates to shut the hell up about their problems
*Punches a reporter
*Kills the leading government for humanities gain
*Gets countless innocents killed cause fuck it
*Leaves a refinery to burn for one mans personal bullshit
*Let one of the greatest warriors in the galaxy commit suicide and then killed her daughter, cause fuck it

and more I've forgotten.

These aren't "Looking at the big picture" these are being evil and lazy. That's what renegade Shepard is, and has been, evil and lazy.

I never said it wasn't lazy. It very well may be. However, I still don't think Renegade Shepard is evil (though I can't really defend the ME3 renegade path, since it was a shift from "asshole with good intentions" to "complete, idiotic dickwad").

*I don't remember any instance where Shep shot one of their friends without SOME sort of justification
*I'd chalk that up to an attitude of "don't let your problems get in the way of the mission, which is the most important thing right now." That's not evil, it's just insensitive.
*She deserved it. (but even if she didn't, all he did was punch her. She'll get over it)
*It wasn't "for humanity's gain." The choice was save a huge number of human lives, or the lives of three alien council members (who, while important, are still replaceable).
*I can't really form a defence here since I don't know what instance(s) you're referring to.
*This one's iffy, I'll agree. However, I didn't say all of Shep's Renegade decisions weren't black v. white. Only a good chunk of them.
*Again, I can't defend ME3 Shep's Renegade path. They really went overboard with that. I will say, however, at least when it comes to killing the daughter, Shep could argue that it's too dangerous to let an Ardat-Yakshi live, especially given how she could still be turned into a banshee.

So basically your defenses are "We don't have 5 seconds to do X." Not exactly heroic, or badass.

Also, the refinery thing is in reference to Zaeed.

And the council thing? Your wrong
Skip to about 0:35

Yeah, and that IS the Renegade response.

 

[Subscriptism]

Moira from Fallout 3 is portrayed as a sympathetic character who cheerfully sends you into a minefield, asks you to get radiation poisoning, and so on. She acts like a cheery cuckoolander, but that woman is a sadistic witch taking advantage of the Vault Dweller's utter naivete.

He's not the Vault Dweller that's the hero of the first game, he's The Lone Wanderer.

OT: Almost everything that Connor says or does in AC3, it just leaves a bad taste because, well, it's so damn sketchy.

 

[saluraropicrusa]

snop

I'm not entirely sure which point(s) you're referring to with the "we don't have five seconds to do X" thing. Could you clarify?

I did respond to the point about the refinery. It's the one I pointed out as being "iffy" (though that might not be a strong enough word for it). That one was dumb. Though I think Renegade is a case of "doing whatever it takes to get the right allies" in the case of the second game. That's not always a good thing.

You can be renegade without choosing that dialog option. Though I agree that it's a case of Shep being an asshole, I still wouldn't call it being "evil." Moments after that response Udina says "the end justifies the means" and I think that sums up Renegade Shepard fairly nicely (the end here being a council that will look out for humanity, and will aid Shepard--though they never actually do).

There are definitely Renegade decisions that aren't just "evil" or even "being a jerk." For example, the choice not to destroy the heretic Geth. If I remember correctly, the Renegade response is to overwrite them. Given the nature of the Geth and everything Legion tells you, this is far from an "evil" decision. I can't and won't defend every single Renegade choice (picking Morinth over Samara is very, very dumb and only makes sense with a very, very Renegade Shep), but I won't concede to Renegade = evil.

 

[Dogstile]

Spoiler

When the guy in Far Cry 3 dumps his girlfriend. I thought she was his rock, the person meant to represent the side of him which was remaining sane? You can't just forget about her for the second half of the game or you're missing out a vital aspect of his story arc, him not knowing what to do about it and keeping himself on the fence.
He says it in such a bland voice, and then when he leaves he's like 'that wasn't as hard as I thought' Well obviously fekkin not if you didn't even feel a thing about it -.-

You might want to put that in spoiler tags, the game is still quite new and its a dick move to spoil things. Anyway, on topic, with the subtitles turned on it turns out he actually said "that was harder than I thought".

 

[mike1921]

Dishonored really screwed up on the good/bad moral dilemma, seeing as the 'good' version of doing things is far, far worse than death. Selling someone into slavery for the rest of their life? Giving up that woman to that stalker dude was fucking creepy. I'd rather just kill her but nooooooooo I had to get the GOOD ending.

Wait wait, I just started the game, and the more moral conclusion essentially entails you becoming a human trafficker?
Those are some bloody terrible implications concerning the writers...

It's less cut and dry than that. The reasons to find the "stalker" creepy are alright but not that strong given the circumstances and the reasons to assume he's a rapist. Also the creepier things he does say are said after you have done the route.

What happens with him is

Spoiler

he knows that she is your target, he says he loves her and will take her away to deal with her if that's the only way to save her, he knows he can't stop you. To my knowledge we are not made aware of how well they know each other.

The good route is certainly the more variable route but it's not as if you just knowingly sold her to a random pimp.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Every God of War game I ever played. Kratos makes for one huge jerk - he can only relate through killing. This guy killed his wife, his daughter, his brother, his mother, his father, his mentor, his friend - not to mention the whole of mankind, quite literally by GoW III. And don't get me started about his "enemies".

 

[redknightalex]

Any time a hero fights fair when the dirty option is available. I'm sorry, if you are in a life or death scenario where innocents are at stake, then sacrificing an advantage that could lead to you losing, and innocent people dying, your bullshit aestetics about, "Honor", which is really just, "Feeling cool", does not matter. Whats even worse is when it is rewarded because of course the hero is going to win.

Disagree completely. Being a hero, with a classical/Campbellian view of things, means you take the fair fight, the hard way out, no matter the costs. Of course, that usually leads to a nice tragedy, but none-the-less what a typical hero would be expected to do. I also don't think that this is what the OP originally intended for an example.

Oh, and honor isn't always about "feeling cool," it can have actual meaning to people and even entire cultures. I'd hardly call it "cool."

But, for my own examples, pretty much anything Conor did outside of the Homestead. I found him to be pleasant, a really decent guy when talking to those he "rescued," but whenever he was out in the world, doing missions/committing revenge, he was a complete arse. Almost an anti-hero and going between the two felt like I was playing two very separate versions of Connor. No sense at all.