Hey Dragon, You Can Have Her: Halo - Combat Evolved

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Muffinthraka

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SavingPrincess said:
Muffinthraka said:
I'm not some kind of Halo fanboy (and I'm definetly not a microsoft fanboy) it was the first console shooter I ever played so maybe I'm biased but I think it was an excelletn game with a great story, Halo 2 wasn't (I've not paled Halo 3).
You fall under the category that I explained in the first part of the review, so I totally understand why you feel the way you do. From that perspective I cannot argue with anything you've said, as if I were in your situation I would likely feel the same way... however Halo was not my first console shooter, or shooter in general. I appreciate that you feel the way you do, and do not fault you for it, but understand there might be a lack of perspective coming into play.
So basically; I completely understand how you feel, but you're wrong. Yes it was the first console game I ever played but I also played it on PC when I moved to uni, I had by this time played many pc shooters (ureal, Quake, Duke Nukem 3d, Half Life, opposing force, etc). If I had disliked the game on pc I would have said so, but I didn't I felt the game was good both on xbox and on pc and my judgement was not based on any bias I had because I had previously played it. I have played games on pc that I have disliked then have played them on consoles and enjoyed them (most recently ffvii, the pc version played badly but then I tried the ps1 version hwich is great). I have a degree in media studies and when reviewing I seperate between the subjective and objective parts (for example I hate horror but understand the value of it).
I am aware that this discussion will never end.
 

SavingPrincess

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Irridium said:
Eh, I agree with you on most of the points. But remember, this was a launch title. And launch titles are rarely ever amazing.

And to try and explain why the multiplayer was so lackluster and din't include online play: Its because Microsoft told Bungie its xbox live service wouldn't be ready at launch, so there was no online system to support an online mode. At that point Bungie was even debating whether or not to even include a multiplayer mode.

If you want the short version, this was Bungie's first console game, and it was a launch title. They went from being a Mac/PC dev to a console dev fairly quickly, and couldn't do everything they wanted to do.

Looking back, yes it was far from perfect, but it was really all that console gamers really had.
There seems to be this school of thought that developer limitations and time crunches should be taken into account for a game's shortcomings. While sometimes it's super interesting to look at the behind the scenes stuff, I don't really go into a game thinking "Okay, I have to forgive them for this and this because of this."

It really doesn't matter WHY the game didn't have online play or that it was Bungie's first console game... it was what it was...

That being said, I do "understand" those aspects of what you're saying... and you're right, given the circumstances and pressure, they did a good job, but looking at the product sans background will usually lead to a different opinion.

It would be like me writing a score for a movie and the academy giving me an award for it because when I wrote it, I was sick, my dog died during the recording sessions and my wife left me during the post-production... You have to look at the piece for its own merits.
 

Soviet Heavy

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Soylent Bacon said:
This is biased garbage.
Just like every other review out there.

Just sayin', but this statement reeks of someone who has a bias of there own.
Hypocrisy much?
 

SavingPrincess

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Soviet Heavy said:
Soylent Bacon said:
This is biased garbage.
Just like every other review out there.

Just sayin', but this statement reeks of someone who has a bias of there own.
Hypocrisy much?
I'm fine with people calling me biased; I am very biased toward good game design and implementation... but it irks me when they fail to tell me why. You also recognized what many people do not... it's a review, an editorial-style one at that... to not expect the expression of opinions in such would seem kind of counter-intuitive... c'est la vie I suppose.

But then again, when I write a review about a game like this, which I expressly point out that it has done quite a bit for/to the gaming industry in the beginning and why, it's only natural that people choose not to read and blast the review as being "garbage" and what not.
 

Liberaliter

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Seems a bit too ranting, but still read well. Hating on Halo is old so I guess these kinds of things don't entertain me anymore.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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SavingPrincess said:
Irridium said:
Eh, I agree with you on most of the points. But remember, this was a launch title. And launch titles are rarely ever amazing.

And to try and explain why the multiplayer was so lackluster and din't include online play: Its because Microsoft told Bungie its xbox live service wouldn't be ready at launch, so there was no online system to support an online mode. At that point Bungie was even debating whether or not to even include a multiplayer mode.

If you want the short version, this was Bungie's first console game, and it was a launch title. They went from being a Mac/PC dev to a console dev fairly quickly, and couldn't do everything they wanted to do.

Looking back, yes it was far from perfect, but it was really all that console gamers really had.
There seems to be this school of thought that developer limitations and time crunches should be taken into account for a game's shortcomings. While sometimes it's super interesting to look at the behind the scenes stuff, I don't really go into a game thinking "Okay, I have to forgive them for this and this because of this."

It really doesn't matter WHY the game didn't have online play or that it was Bungie's first console game... it was what it was...

That being said, I do "understand" those aspects of what you're saying... and you're right, given the circumstances and pressure, they did a good job, but looking at the product sans background will usually lead to a different opinion.

It would be like me writing a score for a movie and the academy giving me an award for it because when I wrote it, I was sick, my dog died during the recording sessions and my wife left me during the post-production... You have to look at the piece for its own merits.
Actually, Knights of the Old Republic comes to mind in this duscussion. The game was buggy, framerate was horrid, and was all around both a technical marvel and mess. Yet in most reviews I've read, both "official" like IGN/Gamespot and "user made", they seem to be dismissive of the technical flaws.

If anything, its pretty interesting.

And I agree, kind of, games should be reviewed for what they are. Its just a shame that that usually isn't the case... Either due to bias or more shady issues.

And about that last part, that is what happens sometimes. Using the Dark Knight as an example, if Heath Ledger didn't die, it wouldn't have been as big as it was. Don't get me wrong, it was a fantastic movie, but it wouldn't have gotten the attention and praise it did.
 

DeleteThisPlease

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Halo was defently not the super-gameing power that people seem to blow it up to be (in my mind anyway).

I mean sure, my very first LAN game that I had ever played was at a Computer Gaming Club and we played Halo, Battlefield 1942, and Starcraft, and I have to say that I liked playing all of them, though I think that was more for the atmosphear of gaming with friends then the games themselves.

On that point, however, Halo did something that I've always thanked it for: it made grenades quick to use, not a gruelingly worthless weapon because you had to switch to it to even try to use it.

So I dunno. A good read there SavingPrincess, don't know how I feel about it all, but intresting to think about in any case.
 

Soviet Heavy

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Jan 22, 2010
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SavingPrincess said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Soylent Bacon said:
This is biased garbage.
Just like every other review out there.

Just sayin', but this statement reeks of someone who has a bias of there own.
Hypocrisy much?
I'm fine with people calling me biased; I am very biased toward good game design and implementation... but it irks me when they fail to tell me why. You also recognized what many people do not... it's a review, an editorial-style one at that... to not expect the expression of opinions in such would seem kind of counter-intuitive... c'est la vie I suppose.

But then again, when I write a review about a game like this, which I expressly point out that it has done quite a bit for/to the gaming industry in the beginning and why, it's only natural that people choose not to read and blast the review as being "garbage" and what not.
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that all reviews are, as he put it "Biased Garbage", but that all reviews contain a bias. I reserve my own judgment for films and games, but that does not mean I bash others opinions. I use reviews to compare, not to take advice.

This review was good. I do enjoy Halo, but the points you make are valid. To me, it is a matter of perspective. When I play Halo, I expect a console FPS experience. Likewise, when I play Half Life 2, I go in with different expectations, and adapt my play style accordingly.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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Hmm.

I don't agree with this on a lot of levels, but since I don't want this response to basically be another whole review, I'll try and take them quickly.

I played Goldeneye, I played Half Life 1, I played Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake and Unreal games before Halo, and I still enjoyed Halo, putting it up there with those other experiences. This may be because instead of getting fixated on an old generation just because it came first, I was still in the process of enjoying games rather than being critical of them. I try to like things I buy, rather than obsessively nit-pick in what seems like an attempt to deliberately break my experience. So I don't agree on perhaps your most fundamental point.

I liked the movement, sure the jump was a sudden leap, but the little extras, like a small slide as you came in to land, and he quite helpful distance and height, both contributed to my liking of the mechanic. Also, the running I felt was alright, sure sometimes the set pieces were huge and you were moving slowly, but it was never slow enough to break the game for me, it felt more like you were heading into unknown territory, knowing something bad was happening. And by delaying the big battles until you arrived, you always felt like the cavalry, no matter how quickly you got there. Besides, at least they also had weapon movement on screen, so it felt like you might actually have been stepping instead of gliding.

Shooting, I'm a little disappointed that you ragged on the pistol. Everyone's ragged on the pistol, it's the thing to do. Bungie ragged on the pistol themselves, yes it was broken, get over it. And also, I've played the thing on all difficulty, and barely ever had to watch my grenade counter, because I didn't need to use them, so I don't know where you got that from.

Why does everyone assume the future will mean more stuff? Surely the ultimate goal of efficiency and design is to streamline things, only one car, which is the best of everything, one assault rifle which is the best an assault rifle can be, one pistol, one shotgun. Sure it's only an opinion and your personal reading, but I liked that they didn't try to bog you down with every gun under the sun. And the Covenant weapons were better at cracking shields, it's just that most people never bothered, but try it on Legendary and the results are fantastic.

Level Design, you're pretty much spot on.

Again, the multiplayer, I don't like multiplayer at all, but then again, I didn't like Unreal, or Quake, or Goldeneye, or in fact any multiplayer game I've ever played in my life, so I won't dwell on that one.

So in short, I disagree for the above reasons, and please, don't include so much hyperbole. '90% of shooters ever' there are so many shooters, and so many of them are crap in every way imaginable that this just made me ignore that one comparison, and until then I'd thought it was a nice way to do it.
 

SavingPrincess

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Irridium said:
Actually, Knights of the Old Republic comes to mind in this duscussion. The game was buggy, framerate was horrid, and was all around both a technical marvel and mess. Yet in most reviews I've read, both "official" like IGN/Gamespot and "user made", they seem to be dismissive of the technical flaws.

If anything, its pretty interesting.

And I agree, kind of, games should be reviewed for what they are. Its just a shame that that usually isn't the case... Either due to bias or more shady issues.

And about that last part, that is what happens sometimes. Using the Dark Knight as an example, if Heath Ledger didn't die, it wouldn't have been as big as it was. Don't get me wrong, it was a fantastic movie, but it wouldn't have gotten the attention and praise it did.
Oh that one's easy. They are judging the game based on what it is... an RPG. What's an RPG? Story, character development, stat progression, battle mechanics, customization... Knights of the Old Republic (save for a potentially exploitable level progression mechanic) has all of that in spades. That's EXACTLY what I tried to do with this... I judged Halo on the mechanics of what it means to be a First-Person Shooter. I don't speak much of the story, I don't speak much of the graphics, I don't speak much of elements that would lie outside of the core of what makes up a First-Person Shooter. What I'm not dismissing is game-design flaws... not frame-rate issues or things of that nature, but I see where you're coming from.

Postmortem respect for artistic works would be under a different category. When viewed as an artists last work, often times praise is applied out of respect... I think the performance in the movie you mentioned COULD have been just as noticed if people actually got to interview him about the inspiration for it during the press circuit.
 

SavingPrincess

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Soviet Heavy said:
Oh, I didn't think you were calling me garbage... I was piggybacking on your point. Sorry! I understand what you mean by "console" FPS experience, but I still had more fun with and thought the developers of Goldeneye 007 and the oft mentioned Timesplitters series were more clever in their "console-yness."
 

wolf thing

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Nov 18, 2009
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ok there you opinions but why did you post a review on an old game, it seems alittle late to point out flaws when the series is on its fith game
 

Daemascus

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Ok we get it, you dont like Halo. If all FPS played the same no one would bother to try diffrent games. And stop living in the past people. Yes System Shock and Golden Eye where good back then but they are old news now. Quit over thinking the games and ENJOY them a little.
 

Soviet Heavy

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SavingPrincess said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Oh, I didn't think you were calling me garbage... I was piggybacking on your point. Sorry! I understand what you mean by "console" FPS experience, but I still had more fun with and thought the developers of Goldeneye 007 and the oft mentioned Timesplitters series were more clever in their "console-yness."
True, those are two of my favourite console FPSs. Timesplitters especially. Best multiplayer ever. Custom mapmaker, and Monkeys with shotguns vs steampunk robots!
 

Soviet Heavy

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wolf thing said:
ok there you opinions but why did you post a review on an old game, it seems alittle late to point out flaws when the series is on its fith game
I disagree. Retrospective reviews are quite refreshing. Its cool to look at how far media has come when you review something from a past era. Its a lot better than trying to read through the couple dozen reviews that come with every new release.
 

SavingPrincess

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MelasZepheos said:
I also ragged on the plasma weapons...

I assume the future means more stuff because the future means more stuff. Do you have any idea how many different assault rifles are currently in production in the world at this moment? The XM8 alone has a modular design that allows you to have four different rifles in one. So to think that in the future, that this "one" assault rifle, especially for how awful it was, would be the only rifle to find out on a battlefield is not just fiction, it's asinine. If you want that kind of suspension of disbelief, you'd best not set it in a world that has an "Earth," because if you're asking me to treat it as fiction, then I'd have to think that the future would send us backward in time when it comes to weapon design. I don't see why this concept is so hard and so many are giving it the ultimate pass.

It's one of the central reasons that critics blasted the Star Wars prequels, as everything set earlier in the time-line seemed more advanced and polished than stuff that appeared later on.

And judging by your icon, do not ever read my Dragon piece on Final Fantasy VIII please.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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SavingPrincess said:
Oh that one's easy. They are judging the game based on what it is... an RPG. What's an RPG? Story, character development, stat progression, battle mechanics, customization... Knights of the Old Republic (save for a potentially exploitable level progression mechanic) has all of that in spades. That's EXACTLY what I tried to do with this... I judged Halo on the mechanics of what it means to be a First-Person Shooter. I don't speak much of the story, I don't speak much of the graphics, I don't speak much of elements that would lie outside of the core of what makes up a First-Person Shooter. What I'm not dismissing is game-design flaws... not frame-rate issues or things of that nature, but I see where you're coming from.

Postmortem respect for artistic works would be under a different category. When viewed as an artists last work, often times praise is applied out of respect... I think the performance in the movie you mentioned COULD have been just as noticed if people actually got to interview him about the inspiration for it during the press circuit.
All right, I see where your coming from.

And postmortem respect for artistic works category, I don't think the movie would have been as big, since it was based off of a comic book character. And comic book movies, while very successful, seem to have a ciertain "stigma" attached to them, causing them to get overlooked/ignored. Since they are based off of comic book characters, it is assumed that they can't have the same impact as other movies. Its not fair, but it is the truth. The same can be said for Sci-Fi and Fantasy movies (well, except for a select few). There are plenty movies in those genre's that got overlooked and yet were miles better than anything else.

I'd go into more detail, but I feel as though I'm derailing, so I'll stop here.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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SavingPrincess said:
MelasZepheos said:
I also ragged on the plasma weapons...

I assume the future means more stuff because the future means more stuff. Do you have any idea how many different assault rifles are currently in production in the world at this moment? The XM8 alone has a modular design that allows you to have four different rifles in one. So to think that in the future, that this "one" assault rifle, especially for how awful it was, would be the only rifle to find out on a battlefield is not just fiction, it's asinine. If you want that kind of suspension of disbelief, you'd best not set it in a world that has an "Earth," because if you're asking me to treat it as fiction, then I'd have to think that the future would send us backward in time when it comes to weapon design. I don't see why this concept is so hard and so many are giving it the ultimate pass.

And judging by your icon, do not ever read my Dragon piece on Final Fantasy VIII please.
I didn't bother with the plasma weapons bit, because it's mostly fair, if a bit inaccurate as to their total uselessness (see my point regarding shield cracking)

The XM8 was cancelled in 2005, as has every weapon designed to replace the M16 assault rifle as America and NATO's primary assault weapon. Of the 8,000,000 M16A2s produced, 90% of them are still in service. The AK-74 (that's not a typo) might be the weapon of the Middle East, but the weapon of the West and China is the M16. For me it would not be a stretch to suggest that in a world where the world is almost entirely united (which is part of the Halo world) this level of standardisation would be extended, especially to the military. The Pillar of Autumn is a United Nations Space Vessel (read, part of their military) and so having only one type of assault rifle is not that unbelievable, especially since there are no other humans to be leaving weapons, and the amount of weaponry was stepped up in sequels (but lets leave that for now.)

I have never read your reviews, I will proceed to do so, since you seem to know what you're talking about most of the time [sub](joke)[/sub]
 

wolf thing

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Soviet Heavy said:
wolf thing said:
ok there you opinions but why did you post a review on an old game, it seems alittle late to point out flaws when the series is on its fith game
I disagree. Retrospective reviews are quite refreshing. Its cool to look at how far media has come when you review something from a past era. Its a lot better than trying to read through the couple dozen reviews that come with every new release.
fair anuf
 

Terramax

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As innovative as it was in some ways, why I really enjoyed it was for its two player co-op. The only other FPS before I can think of where you could do that was Perfect Dark. Playing Halo 1 player though wasn't half the fun.