How do you reason with religious people?

[Therumancer]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Honestly, it depends on the culture or subculture in question. To be blunt in many cases you CAN'T reason with them by definition. Various cults, and even the whole situation in The Middle East demonstrate the problem here. You can't for example reason women's sufferage to someone who genuinely believes that women should be surpressed because god tells them to (no matter how it's justified).

In general Americans have adapted to the point of being pretty reasonable. To be honest your not nessicarly going to be able to tell what religion someone follows by looking at them, assuming of course the group in question has assimilated to American society. There are of course exceptions, from people who don't assimilate into society, want to cause trouble, or are just part of a paticular subculture that we have difficulty dealing with due to other principles.

When it comes to WBC, I think Anonymous has generally the right attitude in that they have their right to their opinion, as distasteful as it might be. I personally think they can be dealt with within the existing laws, and have been in the past. As time goes on and awareness of them continues, I think they are going to find a lot more opposition from the authorities within the existing body of law. They still make a lot of noise, but I think they have actually been corraled somewhat compared to their previous antics, which is why they are doing things like baiting Anonymous for attention.

In a society like the USA, we're lucky in that you typically don't have to reason with religious nutjobs unless you really want to.

I will say though that one of the whole issues is that especially when dealing with the left wing, it comes down to their way or the highway just as much. If the other side does't come around to what the left wants, then it's being inherantly unreasonable or whatever. I think that's a problem with a lot of these debates. While it has little to do with the WBC, I myself tend to take the side of religions in a lot of political squabbles, especially those on a small scale. For example I personally think that it's ridiculous that the people of a town can't decide to use their own money to put up Christmas decorations in public places like a park or town green when that's what the overwhelming majority of people want, because it offends a tiny group of residents who aren't Christian/against it, or might be travelling through. As someone who has seen traditions like town tree lighting ceremonies attacked, I have strong feelings on the subject, especially when it's part of the community, and something that in many cases might have been going on before there was even a United States. "OMG, the mayor can't light a star on top of a tree in the town square even if the mayor has been doing that for 300 years, that's religious symbolism and it offends me!". Then people wonder why the US has so little in the way of traditions or our own culture especially nowadays.

 

[starwarsgeek]

In your example, I'd point out to your friend that while the WBC believes in God, they make no effort to immitate Christ. I don't even consider them to be Christian.

In general, in any large group of people you'll find some that cannot be reasoned with. Don't let this affect your viewpoint of religious people as a whole.

 

[LostTimeLady]

I wasn't sure what the WBC was when I read this thread, so I looked it up... And I'm genuinely scared by what I've read.
As a Christian myself I would say that the WBC is at best misguided, at worst using the Good News of Christ as a smoke screen to attack many different communities and faiths.

If your friend couldn't give you a stright answer it was probably because he thought you were accusing him of being like the WBC, where as I suspect you where hoping he's say he's not.

You can reason with Christians and religious people in general. It's people with blind faith you can't reason with. Blind faith in anything in fact is a path to people being unreasonable as a person of blind faith hasn't personally reasoned out why they believe that thing so when they are confronted with questions they have no answer because they haven't go through the steps of logic that lead reasoned conclusions.

I have thought through things reasonably and thoroughly and then I came to the conclusion that there is a God et al.

Dear goodness... I'm actually scared that the WBC exists... very very scared.

 

[The Austin]

WBC and anyone who supports them are NOT religious, they're simply fucking morons.

And reasoning with fucking morons is futile.

This post is essentially the complete and undeniable truth.

There is no doubt.

 

[Brainpalm]

Some Religious people behave much like "fanboys". They see/hear any statement against their P.O.V. (even if it's just a statement "for" the other P.O.V.) they will take offense or start a fight over it, and ignore every single piece of evidence/reason/crap the other party says, ignore tough questions and normally repeat the same points over and over.

In my opinion, everyone should keep their faith to themselves, and just quit fighting. Their fights obviously have no possible victor, since it's more a matter of opinion or belief, and no one is going to change their beliefs due to one small fight. Just accept that you both believe different things, no matter how strongly you believe the other person is "wrong". It really doesn't matter.

The next time one of these religious/fanboy fights starts, be a man and walk away/don't join in.

 

[Togs]

you can't, theists have a massive blindside when it comes to their faith- no matter how intelligent or educated the person may be, point out any of the logical holes and they will act like a petulant child

In my experience the best bet is to not, bite your tongue and change the subject- its not worth the hassle.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I'm pretty sure your friend is not a prime example of most religious people... without wishing to be overly insulting at best he is misguided and at worst he's, well, bigoted.

To answer your question, in cases such as these, you just can't. I'm not religious myself but my family have a lot of history with the violence in Northern Ireland, which has helped me understand more than anything that when someone has been taught to hate before they've even learned to walk and talk there's just no way you can bring them back. Their lives are defined by it so they will cling on to it no matter what you say.

 

[Polyintrinsic]

See, the main flaw with talking to really religious people is that they don't believe in fact. Their whole belief system is based on something that they have been told to believe in, and not something that has evidence supporting it. When a logical person tries to bring facts into an argument against a religious person they don't understand its usefulness or purpose because its not relevant.

Usually they tend to get angry because in the argument you are trying to get them to see another side of a story, to get them to look beyond what they know, to push their boundaries of thought. For religious people this is very scary, therefore they react with anger. Religious people have been told what to believe their whole life, you can't just force them to think independantly because its like sheep without their shepard, they get lost and scared.Free or inspirational thought is something the church likes to suppress as much as possible, so trying to get an indocrinated person to think for themselves, to look for facts, or to challenge their beliefs is near impossible.

Disclaimer: This is just my experience in dealing with religious poeple. If you take offence to this post and are not a religious person, then I am sorry just ignore my post. If you take offense and are a religious person, I won't bother debating with you for reasons stated above.

I find that last paragraph interesting. You basically just equated religion with anti-intellectualism, and you don't want anyone to challenge you on it. Your perception of all religious people is conveniently such that you claim it wouldn't be worth discussing it with them. Good job remaining comfortable in your lack of understanding! *sarcastic thumbs up*

Look, you don't need to debate with someone about it, you just need to understand that you're generalizing here, and the resulting ideas are wrong. Some religious people have issues with that, true. But the amount is becoming less and less. Reason being, we live in a culture that is increasingly hostile toward religion; it's "tolerated" in the actual meaning of the word, but generally made fun of in our culture based on sweeping generalizations like the ones you made here. Anyone growing up with, or accepting later in life, a given religion goes through a period in his/her life where they have to step back and take a serious look at what they believe and decide whether they actually believe it for themselves. Faith does play a role in a religion, but rarely does it take an all-important one. You don't have to agree with any given religion if you don't want to, but to essentially say that anyone who believes in a given religion is against logical thought is more than a little much, and more than a little ignorant.

I agree with you that I was generalizing. And that my tone came off as ignorant. And that not all religious people are the same. Though, it's hard to remind one's self that organized religion has a place in the world when there are nutjobs like WBC taking up the airwaves. That lady's (the one in the anon vs WBC interview) pompous grin alone, makes me scared for humanity.

 

[Caligulove]

Most of the time I don't since the only one that loudly takes issue with something or one of my opinions is anything but a reasonable person and are too arrogant and stubborn to ever change their way of thinking simply from someone having an argument. They go into the argument knowing they're right no matter what and that any "so-called evidence" that their godless opponent can come up with was arrived at without considering God so therefore is not valid.

There are religious people who think there is no such thing as an Atheist, because to them they've been told their whole lives that everyone is made by God and any human that doesn't believe is actively choosing not to reject God. It's not a matter of accepting their lack of God or understanding their reasoning, just either bullying or passive aggressively wondering when they'll "return to God"

It's an endless cycle and there's really no point to it. I suppose you could see who can shout longer, but that would probably result in the religious person lashing out violently to prove how peaceful their religion is by beating its tenants into your head.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

OK, seriously? You don't.
Now, I mean no offense to people's beliefs here, but the very definition of 'faith' is believing something irrespective of evidence.

How can you reason with anyone that takes that as their starting position? It's not possible.

If I imply the bible isn't necessarily true, I'm already 'attacking' their beliefs, and thus in their mind am wrong by default.

How can you ever reason with anyone that views anything that contradicts their beliefs (no matter if those beliefs are true, or utterly misguided) as inherently wrong (or even evil)?

It can't be done. It depends entirely on the person you are talking to being somewhat flexible in their beliefs, or at least tolerant of alternative perspectives on things.
You can't have a debate on a subject where the answer is a foregone conclusion. (Incedentally, this applies to scientists that blindly believe certain theories as much as it does to religions. Wherever any idea becomes unquestionably 'true', all debate ends.)

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

How old is your friend? It sounds like 14 year old arguing about his favorite game. Expose him to the WBC and if he still sides with them...I feel sorry for you.

 

[Section Crow]

i just say, your belief cannot be proved nor disapproved so you are not right i am not right until the day comes when it can be proved or disapproved.

change topic and whoop te du you have reasoned with a religious person, changes with levels of intelligence and belief though

 

[alimarin]

If the Westboro Baptist Church ever come to my city, I would bring a bible and read scripture to them in which they are blatantly disobeying, even though I am agnostic. The irony in this would be so much that their ignorant heads would explode. Their perception that god hates sinners in the first place is wrong, because first, he treats any and all sin equally. Second, god IS love, and that one has multiple verses that repeat 'GOD IS LOVE' so much, that they're triple as idiotic.

 

[Mikkaddo]

you can't reason with someone who believes you to be ultimately wrong.

Look at it like this, imagine you got up one day, knowing that you're a man . . . having know this for the however many years you've been alive . . . and someone came up to you and said you were a woman . . . you know it's not true, but they say so regardless. Never admitting that you're a man . . .

that's how he seems to react to this. The fact is, he believes it so very strongly that nothing will make him "see the light" or lack there of. If a person believes it strongly enough anything you say otherwise is a lie to them.

 

[Antidrall]

Whenever I have a jehova's witness coming up my front porch, I either put out my sign "No religious Zealots" or I get my gay friend to make out with his boyfriend behind me while they're at the front door.

 

[Lord Honk]

Politicians and religious people I don't try to reason with. You might get lucky and catch the odd one who isn't predetermined and overly biased, but from personal experience, those are rare. Worst case are the "Yes, because yes" types, where evidence of their wrongness is so solid you'd like to bludgeon them with it and they still stand firm by what nonsense they're talking.

I'd just rather not try and engage in a fight I'm gonna lose, through attrition most likely xD

 

[Jim-a-Lim]

I am a christian, meaning I have a relationship that is based upon commiting my life to Jesus because he died for me, but that means I spend time with him and talk to him in order to centre my life around him. I find that this means I am happy to respect what others believe and I honestly have more friends who are gay/hindu/muslim and all other sorts than I do in the church. I do also find alot of people who brand themselves with the "christian" label don't share that same personal thing that I have with God, and I leave that to open interpretation cause honestly? Fair play to them too.

KEY POINT: It's just you'll find alot of people get quickly offended when they feel they are being questioned, and that includes their beliefs regardless of whether or not they are religious ones.

 

[Jim-a-Lim]

If the Westboro Baptist Church ever come to my city, I would bring a bible and read scripture to them in which they are blatantly disobeying, even though I am agnostic. The irony in this would be so much that their ignorant heads would explode. Their perception that god hates sinners in the first place is wrong, because first, he treats any and all sin equally. Second, god IS love, and that one has multiple verses that repeat 'GOD IS LOVE' so much, that they're triple as idiotic.

Gold star for a christian (me ) - arguement well constructed and exactly on the money.

 

[Nieroshai]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Here's my nondenominational Protestant perspective: I wish WBC would shut the hell up, but I believe in their right to speak freely. I don't see them as true Christians because they forsake Jesus' teachings in favor of the Hebrew laws as well as a few they seem to have made up themselves. I don't know what's up with your friend, but most of the Christians I've ever met facepalm every time WBC is mentioned.
You will also find I am very easily reasoned with, mostly because I'm a philosopher at heart.

 

[Chibz]

I tell them that I'm not religious, but I respect their beliefs. I do act surprised whenever I meet someone religious (like when I found out two of my uni friends go to church - I've not had friends who did that).

How do I respond if I DON'T respect their religion?