How do you reason with religious people?

[spartan231490]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

If I said "yes", how would you respond?

I would say that we are all entitled to our ideas of what is "wrong" and "right." By the logic of the bible, your saying "yes" would be correct. But I would also question the legitimacy and accuracy of a bible that damns almost all human beings for a natural, god-given human instinct (that is, prejudice).

I could have the wrong wording here, but if I don't, you're refering to "judge not, lest ye be judged." Or maybe, "may he without sin be the first to condemn" With the first one, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't judge people, it just means(IMO) that you shouldn't judge people unless you are ready to be judged in return. Also, not sure if it's a sin at all or just advice, but it's definitely not a damning offense.
With the second one, judging someone is not necessarily condemning someone, you can judge someone without condemning them.

 

[lacktheknack]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

If I said "yes", how would you respond?

I would say that we are all entitled to our ideas of what is "wrong" and "right." By the logic of the bible, your saying "yes" would be correct. But I would also question the legitimacy and accuracy of a bible that damns almost all human beings for a natural, god-given human instinct (that is, prejudice).

I doesn't damn people for prejudice. Where'd you get that?

No, I never said that you said that. I'm saying that the bible damns people for prejudice. Or maybe it punishes people in a lesser way; I don't know exactly how it works.

What the heck, I typed that out wrong.

I meant the BIBLE doesn't damn people for prejudice. If anything, the Jews were an EXTREMELY prejudiced group. Whoever told you it does is wrong.

Of course, it is covered by "love thy neighbor as thyself", but it's not referenced as an explicit sin.

 

[SIXVI06-M]

You don't. Most of the time they don't see reason .

Jokes aside - depends on why you are trying to reason with them.

If you're just trying to 'indoctrinate' them into YOUR way of thinking - then I believe you're doing it wrong already.

It's called a 'faith' for a reason. Let them have their cookie while you have yours. Unless they are being imposing; better to ignore, but if you feel like being a dick, then the balls' in your court.

 

[spartan231490]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

Just to weigh in, I'm not in the least religious any more, I was Catholic schooled, which really helped me see everything wrong with indoctrinating children. Still, to reconcile a God's lack of action in a world full of evil it began to make sense that if there were such a God, and he wanted all of his creations to have free will and develop and grow, he simply mustn't interfere with the good or the evil we perpetrate, until such time as we are judged. Which kinda makes God more of an impartial scientist type, watching over his experiment and taking notes.

Don't forget to take into account the saying 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'; if there is a god how can he decide upon what is good and what is evil. These concepts are dependant upon the viewpoint one takes upon them. "To someone who is of a lawful-good alignment, even acting true neutral can feel like chaotic-evil".

a god can determine good and evil for two reasons:
1) he created everything so in any difference of opinion, he wins by default
2) Good and evil are not that subjective. Killing a kitten may bring enjoyment to the psychopath who does it, that doesn't make it good. That's what I believe anyway. Even with less extreme examples, If what one person does is wrong(good), if a different person does the same thing for different reasons it could be right(good). Not because the person sees the world differently, but because their reasons, intent, and goals are different. If I steal a chicken from the grocery store, I'm in the wrong, but if someone who can't afford food for their children does it, they are in the right. Not because they see the world differently, but because they are avoiding the evil of death.

 

[FalloutJack]

I'm Catholic, philosophical, and open-minded. What problem?

 

[spartan231490]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

If he is able, but not willing, then he isn't malevolent, because to do so he would have to destroy free will, and that is the ultimate evil. He gave us the ability to tell right and wrong and the ability to find evil-doers so we could protect ourselves from evil, preserving our free will.
Also, without evil, good cannot exist. A world in which no evil was ever done, would be very boring, even if you were somehow the only person with free will to decide(if people have free will than they can choose to do evil and therefore the possibility of evil exists).
Therefore, the existence of evil does not preclude the existence of a benevolent creator, but in fact, a benevolent creator has no choice but to create the potential for evil.

 

[Gentleman_Reptile]

Religion is like your penis. Dont wave it around in public like your proud of it and dont shove it down childrens throats.

 

[Syntax Error]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Simple answer: you can't. That's why I tend to distance myself from those kinds of debates. Anything you say will be twisted according to fit their "point" which depends highly on their interpretation on the word of the lord.

 

[Feste the Jester]

Depends. I tend to consider myself a believer, but I can't stand the overly preachy people who try and tell me all about their faith and why their right. Dealing with intelligible religious people is great. Meeting the other kind annoys and embarrasses me to know I often share a faith with them.

 

[SIXVI06-M]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

You could always just call him out on being so terribly defensive - and thus, he's not posing much of an argument if he's getting a tad emotional.

Sounds like he's had enough of SOMETHING though - possibility that his religion's been getting knocked a bit much? hmmm - it's up to you to determine whether it is worth it to tread on his toes any more on this matter or not.

 

[Reincarnatedwolfgod]

some people are to stubborn that no matter how much you argue it will never change the belief
basically you might as well not even try.
not all religious people are this way but the ones who are seem to become complete asswipes when disusing religion. if your smart try to avoid the topic when dealing with this guy

 

[Samus Aaron]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

If I said "yes", how would you respond?

I would say that we are all entitled to our ideas of what is "wrong" and "right." By the logic of the bible, your saying "yes" would be correct. But I would also question the legitimacy and accuracy of a bible that damns almost all human beings for a natural, god-given human instinct (that is, prejudice).

I doesn't damn people for prejudice. Where'd you get that?

No, I never said that you said that. I'm saying that the bible damns people for prejudice. Or maybe it punishes people in a lesser way; I don't know exactly how it works.

What the heck, I typed that out wrong.

I meant the BIBLE doesn't damn people for prejudice. If anything, the Jews were an EXTREMELY prejudiced group. Whoever told you it does is wrong.

Of course, it is covered by "love thy neighbor as thyself", but it's not referenced as an explicit sin.

Well, whatever then. I'm hardly an expert on the bible. Besides, sometimes I can't tell when the bible is an advice book and when it is a strict book of rules. The fact that it's so subjective makes me somewhat skeptical of people who use the bible to give backing to their beliefs. Anyway, I'm straying from my original point, which was that (almost) all people judge each other, and thus saying that the WBC is "wrong" because they judge means that all people are "wrong".

 

[TerranReaper]

While I'm not religious (What's the term for someone that doesn't give a shit?), I can honestly care less if someone believed in some omnipotent figure that magically gave life to everything. It's their life, and they can believe what they want, as long as they aren't some kind of extremists that tries to convert people or attacks people based on their belief.

Not all religious people are extremists and unreasonable, which is one thing that a lot of people that are supposedly atheists fail to grasp. Especially here, a lot of posts here seem to lump religious fanatics and people who just believe in that religion in one group. It just highly hypocritical on how some (key word on some, meaning NOT ALL) atheists are more than willing to go out of their way to bash religions and are completely unreasonable in respecting other beliefs. Of course, if they believe in something that involves something like persecuting homosexuality or anything that is extreme, then they deserve whatever is coming to them.

 

[BanthaFodder]

it's not that you need to learn how to reason with RELIGIOUS people, you have to learn how to deal with IGNORANT people. I'm fairly religious, and even I know that the WBBC is a frigging cult.
it's funny, I was talking to two friends (who are atheists) about faith. I explained that I was Catolic because I was raised Catholic and I felt we all needed something to believe in. my explaination was met with coious eye rolling. ironic, no?

but yeah, don't let his actions speak for all religious people. it's not that he's religious, he just doesn't know what the WBBC is. and if he DOES, than he's just bat-scat-demented

 

[Hairetos]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

Just to weigh in, I'm not in the least religious any more, I was Catholic schooled, which really helped me see everything wrong with indoctrinating children. Still, to reconcile a God's lack of action in a world full of evil it began to make sense that if there were such a God, and he wanted all of his creations to have free will and develop and grow, he simply mustn't interfere with the good or the evil we perpetrate, until such time as we are judged. Which kinda makes God more of an impartial scientist type, watching over his experiment and taking notes.

I don't worship impartial scientists.

 

[InnerRebellion]

You need a new friend. If he agrees with WBC just because of their association with the religion, he's not a bright fellow.


I ignore religious people for the most part. Sometimes I get fed up with the zealots who think stuff like, "Evolution means monkeys turn into people!" and the like, but most religious people are just off my radar. However, the zealots I mentioned... they suffer my very angry wrath.