Generic Gamer said:
Treblaine said:
It is TOTALLY different when it is YOU doing the fighting. You are challenged, you control the pace, you get the rewards, and the choice is always with you what and where to go next.
For example, the film Die Hard doesn't follow John McClain search through every inch of the building, but it does cut right to him characteristically moaning about eating a "Prehistoric Twinkie" for a bit of dialogue between him and Powell then cuts away again to something else.
Well that's actually my main point, I'm not saying gaming generally can't explore this theme but I don't think that Bioshock was effective in part because of it's genre. If you're making an FPS you kind of limit your story pace because you have to have several hours of shooting people, regardless of whether the story benefits. I seem to remember thinking Bioshock worked better as a condemnation of drugs than as an exploration of objectivism since that's where most of the actual problems in the city came from.
My main problem with people calling Bioshock 'deep' is that it's just not. I'm not saying it's complete shit or anything but it's important to kind of realise that it's not the most complex art ever. The bit I'm taking umbrage with is the idea that parents aren't going to understand the story when it's so simple, I mean they're not stupid.
Incidentally, did you quote and reply to me 4 times in the same thread?
I can see you've discussed me a few times too and you seem to think I don't get gaming. I'd respond that my opinion is that a lot of gamers don't get anything else. Bioshock may look mature and complex if you're determined not to judge it against other mediums but since I read a lot and watch a lot of films I don't see why I should have two scales for games and not-games. I have noticed a lot of people on here don't read that much, well books are probably the best medium for delivering a complex story. I don't think we can really say that people can't understand Bioshock when the books they read are hundreds of times more complex, I think than when most non-gamers look at Bioshock they think it's kind of juvenile.
Myself, I think the game's alright, a seven out of ten, an alright shooter with some odd graphical choices and slightly repetitive. I don't, however, think the game is in any way cerebral. It's an FPS with an FPS plot, albeit a good one, but I am acutely aware that the plot is there to drive the shooting. I think that in order to find this game as profound and earth-shattering as some people do I'd have to have never encountered this idea before in other media.
(yes I have quoted you a lot, because you have said a lot of things that have earned scrutiny)
FPS is a presentation style, not a genre. It's like writing from the first person and assuming that is a genre with inescapable tropes.
FPS is NOT a genre. It is a graphical perspective that in some capacity involves guns. That could be ANY genre. And frankly it isn't limited to guns or shooting.
It is simply not true that Bioshock is "several hours of shooting people". Is THAT how you tried to play the game?!? Seriously? Just rush through it without ever stopping shooting every enemy and trying to finish the game as quickly as possible?
90% of the game is exploring, discovering the world and preparing. You seem to categorise Bioshock as if it is just Doom or something. It is a slow methodical game, finding loot, planning and learning. Yes it IS a shooter, but you act as if it is just Modern Warfare 2 or something. Encounters with splicers are frequent but actually quite far apart and brief.
The important thing is it is not "non stop fighting" there is plenty of time to stop and absorb the world.
You are again trivialising and generalising to say the game "worked better as a condemnation of drugs". See splicers are referred to as "like drug addicts" that doesn't mean they are the same as drug addicts nor even allegories for them. It's the closest analogy but that isn't the same thing and in fact directly relates to objectivism.
Drugs are for simple pleasure, ignoring all other aspects of life just to get that hit.
Adam is everything else. Adam makes you beautiful, strong, intelligent, fast and capable of extraordinary even magical feats when used correctly. It's not addiction that stimulates the base of the brain, it is greed for POWER! Adam makes you powerful and master of your universe while drug addicts retreat from and gives up on the real world and any kind of intellectual satisfaction, just to be artificially made happy with chemicals.
Randian philosophy calls for that everyone pursue personal wealth and power as the highest ideal. Surely you picked this up in Ryan's recordings, how he permitted the continued consumption of ADAM as it followed his ideal of people following their selfish needs. That it would somehow balance itself out, the old "self stabilisation" idea.
Ryan and Rand's ideals also said that the only law should be property (property is the only Law Ryan ever believes in) there should be no moral laws against unethical genetic experiments. The idea is that drugs would be totally legal in Rapture but Bioshock goes the complete other way, of those who abuse chemicals to dominate. Presumably all those who shot up heroine didn't stand a chance against the splicers and their greed for more and more power that objectivism did more than permit... it encouraged it.
I never said middle-aged-people-with-no-gaming-experience (parents) couldn't understand the story. I'm saying they couldn't understand THE GAME! If you can't interact with the world then you can't absorb the story. You have to play the game, otherwise it's like a novelization of Caddyshack, it doesn't work. OK, they can understand WHAT happens but it doesn't work. It's like explaining a joke before you tell it. Understanding is not enough,
it's the WAY you tell them.
Name me a novel or movie that is better than Bioshock at exploring similar or equivalent themes. I don't want to hear about some generic Tolkien style fantasy world, or a clichéd futuristic city. I expect something as original as Rapture; a secret underwater art-deco utopia turned dystopia set in 1960's that has been descended into anarchy after the population turn insane taking on a craze of extreme genetic self modification, then manipulated by powerful political forces into civil war.
I can't think of a more original concept. That's what makes Bioshock so hard to describe.
-Elder scrolls: like Lord of the Rings, but
-Gears of War: like Starship Troopers, but
-Deus Ex: like Blade Runner, but
-Mass Effect: Star Wars, but
-Red Faction: Total Recall, but
-Borderlands: Mad Max, but
That's why I say to make splicers less aggressive, make a few of them passive and make them run from you if you're likely to beat them. That way you start off scraping Adam to legitimately survive but end up preying on Splicers as helpless and terrified as you once were, it makes you from an outsider into a part of the situation.
Again, so much depth is glossed over it's extraordinary.
Rapture is not a place where nice people survive, that is the hyper-rational objectivist ideal; it's dog-eat-dog hyper-individualism. The strong survive, the weak are killed, and the charitable are ruthlessly exploited and betrayed. That is the society that Ryan built, that Ayn Rand idealised. She said that altruism was an evil of society and to be selfishness was the highest goal.
This society is driven mad by greed, they fight and die to get more power. And if they die trying, well that's natural selection. They give no sympathy and expect none.
What I meant is that whilst you can see what someone was before they became crazy you always meet them when they're mad, you never see someone lose anything to Adam, it's all backstory and no continuing story.
Did you listen to ANY of the audio recordings? Or did you simply fail to piece together how normal people were and their progression into madness as they followed the objectivist dream? That you can do whatever you like with no restraints?