Hypocrisy, thy name be Wal*Mart (Selling ex-gay kid's book)

[Krion_Vark]

I bought an exorcism book at walmart. It literally contains prayers supposed to drive out demons, thoughts of pedophilia, and a bunch of other stuff. I was laughing so hard when I saw I just had to get it.

Were the prayers in Latin because if not then you bought a complete and total scam.

Of course it was a scam, and not in the I'm not Christian everything involving it is a scam sort of way, although I'm not Christian. And no, it wasn't in latin. It was in Spanish, dun dun dun! No, it was in English.

Spoiler: Complete contradiction of what I just said kinda

The book is extremely pagan. Chanting a prayer(Spell) to protect yourself against forces of darkness(magic).

I don't know where it is I was looking for it cause I wanted to post one of the prayers.

First I was being sarcastic if you didn't notice that.
Second most of Christian Beliefs are taken from Paganism. But even Paganism took their stuff from other things.
But if you actually do go into the supernatural stuff in order to exorcise demons if they actually existed according to lore is that you have to chant it in Latin or the origin language which is older than Latin. Most people go with Latin since no one knows the Origin language.

 

[2fish]

I still don't get this notion that you go gay simply by looking at gay porn or whatever. If your sexuality is that malleable, maybe the problem isn't the porn.

The real problem is that we must start showing all children porn so that they know how it is supposed to work, I mean I must argue in the same logic that the book sounds like it uses. So if you "learn to be gay" why not make a porn class for 8 year olds and on "teaching them to be straight".

1. This would freak out the parents. Great!
2. I would have loved this in puberty. Wonderful!
3. This idea is just as stupid as the book so it might sell. COOL!

As much as I would like to say just ban the book I won't as that is the argument they use against us. Let them be the biggots and we will be the accpeting figure, kinda like that one guy... Christ but when it comes to books, movies, video games ect. They are all my children, and I will die to protect them.

 

[mr_rubino]

I bought an exorcism book at walmart. It literally contains prayers supposed to drive out demons, thoughts of pedophilia, and a bunch of other stuff. I was laughing so hard when I saw I just had to get it.

Were the prayers in Latin because if not then you bought a complete and total scam.

Of course it was a scam, and not in the I'm not Christian everything involving it is a scam sort of way, although I'm not Christian. And no, it wasn't in latin. It was in Spanish, dun dun dun! No, it was in English.

Spoiler: Complete contradiction of what I just said kinda

The book is extremely pagan. Chanting a prayer(Spell) to protect yourself against forces of darkness(magic).

I don't know where it is I was looking for it cause I wanted to post one of the prayers.

First I was being sarcastic if you didn't notice that.
Second most of Christian Beliefs are taken from Paganism. But even Paganism took their stuff from other things.
But if you actually do go into the supernatural stuff in order to exorcise demons if they actually existed according to lore is that you have to chant it in Latin or the origin language which is older than Latin. Most people go with Latin since no one knows the Origin language.

Yeah, the demons are pretty accommodating like that.

 

[Throwitawaynow]

First I was being sarcastic if you didn't notice that.
Second most of Christian Beliefs are taken from Paganism. But even Paganism took their stuff from other things.
But if you actually do go into the supernatural stuff in order to exorcise demons if they actually existed according to lore is that you have to chant it in Latin or the origin language which is older than Latin. Most people go with Latin since no one knows the Origin language.

First I know, when you respond seriously to sarcasm it's funnier for both of us. Second I know, most holidays and symbols taken from pagan belief systems as a way of hiding. And third? you didnt say third but I wanna say third, of course Paganism took from other things migration and belief evolution you're not gonna completely change= ). Greek to Roman even modern pagans take aspects from almost every religion in the world. If demons did exist, why trap themselves in flesh and become extremely apparent to everyone to be exorcised = P. Enochian ftw, was that what you were refering to? Not the actual Enochian made up stuff but the figurative. Shouldn't it be Hebrew if they are going for farthest back? Probably harder to master if the bar mitzvah sketches are any indication = P.

 

[RicoADF]

More than 100 Walmart stores are selling a book for kids and parents that suggests gay people can overcome ?sin? and convert to heterosexuality with the help of counseling, according to Q Salt Lake.

Chased by an Elephant: The Gospel Truth About Today?s Stampeding Sexuality is written by Janice Barrett Graham, whose husband, Stephen, runs the antigay group Standard of Liberty.

In the book?s introduction Graham says she wrote the book to ?help shed the clear light of truth on today?s dark and tangled ideas about male and female, proper gender roles, the law of chastity, and the God-given sexual appetite.?

Graham?s son Andrew claims he successfully changed his sexual orientation and is now a happily married man. In his book Captain of My Soul, Andrew Graham writes that he was ?lured into same gender internet pornography during his high school years, and recruited into cursory homosexual experimentation with older men while at Brigham Young University.?

For the last two years, Walmart has scored just 40% on the Human Rights Campaign's Corporate Equality Index.

Source [http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/10/18/Walmart_Sells_Exgay_Kids_Book/]

Apparently selling a product that completely disregards and subjects a group of people to ridicule is perfectly acceptable by their standards, yet release a "violent" video game and by the heavens, we have unleashed a plague. Furthermore, it is simply mind baffling how this horrendous piece of dribble ever made it into circulation. It is unfortunate we live in a society that cannot fathom the minimal considerable of keeping their business to themselves. No, we have to "save the gays!" Just... unreal. The only thing they need rescuing from is moronic fanatics such as the author of the aforementioned book.

Nonetheless, I figured it would be an interesting conversation piece and hey, it is search bar approved! And before someone queries, I had recently read an article about Wal*Mart and their looming over the gaming industry about violence in games. Thus, I related the two for means of discussion.

Freedom of speach is for EVERYONE, weather you agree with them or not. Your being a hypocrite to say that gays have the right to be how they want but others don't have the right to express different views. Fact is its a product being sold and Wal*Mart is selling it, those that want to read it can and those that don't wont, why does it matter to you?

Ok, let me get this straight...

You don't want this kid selling a book that explains his point of view on homosexuality... because you don't agree with it? And the authors of opposing viewpoints to your own are "moronic fanatics"? Am I hearing this right?

The nature of homosexuality is still an open question, believe it or not. And even if it weren't, exactly what right do you have to deny his freedom of speech?

Good grief...

Thats what I get frustrated about with pro-gay people, they say to be open minded and accept them as humans (which I do) and yet if you don't agree that its natural they treat you like the worse criminal on earth, bunch of hypocrite's and lier's if you ask me. Others have the freedom and right to have a different view, its only discrimination if someone treats a person differently because they are a certain way, aka what the person above that created the topic is doing to the people selling the book (I bet if it was a book in the for gay category there wouldn't be a word about it).

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Speaking from a bookstore that has the Q'uran, the Dalai Lama, Mein Kampf, the Atheist's Christmas book, 101 uses of a Dead Cat, How to be a Serial Killer and Ginger Spice's kids book - would you rather Walmart were only allowed to sell completely sanctioned/safe/wholesome books?

Stores sell books. They're not responsible or promoting of the contents. I have to sell the fecking Twiglet books and they're far more offensive.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Ok......You do know that this actually has absolutely nothing to do with games though, right?

I mean really....Nothing. I really hate how about 80% of this site looks at every current event in terms of "How can I relate this to oppression of gaming as an art form?" and not in terms of it's own discussion value, of which there is plenty.

By the way, it's called Freedom of Speech. She's allowed to write it, and they're allowed to sell it, no matter how wrong it may be.

Well aware, I related it toward the subject due to an article I had recently read highlighing specifically that developers are meticulous in the degree of content a video game has simply because if Wal*Mart were to deem it unsuitable for their store, the game is doomed to obscurity. All in all, it was merely one of many possible discussion points, which could derive from the topic. I presumed a relation to video games was a worthwhile venture given the site.

Ok, let me get this straight...

You don't want this kid selling a book that explains his point of view on homosexuality... because you don't agree with it? And the authors of opposing viewpoints to your own are "moronic fanatics"? Am I hearing this right?

The nature of homosexuality is still an open question, believe it or not. And even if it weren't, exactly what right do you have to deny his freedom of speech?

Good grief...

If it were merely a disagreement, I have no further qualm with the book. Instead this book serves to objective an entire group of people for no rational explanation beyond a ridiculous phobia toward something that would otherwise never protrude into their lives. It is akin to as if someone of colored skin deemed themselves "cured" because they became white. The entirely of this book's existing is a means to insinuate a lifestyle, chosen or otherwise, is somehow wrong. Worse, it portrays this lifestyle as a disease.

Haha...this is what it took for you to realize Walmart is hypocritical? Really?

I work there, and there are far more glaring representations of hypocrisy there. Foremost is their refusal to sell anything but censored music, even though they'll sell the goriest horror movies around. (Seriously, check it out. There'll be horror movies with disturbing covers, but they refuse to sell uncensored music so they can "protect the children")

OT: While I don't say anything against the book, are you really surprised? Even though Walmart is an equal opportunity employer, as current laws force them to be, they are still a very openly CHRISTIAN company. Books about how "God did this" or things of that nature will always get a prime place on shelves. You don't have to like it, but there it'll stay. Unless you get a large group to change the general viewpoint of the country, they'll keep selling the crap that makes them money. Doesn't matter if you like it either. People are willing to buy, and they provide.

Hardly mate. This merely provided a more recent venue for discussion. I have long known the hilarity of the company's policy. Frankly, I do not maintain a vested interest in whether they choose to stock religious propaganda or any other material. I simply derive amusement from their continual hypocrisy in relation to such things. The example you provided is precisely as I had in mind.

I fail to see where is "hypocrisy" here. Where is this whole "plague" due to violent video games you rave about? Walmart sells all manner of violent video games, and even when they get decried as "violent", it isn't really by Walmart itself.

As for the book itself, I stand by omicron1's stance on the matter.

The "hypocrisy" falls upon their refusal to carry other products of a contrasting nature. I wonder, would they be willing to stock a book in which homosexuality was cited as a benefit, or that there was nary a thing wrong with any individual who sought such a lifestyle? Their refusal to sell certain products because of a faux crusader-esque mentality of shielding children is lost when they allow one aspect of prejudice, yet not others.

I was unaware that Wal-Mart had any issue with violent video games. Do you have a link to this article you speak of?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_40/241-Wal-Mart-Rules

-----

I should clarify my opinion as it may have become misconstrue subsequent to the debate. Whilst I have a loathing toward something so fundamentally wrong, I am in agreement with those citing freedom of speech. My immediately qualm is one I had previously ventured upon in the paragraphs preceding, wherein if a book insinuating the homosexual lifestyle is in no manner harmful, there is a strong probability few stores would dare sell it, Wal*Mart. Furthermore, this book depicts homosexuality akin to a disease, an abnormality we must seek to correct and thus it is evil. Such is no less different than were I to claim someone who is Jewish or black as "evil" because of their religion or color of skin.

Andy of Comix Inc essentially covered a sizable portion of my opinion, therefore anything further would press upon redundancy.

 

[TheOtherDaniel]

What I find most troubling here is that a book which "suggests that homosexuality can be overcome" is considered a bad thing. This suggests that the authors of said post have decided that it is not, and furthermore consider any argument with that viewpoint to be inherently bad. Of course, considering it's copied from the "Advocate," (which a quick google search reveals as a gay news portal) that's hardly surprising...

Generally speaking, telling people that their sexuality is "wrong" and can be "overcome to become heterosexual" is rather demeaning to those people, regardless of the intent and belief's of those whom have that opinion. It's essentially telling them they are less of a human being to heterosexuals for simply being homosexual.

That's the jist of what some posters on here are saying, to my understanding.

This thread is so off topic, and frankly there are so many ill informed opinions here. But that's what the internet is for, I guess...

As a Biblical Christian, I've seen books like it, and heard the testimonies of people like that, who have left the homosexual lifestyle behind. It is a myth that once your gay, you're always gay.

But let's ignore my Christian worldview for the moment, and consider that young homosexuals are statistically more likely to suicide, THE SAME in countries which have liberal laws permitting gay marriage and are gay tolerant.

Gay students are also more than twice as likely to report having had sexual intercourse before age 13 i.e. to be sexually abused as children. They are three times as likely to report being the victims of dating violence, and nearly four times as likely to report forced sexual contact.

Some studies show an increase in illegal drug use in gay populations, and, oddly enough, they are three times as likely to get pregnant as a teen or get someone else pregnant

Even if you don't consider the moral or Spiritual peril, homosexuality is a very risky and unhealthy lifestyle. If I am concerned for people; not being afraid OF them but in fact afraid FOR them, I don't see how you can label is stupid, or unloving, or ignorant.

 

[Something Amyss]

I still don't get this notion that you go gay simply by looking at gay porn or whatever. If your sexuality is that malleable, maybe the problem isn't the porn.

The real problem is that we must start showing all children porn so that they know how it is supposed to work, I mean I must argue in the same logic that the book sounds like it uses. So if you "learn to be gay" why not make a porn class for 8 year olds and on "teaching them to be straight".

1. This would freak out the parents. Great!
2. I would have loved this in puberty. Wonderful!
3. This idea is just as stupid as the book so it might sell. COOL!

As much as I would like to say just ban the book I won't as that is the argument they use against us. Let them be the biggots and we will be the accpeting figure, kinda like that one guy... Christ but when it comes to books, movies, video games ect. They are all my children, and I will die to protect them.

Oh, you my friend, are brilliant. And evil. And brilliant.

Run with their own logic. Show kids porn because sexuality is learned behaviour and if we don't teach them, they won't learn it right.

Damn those religious nuts, turning our kids gay by refusing kids access to porn!

 

[tigermilk]

snip

While I think it is offensive and bullshit, I don't think it is hypocritical. Underpinning there contempt for gay people and violent video games is the myth of 'saving people' (in their mids there is a consistancy). Obviously people don't need to be saved, but I am fairly confident a number of right wing dangerous fundamentalists don't see this. Hypocrisy? no, evil and dangerous? yes.

Perhaps one day (if there isn't a "Christain" ethos underpinning this I apologise) they will actually read a bible and reformulate their ideas in to a wholly Christain non-profitable body of attitudes and actions.

 

[Wintermoot]

this is just too stupid the ONLY way Walmart can sell these products is if they where owned by a conservative or something

Not very familiar with the Walton family, are you?

nope I live outside the US but when I was there on holidays I went to one once so can you explain them to me?

 

[omicron1]

Has anyone here actually read the book?

'Cause a whole lot of people are basing arguments off "what the book says" when all they have to go on is a brief summary of the book written by a news source that is directly opposed to everything the book has to say!

From what I can see, this book is being marketed to a specific group of people: those internally struggling with homosexual temptations, already Christian, and looking for answers. People that will pick up the book at Wal*Mart and not throw it aside because it's offensive to them. It's not being taught at school as Sex Ed 101. (as, IIRC, was being pushed for certain pro-gay literature...)

Specific answers:
"It's essentially telling them they are less of a human being to heterosexuals for simply being homosexual." -ShadowsOfHope
As stated before, it has nothing to do with the "level of humanity" of anyone unless those on the receiving end interpret it that way. It's not a case of Christians looking down on "those dirty homosexuals." Indeed, Christian doctrine is quite clear that all sin is equal, and that all are equally sinners. Someone who believes everything the Bible says (and who has actually read it; a fair number of Christians haven't) will believe that he is just as guilty as any given death row inmate. And if being offered help by someone who genuinely believes that what they offer IS help is too much for somebody... all I can say is, grow thicker skin.

" It assumes that gays are "evil" and "should be saved," which is an opinion spread as a truth." -AndyOfComix

See, that's what I don't quite understand here. Have you read the book? 'Cause if not, that summary ain't sayin' what you claim it's sayin'. From the summary, all I can infer is that the book assumes no personal evil aside from the evil Christians believe permeates ALL people, and is just trying to address a specific sin in a manner designed to help people break free from its influence.
I think perhaps a good number of people on this forum are assuming a great deal about the Christian message with regards to homosexuality, and about the people who believe it. Might be a good idea to get that straight before leaping straight into outrage mode.

"rather than just to this one person" -AndyOfComix

Not to dispute semantics here, but a significant portion of America is on "this one person"'s side.


"if you're uncomfortable with your perceived orientation you may have read the signs wrong, or you could be pansexual or asexual or God knows what." -also AndyOfComix

And here's another thing that amuses me. Any homosexual who converts from homosexuality apparently wasn't homosexual enough. That ain't an acceptable generalization in any debate.

" bunch of hypocrite's and lier's if you ask me." -RicoADF

Sorry, what? No, they believe just as strongly in their side as we do in ours. And we're all hypocrites and liars, sir - just as bad as the most blatant politician on earth. To be honest, you're acting just like everybody else on this topic, only for the other side. And since the actions of the people on this topic are what concerns me, I advise you to be slightly more even-handed.

"no rational explanation beyond a ridiculous phobia" -Bourne Endeavor
Ok, the buck stops here. 'Tain't a "phobia," people - the opposition to your cause is just as rational as you are.
The new "racist" allegation is the suggestion that the opposition, against all bounds of human decency and reason, is an ignorant, "homophobic" bigot. Ignoring the ad hominem fallacy at work here, this simply isn't the case. Homophobia is defined as: "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals" - implying that the Christian and the conservative aren't actually thinking about this - they're just acting on a baser instinct, and are therefore on a lower level than the "thinking, tolerant Liberal." Problem is, both conservatives and Christians actually have reason on their side. For the conservative, as shown above homosexuality is far from a done deal - and until it is proven, IF it ends up being proven, it is both possible and logical to take a standpoint against homosexuality without being driven by fear or hatred. For the Christian, starting from the standpoint of the Bible being (so to speak) Bible truth, everything declared therein is true, and conclusions on the nature of right and wrong must follow thence. It is not fear, nor hatred that makes the Christian averse to homosexuality - it is a conclusion drawn from the Christian's sincerely held beliefs (no different in their essential nature from the liberal belief that homosexuals are born that way), and is both rational and defensible.

"It is akin to as if someone of colored skin deemed themselves "cured" because they became white." -Bourne Endeavor
This is only true on the receiving end. To the person who wrote the book, it's more akin to a FURRY declaring themselves cured because they stopped liking sex-in-sheep's-clothing.
There's a diametrical divide between the sides of this debate. To one side, homosexuality is a physical characteristic no different from race or gender. To the other, it's an attitude - something mental, something curable. And at present, there is no concrete answer as to which side is right, so keeping either side from talking is death to fair debate. Also, please read my comments on the book's market above.


...Anyway, I can just tell that this debate (as such) is going to balloon beyond all human comprehension or understanding. And trying to take part in it is somewhat akin to trying to explain to a pride of lions the meaning of "vegetarian." So barring a particularly interesting reply, I'm out. Ciao.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Even if you don't consider the moral or Spiritual peril, homosexuality is a very risky and unhealthy lifestyle. If I am concerned for people; not being afraid OF them but in fact afraid FOR them, I don't see how you can label is stupid, or unloving, or ignorant.

To be frank, sir, I do believe that is a load of crock. Do you have citations to support your entire post?

 

[mr_rubino]

Even if you don't consider the moral or Spiritual peril, homosexuality is a very risky and unhealthy lifestyle. If I am concerned for people; not being afraid OF them but in fact afraid FOR them, I don't see how you can label is stupid, or unloving, or ignorant.

To be frank, sir, I do believe that is a load of crock. Do you have citations to support your entire post?

Don't make eye contact. Just let it slide and walk away.

this is just too stupid the ONLY way Walmart can sell these products is if they where owned by a conservative or something

Not very familiar with the Walton family, are you?

nope I live outside the US but when I was there on holidays I went to one once so can you explain them to me?

Nothing much to say, really. They're new-money neo-conservatives and shameless about it. Of course they just hold the reins. The rest of the higher-ups are no better.
I still buy stuff there occasionally because I'm getting older and my conscience has been whittled away despite knowing vaguely of Wal*Mart's various and sundry atrocities in decent detail. I think I even saw a movie about it in college...

 

[Terminate421]

Question:

Is it normal to experiment with different kinds of Internet porn in high school? I did that for a while until I found out im just a normal straight guy. But I caught my self fapping to the wrong stuff a few times (Like 5 times)

Am I okay or was that just harmless experimentation?

It's a slippery slope. We're going to have to watch you closely.

That was two years ago. Im not gay now.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Even if you don't consider the moral or Spiritual peril, homosexuality is a very risky and unhealthy lifestyle. If I am concerned for people; not being afraid OF them but in fact afraid FOR them, I don't see how you can label is stupid, or unloving, or ignorant.

To be frank, sir, I do believe that is a load of crock. Do you have citations to support your entire post?

Don't make eye contact. Just let it slide and walk away.

I realize I will likely get a pro-Christian site spam as citation, but it really is too late now to take it back. We'll see.

 

[Garrsus]

OK I'm surprised that this hasn't been posted already but...

Spoiler: ...

i really hate people who cant see out their own eyes instead off being told what to say.

 

[MagnusX7]

Who cares? They sell all sorts of books, be them stupid or otherwise.

agreed, as commander shepard might say "it's their right to free speech if that's how they think they have a right to say."(renagade trigger) "even if they are being stone age morons about it."

 

[MagnusX7]

I know nothing about the book involved but I...am....christian (you thought I would say gay didn't you). I'm more torn about how to love gay's anyway while offering some form of dissent. Sort of a where is the line type question. but as shepard might say...(see above quote)