"Heroics" that left a bad taste in your mouth

[Krantos]

-meaningless conjecture in the face of evidence-

I'm going to choose to ignore this^ (seriously dude, grow up) and only respond to the video.

Skip to 4:00
Case closed.

Honestly never saw that dialog, and I've had the Renegade ending with the council dying. It's possible to do a renegade run w/o that dialog, and with Shepard giving a different answer (i.e. the reason I quoted in my last post). The question, then, is this:

Since both endings are "Renegade" endings, can we really say the Renegade ending is evil? Or that Shepard "killed" (nested question of "Is letting die = killing?") the council?

You can also have a "Renegade" ending with the council living or a Paragon ending with the council dead. Do we say that only the ending where you chose ALL the renegade options is truly Renegade? If that's true is the reverse true for Paragon? What do we call all the endings in the middle? If you chose ONLY Renegade options up until that question then picked the "Paragon" option, is it no longer a "Renegade" ending?

I'd say the case is far from closed.

 

[Saviordd1]

-meaningless conjecture in the face of evidence-

I'm going to choose to ignore this^ (seriously dude, grow up) and only respond to the video.

Skip to 4:00
Case closed.

Honestly never saw that dialog, and I've had the Renegade ending with the council dying. It's possible to do a renegade run w/o that dialog, and with Shepard giving a different answer (i.e. the reason I quoted in my last post). The question, then, is this:

Since both endings are "Renegade" endings, can we really say the Renegade ending is evil? Or that Shepard "killed" (nested question of "Is letting die = killing?") the council?

You can also have a "Renegade" ending with the council living or a Paragon ending with the council dead. Do we say that only the ending where you chose ALL the renegade options is truly Renegade? If that's true is the reverse true for Paragon? What do we call all the endings in the middle? If you chose ONLY Renegade options up until that question then picked the "Paragon" option, is it no longer a "Renegade" ending?

I'd say the case is far from closed.

In discussion of the Shepards paragon shepard refers to a 100% paragon and renegade shepard refers to a 100% renegade.

If you want to argue the inbetweens it becomes impossible because they are no longer one or the other, they are your shepard; and I can't argue against your shepard.

 

[Siege_TF]

Letting the bad guy live after slaughtering over nine thousa~and of his mooks is always an annoyance.

 

[dylan.mcburnie]

I'm afraid to say this in fear of conforming the already largely hipster/alti opinions that I mostly read on these forums but quite honestly the only character I've ever even slightly liked from any Call of Duty game I've played (good guys, bad guys, extras etc etc) is Ghost from Modern Warfare 2. Every single other character, especially the 'good guys' is just a total douchebag and I've greatly disliked them and playing as them. The actual gameplay has always been fun, the characters are just evil, xenophobic, narcissistic dicks.

 

[lazy villian]

sora from kingdom hearts

every single game aside from kingdom hearts birth by sleep , sora failed, he fails every single time then brushes it off with reakless abandon instead of looking at why he failed and trying to better himself

as far as i am concerned riku has been the main character because he seems to be the one that cleans up all sora's messes, so much so , that sora openly admits it like its a good thing in kingdom hearts DDD , no you twat, better yourself so you can solve your own problems.

someone explained to me, this is because riku was supposed to be the keyblade master in the first place, and i can understand that,maybe the kid is a bit out of his league as riku has proven time and time again that he is clearly better than sora at what he does. but sora has to pull his weight somewhere, it makes me even question why even have sora be a lone main character in some games.

you have done well with main characters that arent exactly happy looking all the time,

just go for it. because i wanna play as the guy who actually gets sh** done in the story

 

[Vuliev]

In discussion of the Shepards paragon shepard refers to a 100% paragon and renegade shepard refers to a 100% renegade.

Nonsense. That's an arbitrary and extremely specific definition that forces a binary choice that doesn't actually exist. The entire point of the series is that there are degrees of sacrifice necessary for the preservation of life, and that the outcomes based on those sacrifices, though each different from the other, are not necessarily more or less "right" than the others.

A Paragon Shepard is one that seeks to save as many lives as possible without sacrificing ultimate victory, choosing to center the burdens and costs of the struggle on himself; a Renegade Shepard is one that views the loss of those lives as necessary to ultimately save countless more in victory, choosing to spread the burdens and costs out into the whole.

 

[Saviordd1]

In discussion of the Shepards paragon shepard refers to a 100% paragon and renegade shepard refers to a 100% renegade.

Nonsense. That's an arbitrary and extremely specific definition that forces a binary choice that doesn't actually exist. The entire point of the series is that there are degrees of sacrifice necessary for the preservation of life, and that the outcomes based on those sacrifices, though each different from the other, are not necessarily more or less "right" than the others.

A Paragon Shepard is one that seeks to save as many lives as possible without sacrificing ultimate victory; a Renegade Shepard is one that views the loss of those lives as necessary to ultimately save countless more in victory.

I never ever said that was how to had to play it.

But in terms of how to argue it you have to put it in binary, otherwise how do you argue since its very easy to say "Well MY Shepard x and y and z."

 

[scorptatious]

Well in Kirby's Dreamland 3:

In one of the levels, in order to get the heart star, you have to help out these mushrooms by stepping on all the red flowers in the level. So basically, Kirby committed genocide in order to help somebody.

Our hero ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Vuliev]

I never ever said that was how to had to play it.

But in terms of how to argue it you have to put it in binary, otherwise how do you argue since its very easy to say "Well MY Shepard x and y and z."

Again, that's nonsense. Read my descriptions of Paragon/Renegade again--notice how I dealt in abstracts, in larger concepts of morality. In point of fact, you're doing the exact thing you're trying to avoid--by forcing this arbitrary, binary choice onto the dialectic, you're forcing us to accept specific phrases, actions, and sequences of events (and, by extension, the fluctuating quality of Bioware's writing) as wholly representative of larger questions of morality and judgment, when they most certainly are not.

Besides, even if we accept those tight restrictions, your arguments about the Renegade path fall prey to (EDIT) Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately described by stupidity." The more egregious actions you listed as "evidence" are, in my view, simply a product of idiocy/shortsightedness that (depending on background, but most likely Earthborn/Ruthless) is itself a product of environment, upbringing, and psychological trauma.

 

[Jopoho]

In Fallout 3, I shoved a live grenade down a guy's pocket and ran away. When I heard the boom, I was horrified to see that the game awarded me karma for my act of heroics. Turns out the person was a slaver. The game just ignored that I also blew up the slaves he was escorting. The whole thing was upsetting from both a humanity standpoint and from the fact that my character couldn't do the whole "evil" thing right.

 

[Saviordd1]

I never ever said that was how to had to play it.

But in terms of how to argue it you have to put it in binary, otherwise how do you argue since its very easy to say "Well MY Shepard x and y and z."

Again, that's nonsense. Read my descriptions of Paragon/Renegade again--notice how I dealt in abstracts, in larger concepts of morality. In point of fact, you're doing the exact thing you're trying to avoid--by forcing this arbitrary, binary choice onto the dialectic, you're forcing us to accept specific phrases, actions, and sequences of events (and, by extension, the fluctuating quality of Bioware's writing) as wholly representative of larger questions of morality and judgment, when they most certainly are not.

Besides, even if we accept those tight restrictions, your arguments about the Renegade path fall prey to Sturgeon's Law: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately described by stupidity." The more egregious actions you listed as "evidence" are, in my view, simply a product of idiocy/shortsightedness that (depending on background, but most likely Earthborn/Ruthless) is itself a product of environment, upbringing, and psychological trauma.

OR
and this is just a theory of course
Your giving Bioware way to much credit.

As much as I love Bioware's writing they aren't exactly...flexible. They deal in black and white with sometimes shades of grey if they can stomach it.

The choices are binary to fuel a romanticized space opera, your either a good shepard, a good shepard with dickish moments, a bad shepard, or a bad shepard with nice moments.

You want to ask big questions about morality and heroism go play Spec Ops: The Line, Bioshock, or go fucking read Dostoyevsky. For all that Bioware does well exploring the greater concepts of morality is not one of them.

Hell, you need look no further than Mass Effects own descriptions; which paint Paragon as "The ultimate hero" and Renegade as "The ultimate badass"

This isn't a philosophical journey, this is a space opera with fun characters and giant evil space shrimp. Your barking up the wrong tree and giving monkeys like Casey Hudson or far to much credit.

 

[spartan231490]

Alpha Protocol has you do a lot of shady things but what stuck with me was framing a guy as a convicted pedophile to get ahead. This wasn't even optional far as I could tell. Sure the man was working for The Evil PMC but for all we know he was some ignorant lackey.

That part is optional. If I remember correctly, you have to hack the hotel security computer to post his identity on the watch list. I never felt too bad about that since I figured the police would sooner or later figure out the database was hacked.

EDIT: I checked youtube and that is optional. Framing the Halbech employee gets rid of 2 of the 4 men who are guarding the elevator that you have to take, making it much easier to sneak by. However, it is still possible to take out all 4 guards without raising an alarm.

Sometimes the protagonist of a game does something you find distasteful or morally suspect and then just passes it off with a oneliner we're apparently supposed to laugh at.

In Uncharted 2 there's a bit where Nathan goes off with a buddy to get something from a Turkish museum. Drake objects to using guns, to which I thought "Oh, he doesn't want to shoot guards for doing their job. Maybe this guy's alright after all." Nope. Few minutes later he throws a guard to his death, and his buddy even jokes about it.

Alpha Protocol has you do a lot of shady things but what stuck with me was framing a guy as a convicted pedophile to get ahead. This wasn't even optional far as I could tell. Sure the man was working for The Evil PMC but for all we know he was some ignorant lackey.

Before anyone mentions Spec Ops: The Line, that one's *supposed* to upset you. Games where doing evil things is optional don't really count either.

TLDR; Ever looked at a protagonist the game portrays as a hero and said to your self: "what a prick"?

I never felt bad about it cuz you're not actually framing him for it, you're either putting him on the registry list or you're just tricking the hotel into thinking that he is. As soon as he finds out he can get it undone, it really only ruins a few days of his life, not the whole life.

 

[soren7550]

In Fable 3 there is a quest where a man/woman wants a divorce and wants you to seduce their wife/husband and propose to them, so that they can divorce them.

The good thing to do is to go ahead with their plan. My problem is, you're tricking someone to fall in love with you. Granted, after they fall in love with you, they ask you to kill their husband/wife so that the two of you can get married, but still.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Every God of War game I ever played. Kratos makes for one huge jerk - he can only relate through killing. This guy killed his wife, his daughter, his brother, his mother, his father, his mentor, his friend - not to mention the whole of mankind, quite literally by GoW III. And don't get me started about his "enemies".

I don't think you've played Ghost Of Sparta, he doesn't kill his brother.

Indeed he doesn't, he Loses His Brother To Death Incarnate Twice. I don't think that changes the point of my post, though it does break down the rhythm.

 

['Record Stops.']

I'm just played the beginning monkey island 2 and I've only just finished the largo embargo but I've only just realised Guybrush is a dick.

Spoiler

stealing the cartographers monocle, releasing the alligator, getting the chef sacked and to top it off I've just got an innocent Captain arrested by replacing my picture on the wanted sign with her's. I can't help but wonder how many more live's he's going to screw over to get rich again.

Also is it me or does the Eldar scroll's series contain an uncomfortably large amount of grave robbing, it surprises me that a society that puts so much stake in the favour of the god's and magic, that defiling the tombs of the dead is practically the national sport.

And FTL, there's not a lot of story to go on but all a can tell is that there has been a popular rebellion in which the old regime is on it's last legs and i can't help but wonder, how did the rebellion get so powerful? why do so many people have grievances with the old space government? is it possible that I am playing as the Empire post return of the Jedi?

Well the dead certainly won't NEED their gold, precious weapons, items, rare artifacts, useful magical gems, books, or even food. I feel utterly no shame in tomb raiding, which is probably why I'd be the quickest to die from a rusty razor blade or Mosquito bite if I was a Treasure hunter. Besides, the Draugr are assholes, and they don't deserve to keep that sweet Honed Ancient Nord Sword of Burning...WHY DID I SELL RED EAGLE'S AWESOME SWORD OF BURNING?!
OT: Play a Kirby game. ANY Kirby game. Done. You are effectively the most evil, genocidal, sociopathic "hero" in gaming history. How many thousands upon thousands of sentient beings has Kirby devoured and stole powers from? How many times has he kicked DeDeDe's ass, even if he wasn't responsible for any specific crime? The entire plot of Kirby Squeak Squad, has you going after Mouse thieves, because they stole your cake. And you pretty much tear through their entire forces, killing God knows how many enemies who probably would've stayed out of your way if you had told them what you were doing, and then you beat the crap out of DeDede who Kirby automatically assumed would have his cake, spoilers he didn't, and then you kicked the crap out of Metaknight for a chest he was guarding, again you assumed he had it. He didn't.

 

['Record Stops.']

Well in Kirby's Dreamland 3:

In one of the levels, in order to get the heart star, you have to help out these mushrooms by stepping on all the red flowers in the level. So basically, Kirby committed genocide in order to help somebody.

Our hero ladies and gentlemen.

Isn't that the plot of almost every Kirby game? Case in point, Kirby 64. You are helped by a Waddle Dee. Now think for a good, hard, moment. Waddle Dee's are the enemies most commonly murdered by Kirby next to the Pink fliers(Forgot their name for a sec) Bronto bert's, and you are being helped, willingly, by one. WHAT saint of miniondom, is this one Waddle Dee to put the murders of his friends, family, and fellow kind out of the way to be Kirby's helper? He could've let Kirby die and get crushed by sand in Rock Star, but he saved him. Just think about that.

 

[Vuliev]

OR
and this is just a theory of course
Your giving Bioware way to much credit.

Or--and stay with me on this--you're letting emotion and strawmen get in the way of rationality. To use an old adage, you're refusing to see the forest for the trees. An integral part of RPGs is letting your own mind fill in the gaps, to not take everything presented as adamant fact--and accepting that storywriters aren't perfect helps quite a bit. By no means am I denying that Bioware writing does stupid things on occasion, but I can look past it and glean the intent behind it.

 

[Smeggs]

The COGS in Gears of War are all assholes. Well, humanity, really.

The Locust are the native species while humanity has been slowly raping their once beautiful planet, and yet the COG armies have the gall to call the Locust the invaders.

 

[ArkhamJester]

Well there's a bit in Dragon's Dogma where the main town is getting attacked by this evil cockatrice (AKA the most bullshit enemies in that game) I injured it enough (read: took down ONE of its 7 or so health bars) to make it fly off in pain.

"ARISEN! YOU HAVE SLAIN THE BEAST! HAVE ALL THIS AWESOME SHIT!"

*Cockatrice visibly flies off into the distance*

"Ummm, ok."

That had to be one of the weirdest bugs ever. I felt like such a dick, the entire town was convinced the thing was dead. It had a whole 6 health bars left guys. You saw it fly off in the direction of the lofty tower where all the flying monsters go to lick their wounds right? No? Ok then...

Oh and the main character in Persona 3 is at least of questionable friendliness. No matter how much of a blank slate he is meant to be. I keep meaning to go through P3 again to refresh myself over why I hated that guy so much but then I remember the dreadful party AI and that singlehandedly ruins it. The rest of the story is amazing but I can't stand that guy.

He basically never does any genuine friendly stuff in a game about friendship for the whole 60 hours. The loner archtype can't stand that unchanged in that kind of game

Dude you NEED to play the psp version, you can play as a girl (who is written to be 100X more outgoing and friendly) and you can directly command your party members, plus as a bonus about 90% of the social links are new or have different character dynamics behind them. Bam all your problems solved, unless you don't have a psp or a vita...