How do you reason with religious people?

[lacktheknack]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Three things:

1. Wrong forum.
2. Your friend's an idiot.
3. Religion isn't the issue here.

Most religious people are very reasonable (say, for example, me). Of course, it never seems that way, because the unreasonable ones are the ones you remember, and the ones who trumpet how religious they are.

Anyways, if your friend was a reasonable person in general, he still might be religious. If he bothers to look into a single thing they say, he'd realize that he most certainly is NOT the same religion as them. Unless he really is, in which case you have a hateful radical-without-a-clue on your hands.

 

[lacktheknack]

Speaking of Religious Nut Jobs

This has nothing to do with the thread, but I know some people will like this

Well, look what god inspired me to post: (785-273-0325 - Fred W. Phelps Sr., cell phone (785) 272-4135 - Fred Phelps, Jr. (785) 273-0529 - Benjamin Phelps (785) 233-4162 - Phelps Family Law Office (785) 233-0766 - Fax for Phelps Family Law Office Westboro Baptist Church 3701 SW 12th St Topeka, KS 66604 (785) 273-0325

I wouldn't phone those numbers if I were you... you'll get sued.

 

[Nieroshai]

Whenever I have a jehova's witness coming up my front porch, I either put out my sign "No religious Zealots" or I get my gay friend to make out with his boyfriend behind me while they're at the front door.

Clever. I'm still trying to find ways to deter JWs.
I once scared off a pair of Mormon Missionaries when I actually agreed to talk to them and asked them why the first edition of the book of Mormon was dedicated to THE Angel of Light, who appeared in the form of a white Salamander. THE angel of light was Lucifer, and he often appeared in his Cherubim form, a brilliantly white dragonoid as they're described in old texts. Salamander was often used interchangeably with "dragon." They usually leave at this point.


EDIT: this argument actually made one of my friends doubt his religion. He also didn't like women getting the short end of the stick in the whole Celestial Marriage thing.

 

[Nimcha]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

 

[Miken Maniac]

Three things:

1. Wrong forum.
2. Your friend's an idiot.
3. Religion isn't the issue here.

Most religious people are very reasonable (say, for example, me). Of course, it never seems that way, because the unreasonable ones are the ones you remember, and the ones who trumpet how religious they are.

Anyways, if your friend was a reasonable person in general, he still might be religious. If he bothers to look into a single thing they say, he'd realize that he most certainly is NOT the same religion as them. Unless he really is, in which case you have a hateful radical-without-a-clue on your hands.

The above is the best response throughout this entire thread.

There is a difference between "being religious" and being a Christian. I notice a lot of so called atheists on this forum. That's fine and dandy. I'm not going to beat a Bible over your head. That's your choice. I've made mine. Have a good one. I made my choice to accept Jesus as my personal savior and believe he died on the cross for all our sins. The opportunity is there for everyone as a gift. It can not be earned. It can not be purchased.

 

[Chibz]

Congratulation! You are now at the opposite end of the spectrum. Neither of you will make any headway. So you should both end the conversation.

I don't disrespect them. I just don't respect the religion itself. You see, my boy, not all ideas are inheritly equal. Some are distinctly inferior, or less civilized than others.

Just as a note: I was raised christian and thoroughly reject the religious brainwashing I was subjected to.

 

[Nieroshai]

i just say, your belief cannot be proved nor disapproved so you are not right i am not right until the day comes when it can be proved or disapproved.

change topic and whoop te du you have reasoned with a religious person, changes with levels of intelligence and belief though

I wish more people reasoned like you instead of trying to literally prove that there is nothing out there. I am perfectly fine with atheism, agnosticism, and all other religions, but I reserve the right to reasonably believe my case is possible, as I expect you would do as well. There very well might not be anything, but there is no concrete proof of the intangible, nor is there any proof against it.

 

[Hatiras]

Took it down, but it wasnt mine to begin with, but the last thing I need is to be paid a visit from the cops

So its gone

 

[Nieroshai]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

 

[ultimateownage]

The majority of my friends are atheists, and I have a hell of a time reasoning with them. Religion and Atheism are just beliefs, and it's hard to reason with anybody who has a belief. It's how humanity works, double standards- when you say your beliefs they call you out for trying to push your beliefs on to them and when you don't listen to them pushing their beliefs on you they call you narrow minded and ignorant.

 

[Nimcha]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

 

[Ghengis John]

Well, your friend's just an idiot, that doesn't have anything to do with him being religious.

Bravo sir. You said all that had to be said in the first response.

 

[THE M3RCENARY]

I'm a Christian myself.
I tend to keep it to myself unless someone brings it up.

 

[Alphakirby]

Well, your friend's just an idiot, that doesn't have anything to do with him being religious.

Bravo sir. You said all that had to be said in the first response.

^ Both of these. No matter what your religion is,agreeing with the WBC is a bad idea,with all the hate and propaganda the WBC spew on a regular basis,each of them will have an unpleasant surprise when they meet their fates.

 

[9Darksoul6]

To put it simply:
1- Any communicative process needs same core-concepts/axioms/dogmas on both sides. Dialog is a form of communication. In order to fully dialog with an entity, both of you need to admit in the same doctrinal things.
2- Atheists dogmatically believe that God doesn't exist. Christians dogmatically believe that God exists.
3- The existence/non-existence of God is a question chained to so many other concepts that it nearly becomes impossible to dialog with someone who disagrees with you on that point.

R: The only way I see for an Atheist and a Christian to discuss something without being offensive to each other is by either:
a) avoiding any concept chained to "God" (as a concept).
or
b) one embracing the other one's beliefs (even if only on an hypothetical level).

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Does not sound like a religious problem, just a problem with him. I am quite religious my self (Christian if that helps) and I disagree with the WBC completely. Their views are that of the dark ages.

Though it does sound like it is more to do with your friend than "religious people". We aren't all bad, just those extremists and you friend sounds like he has joined the "extremist club".

(sorry if this causes offence)

 

[Nieroshai]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.

 

[Lilani]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

I think it should be noted that the Westboro Baptist Church is frowned upon by just about every single religious organization apart from itself. So to call them "religious people" in the same sense that Methodists, Catholics, non-denominationals, regular Baptists, and every other Christian denomination are "religious people" is like saying that the Islamic Terrorists are the same as regular Muslims.

What they are doing is by no means following the word of God, and frankly I don't consider anything that they do to be religious at all. They're using the name of God to legitimize their blind hatred, which is not acceptable at all. They aren't religious. They're mean and hateful, so much so that they've convinced themselves that their hate is a God-given gift to the world.

So the question here isn't "How do you reason with religious people?" It's "How do you reason with people who spread hate in the name of God?"

 

[Dfskelleton]

I thought a while ago that the vatican officially removed all ties to the WBC with the rest of the religion. Here's where I think I can see your friend's oppinion: Fred Phelps from a glance is an Old Testament prophet. The prophets of the Old Testament foccused more on scaring people and showing the negative things, like "If you sin, oh boy, God is just waiting for you to mess up so he can throw your ass into the pits of hell for all eternity. You hear that? Hmm?", which is wrong. The idea of Christianity is "God loves you all, so go and show this love unto others, as God is always with you." However, the WBC takes this quite a few steps too far. They speak their prejudices and say it's God's will. That isn't good.
These WBC guys are bitter, sickening people who put Christianity in a poor light. I was planning on carrying around a sign that says "Cthulhu hates the WBC" at one point, I just don't know when would be a good time. Anyone else want to join?
ALso, I don't usually bring these things up unless provoked.