I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

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crimson5pheonix

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Winnosh said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Winnosh said:
crimson5pheonix said:
inu-kun said:
This might piss off some people but thinking about it, Finn is kinda racist, besides the part of him using the turret in the start, in the rest of the film he exists to make Ray look better by comparison with him making her a straight "mighty whitey".
Well that's not quite fair, everyone exists to make Rey look better. She's stronger in the force and a better fighter than Ren, she's better than Finn, she has to tell Han how his own ship works. We haven't really had her talk to Poe yet, but I bet she's around as good a pilot as Poe, if not better.
How is she a better fighter than Ren? She holds her own against him, barely, when Ren has
1: Been shot in the gut with a Bowcaster, something which is pretty much a laser Shotgun with a much bigger kick"
2: Been slashed a couple of time by Finn who also only held his own because Ren was injured before the fight even started.

Ren was bleeding out through the entire fight, he needed immediate medical attention but still fought the two of them in rapid sucession.
And she was already at the point where Ren's force powers weren't working on her back when she was tied up. And yes, I'm still going to hold out on Ren having years of force and lightsaber training to Rey's jack squat.
And Darth Vader the Dark Lord of the Sith himself couldn't get the rebel base's location out of a completely untrained Princess Leia. This is nothing new with an untrained force user being able to keep information back from someone.

The scene was a mirror to the one in Return of the Jedi
Except that Rey turned it around on Ren and started sifting through his mind, something Leia couldn't do on account of not being the best at everything forever.
 

BloatedGuppy

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crimson5pheonix said:
...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.
You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?
 

crimson5pheonix

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BloatedGuppy said:
crimson5pheonix said:
...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.
You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?
Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship. Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.
 

MishaK

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I like the attempt to turn globally shitty storytelling in the SW universe, into an "SJW/MRA" issue. Fucking priceless.

It's Star Wars! The most laughable, entertaining shlock there is! Space BALLS was better written and acted, and if you really love SW you know that too.

crimson5pheonix said:
BloatedGuppy said:
crimson5pheonix said:
...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.
You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?
Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship. Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.
Maybe children, married life, and decades of crushing responsibility have mellowed him. It's as good an explanation for anything in SW.
 

VoidWanderer

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Mudman1234 said:
lechat said:
Mudman1234 said:
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the people who not only think Finn wasn't a retardedly written character, but the best in the movie?

JJ gives us this Storm Trooper who was kidnapped as a child and brainwashed into being this merciless soldier and after his first taste at combat where a fellow Trooper died essentially in his arms and watched an innocent village getting mowed down and he turns into typical joke cracking black guy who's nothing but cringeworthy as fuck?

Jar Jar was more logical than this shit.
fuck finally found someone who agrees.
I understand having a level of comic relief but that guy was so obviously "token goofy harmless black guy" that it made me feel ashamed for whoever wrote him.
That's my issue. Not that he's trying to make light of a situation with a little humor. It's that he feels like a token character who was written for a shitty skit in The Chapelle Show or something.
The way I see this character is Generic Stormtrooper number 834 see combat for the first time, and something awakens within him. He becomes Force Sensitive. But given the extreme conditioning he was under he has absolutely no idea what happened, and why. The death of an ally, is the first moment we stop seeing stormtroopers as mooks with terrible aim, but as actual people. This is I think, his awakening.

So, he blunders through the attack, but Captain Phasma AND Kylo both stop to appraise him. They both know there is something off about this trooper. And you are right he does tell cringeworthy humour. But given his conditioning, I doubt he even experienced emotions before. Seriously, would you want a trooper that can be emotionally manipulated? Of course not. They must be cold and detached.

I actually think this is subversive writing. He seems so out of place because he literally is. He doesn't get the social cues from other people because he literally has no idea what they are. He followed orders, and that was it. But given his awakening, I think it broke his conditioning, and know you see a man without emotion trying to get by where people emote.

But this is just my view
 

Dazzle Novak

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This argument is so muddied because you have the pro-side being intentionally dense and leaning on speculation posed as "obvious" fact along with faith that "all will be explained next movie, I'm sure" while the anti-side peddles in arguments stained by their questionable (i.e. racist/sexist) implementation.

Finn's confrontation with Phasma is the one point he's embarrassingly in Kevin Hart territory. That, and when he essentially tells a droid, "Nigga, please!" Otherwise, it's simply the fact that establishing the storm troopers as being victims of kidnapping/indoctrination makes their thoughtless disposability less palatable which is then compounded by how little Finn reacts to the fact he's killing mooks he knows personally.

Finn not being all that good at anything wouldn't be bad in and of itself, it'd mirror Luke's arc minus the Ace Pilotship, but everyone around him is many folds awesomer. I was glad to see someone lose despite wielding a lightsaber, but when you have Han, Poe, and Rey as pilots, Han and Rey as shooters, and Rey as mechanic and the Jedi prodigy, "normal" becomes "useless". Fans can't praise Rey for her competence and not ever needing rescue, while telling black people, "Don't cry that your insert character is bumbling and ineffectual compared to everyone around him."
 

BloatedGuppy

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crimson5pheonix said:
Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship.
That literally never happened.

crimson5pheonix said:
Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.
Lawrence Kasdan, who was responsible for Han's primary characterization in Empire Strikes Back (far and away the most Han-centric scene) had script approval and co-wrote Force Awakens. It would appear his vision of Han's character differs from yours.

MishaK said:
I like the attempt to turn globally shitty storytelling in the SW universe, into an "SJW/MRA" issue. Fucking priceless.
Given the tenor of discussion in "geek space" over the last half decade, are you surprised? This was inevitable.
 

Dazzle Novak

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BloatedGuppy said:
Lawrence Kasdan, who was responsible for Han's primary characterization in Empire Strikes Back (far and away the most Han-centric scene) had script approval and co-wrote Force Awakens. It would appear his vision of Han's character differs from yours.
Lawrence Kasdan also wrote Return of the Jedi where Han is portrayed as a slapstick idiot who kills Boba Fett on accident.

Let's not pretend he can do no wrong.
 

crimson5pheonix

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MishaK said:
I like the attempt to turn globally shitty storytelling in the SW universe, into an "SJW/MRA" issue. Fucking priceless.

It's Star Wars! The most laughable, entertaining shlock there is! Space BALLS was better written and acted, and if you really love SW you know that too.

crimson5pheonix said:
BloatedGuppy said:
crimson5pheonix said:
...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.
You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?
Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship. Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.
Maybe children, married life, and decades of crushing responsibility have mellowed him. It's as good an explanation for anything in SW.
I might actually buy that, but then why did Han do the most Han thing and run away from his responsibilities in the first place.

BloatedGuppy said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship.
That literally never happened.
Really, do you not remember her saying what they should do with Han finishing her thought? It only happened a few times...

crimson5pheonix said:
Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.
Lawrence Kasdan, who was responsible for Han's primary characterization in Empire Strikes Back (far and away the most Han-centric scene) had script approval and co-wrote Force Awakens. It would appear his vision of Han's character differs from yours.
Cool, what does that matter again?

Pluvia said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Except that Rey turned it around on Ren and started sifting through his mind, something Leia couldn't do on account of not being the best at everything forever.
Luke did manage to use telekinesis to move ship missiles perfectly at insane speeds, which is power that was no one else shows anything close to in the rest of the series, yet no one bats an eye. Not even counting the fact that Luke had never seen any force powers being used as telekinesis. Neither Obi-Wan or Vader had done that in front of him.

So it's not too much of a stretch to think Rey can do things with the force to a lesser extent than Luke did the first time he started using them.
Did he use telekinesis? I always assumed he just pulled some zen archery stuff. If all he was doing was forcing the missile where it needed to go, why not keep the targeting computer on to have the missile go closer to where it needed to so he wouldn't have to strain himself so hard?

In either case, he wasn't working against another force user. Her beating Ren at his own game makes Ren look weak. Why are we scared of him? If 3 derps can take him in a fight, we can presume a squad of troopers can and we have to ask why no one has stopped him. Why can he kill his fellow Jedi in training without Luke being able to stop him but not deal with these 3? Do we assume that wasn't an emotional experience and that he got through it unscathed?
 

BloatedGuppy

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crimson5pheonix said:
Really, do you not remember her saying what they should do with Han finishing her thought? It only happened a few times...
Yes I remember them having the same idea at the same time. Han was the one who carried the action out. She also "bypassed" the compressor (by ripping it out), which she knew was installed because she worked for the junk dealer who had come to own the ship. She seemed very impressed by her improvisation, and Han looked completely unimpressed, resulting in a reaction shot of her face falling from a happy smile to a confused frown as he walked away. Those were the two interactions the characters had regarding the Falcon. Let me know how it fits into the narrative of how she's the absolute best at everything and schools every other character.

crimson5pheonix said:
Cool, what does that matter again?
You mean, what does the opinion of one of the character's creators matter as pertains to said character's behavior? Gosh I don't know. It's a puzzle.

Dazzle Novak said:
Lawrence Kasdan also wrote Return of the Jedi where Han is portrayed as a slapstick idiot who kills Boba Fett on accident.

Let's not pretend he can do no wrong.
Hey, I was the one reminding everyone that Kershner's only other contribution to modern cinema was Robocop 2, you don't need to prompt me about not lionizing these guys. If you wanted to go mining for Kasdan's failures, you needn't have started with Return of the Jedi. He also had his fingers in turds like Dreamcatcher and Wyatt Earp. It's not a question of "Kasdan doing no wrong", I just think it's fair to credit one of a character's primary creators with having the more authoritative outlook on how said character should develop. I'm not an advocate of authorial fiat, so if everyone thinks Kasdan did shit work, they're welcome to that opinion. It's just amusing to read people speculating as if one of the writers didn't understand his own character.
 

Dazzle Novak

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BloatedGuppy said:
You mean, what does the opinion of one of the character's creators matter as pertains to said character's behavior? Gosh I don't know. It's a puzzle.
Do you place similar stock in George Lucas' opinion on his franchise or can you admit even the mastermind behind a work can make mistakes and lose track of their own story?
 

BloatedGuppy

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Dazzle Novak said:
Do you place similar stock in George Lucas' opinion on his franchise or can you admit even the mastermind behind a work can make mistakes and lose track of their own story?
I had total faith in Lucas's ability to deliver more solid entries into the universe until he was given three mulligans at it and shit the bed every time.

That the same Lucas wanted Han to be a "frog faced alien" (likely realized later in the Gungans) and C3PO to be a "used car salesman" (likely realized later in Watto) suggests that Lucas was probably always best served by having strong voices in the room ready to reign him in. His contributions to Crystal Skull also raise questions as to his competence.

I think the even man's most ardent defenders freely admit at this juncture that his film-making days are in his rear view mirror.
 

crimson5pheonix

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BloatedGuppy said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Really, do you not remember her saying what they should do with Han finishing her thought? It only happened a few times...
Yes I remember them having the same idea at the same time. Han was the one who carried the action out. She also "bypassed" the compressor (by ripping it out), which she knew was installed because she worked for the junk dealer who had come to own the ship. She seemed very impressed by her improvisation, and Han looked completely unimpressed, resulting in a reaction shot of her face falling from a happy smile to a confused frown as he walked away. Those were the two interactions the characters had regarding the Falcon. Let me know how it fits into the narrative of how she's the absolute best at everything and schools every other character.
I remember her being quicker on her articulation implying that Han only went to that conclusion on cue from Rey. So at best, her piloting skill is on par with an old smuggler who is regarded very well despite having never left her planet, implying that she shouldn't know dick about piloting. Otherwise, as I suspect, she's even better. This theme is repeated with most anybody she meets, where she's either their equal or better.

crimson5pheonix said:
Cool, what does that matter again?
You mean, what does the opinion of one of the character's creators matter as pertains to said character's behavior? Gosh I don't know. It's a puzzle.
It is indeed, because as Novak pointed out his writing isn't consistent.
 

Winnosh

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Dazzle Novak said:
BloatedGuppy said:
You mean, what does the opinion of one of the character's creators matter as pertains to said character's behavior? Gosh I don't know. It's a puzzle.
Do you place similar stock in George Lucas' opinion on his franchise or can you admit even the mastermind behind a work can make mistakes and lose track of their own story?
Except that Lucas didn't write or direct those movies. The only one he did was also the one with the most adlibbing and other people changing stuff.
 

BloatedGuppy

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crimson5pheonix said:
So at best, her piloting skill is on par with an old smuggler who is regarded very well despite having never left her planet, implying that she shouldn't know dick about piloting.
It's established relatively early on that she's flown before, just never off planet.

You deriving that her skills here "on par" with Han because of two throwaway bits that ended with an unimpressed Han walking away is you seeing something that you were looking for.

crimson5pheonix said:
Otherwise, as I suspect, she's even better.
As evidenced here. You are literally filling in your own blanks to disgust YOURSELF about how the character was portrayed. As I've said repeatedly, there was room for an intelligent discussion about Rey's characterization, but it was very quickly drowned out by polarized crap like "SHE'S BETTER THAN EVERYONE AT EVERYTHING WHAAAAAARGARBLE".

crimson5pheonix said:
It is indeed, because as Novak pointed out his writing isn't consistent.
Novak's salient assertion that Kasdan is not god's gift to screenwriting is irrelevant to the question of whom, between Kasdan and yourself, should be considered a steward of the character of Han Solo.

Winnosh said:
Except that Lucas didn't write or direct those movies. The only one he did was also the one with the most adlibbing and other people changing stuff.
Lucas has writing credits on both Empire and ROTJ.
 

Dazzle Novak

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BloatedGuppy said:
Novak's salient assertion that Kasdan is not god's gift to screenwriting is irrelevant to the question of whom, between Kasdan and yourself, should be considered a steward of the character of Han Solo.
Why do I get the feeling that "salient" is dripping with sarcasm and venom?

Harrison Ford went off script with Kasdan, too. The infamous "I know" line is an ad-lib.

Your assertion is that once a writer writes a character well, it negates any audience member's contention with future portrayals. I disagree. His portrayal of Han in RotJ is inconsistent, so why am I expected to accept your appeal to authority regarding his portrayal in TFA?

Moreover, we're discussing a screenwriter. Among the most mercenary of writers. He's expected to push out a script when hired to do so. Sometimes, character suffers as a result of a tight schedule. That, and the director has final say.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Dazzle Novak said:
Why do I get the feeling that "salient" is dripping with sarcasm and venom?
I mean this in the nicest way possible...because you don't like me, and you've developed a persecution complex that has informed almost every interaction we've had on this subject.

It's a perfectly reasonable point to raise. Kasdan is a not infallible.

Dazzle Novak said:
Harrison Ford went off script with Kasdan, too. The infamous "I know" line is an ad-lib.
Yeah I'm aware. Actors actually being able to make contributions to their characters is something that felt missing from episodes 1-3.

Dazzle Novak said:
Your assertion is that once a writer writes a character well, it negates any audience member's contention with future portrayals. I disagree. His portrayal of Han in RotJ is inconsistent, so why am I expected to accept your appeal to authority that his portrayal in TFA must be?
That's not my assertion at all. In fact, I stated the exact opposite of this in my last reply to you.

Dazzle Novak said:
Moreso, we're discussing a screenwriter. Among the most mercenary of writers. He's expected to push out a script when hired to do so. Sometimes, character suffers as a result.
Okay...did you have an issue with Han's portrayal in Force Awakens? And if so, do you credit that issue to the way he was written?

He seemed rather quintessentially "Han" to me, and his clunkiest moments were with Leia, not any of the new cast. IMO, naturally.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Pluvia said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Did he use telekinesis? I always assumed he just pulled some zen archery stuff. If all he was doing was forcing the missile where it needed to go, why not keep the targeting computer on to have the missile go closer to where it needed to so he wouldn't have to strain himself so hard?

In either case, he wasn't working against another force user. Her beating Ren at his own game makes Ren look weak. Why are we scared of him? If 3 derps can take him in a fight, we can presume a squad of troopers can and we have to ask why no one has stopped him. Why can he kill his fellow Jedi in training without Luke being able to stop him but not deal with these 3? Do we assume that wasn't an emotional experience and that he got through it unscathed?
Well the missiles weren't targeting anything and they were in space. It wouldn't be like pulling of a fancy trick shot, the only way those missiles could've moved is if he moved them himself. He turned the computer off to rely on the force.
So then, why were any other bombers on the bombing run? A bunch of them went in expecting to take the shot, but nobody else could use the force. Why did Han say the shot was one in a million? He doesn't believe in the force. If the missiles were only moving because of the force, shouldn't he be acknowledging the force is real or wondering how that happened? Also lol at the missiles not moving themselves, missiles have propulsion.

Ren was winning that fight. Despite having been shot by a shotgun basically, he still wiped the floor with Finn. He was toying with him in that fight then just straight up beat him. He even beat Rey until she tapped into the force, he wasn't trying to kill her remember, she spent that entire fight running away because he was more powerful.
Well Finn isn't force sensitive and was using a weapon that's been noted to be dangerous to use for non-force sensitives. But didn't he manage to land a blow anyway? And I don't know if it was that one sided against Rey, she was doing fine holding him off before just wrecking his shit.

A squad of troopers probably could take him yes. Jedi Masters were taken out by just a handful of troops with ease remember. But like them he always seems to fight with an army, so that explains why he hasn't been stopped. When it comes to fear very little people feared him throughout the film, despite the people he was just about to kill of course.
Makes for a bad villain. As if his ridiculous appearance without his helmet was bad enough. But with Vader you figured he could stop a squad of troopers, though it helps that he can stop blaster shots with his bare(ish) hands.

How can he kill his fellow Jedi in training without Luke being able to stop him? Luke was most likely away (I'm incredibly confident this will be the case when we see it).
I'd believe that, in which case it's a bad mark on Luke. But that still leaves him fighting however many other padawans when he received about as much training as them (presumably).

BloatedGuppy said:
crimson5pheonix said:
So at best, her piloting skill is on par with an old smuggler who is regarded very well despite having never left her planet, implying that she shouldn't know dick about piloting.
It's established relatively early on that she's flown before, just never off planet.

You deriving that her skills here "on par" with Han because of two throwaway bits that ended with an unimpressed Han walking away is you seeing something that you were looking for.
I don't know where that happened. I remember she uses speeders, but that's about it.

More than two bits and Han does say (repeatedly if I remember) that she knows what she's doing. She so impressed him that he asked her to join up with them. You forget that?

crimson5pheonix said:
Otherwise, as I suspect, she's even better.
As evidenced here. You are literally filling in your own blanks to disgust YOURSELF about how the character was portrayed. As I've said repeatedly, there was room for an intelligent discussion about Rey's characterization, but it was very quickly drowned out by polarized crap like "SHE'S BETTER THAN EVERYONE AT EVERYTHING WHAAAAAARGARBLE".
I'll stop saying that when there's a chance for her to fail. Like I said, the typical second movie event is to have the main character lose a hand, hopefully she keeps up that tradition.

crimson5pheonix said:
It is indeed, because as Novak pointed out his writing isn't consistent.
Novak's salient assertion that Kasdan is not god's gift to screenwriting is irrelevant to the question of whom, between Kasdan and yourself, should be considered a steward of the character of Han Solo.
I never claimed to be a steward, I just said Han seemed like he was acting out of character. The writer's opinion matters, but no one person is the definitive voice on this. Though judging from how many people are saying Rey is a Mary Sue, I imagine I'm not the only one with this opinion.