I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

[Kajin]

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Luke was up against an opponent with DECADES of experience. Rey was up against Ren, who is both still in training and had a bowcaster wound through the gut.

Ren had far more experience than Rey and Vader was asthmatic, what's your point?

My point is that your argument is terrible. Rey won because circumstances were in her favor, not because she's a special snowflake that can do no wrong.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Luke was up against an opponent with DECADES of experience. Rey was up against Ren, who is both still in training and had a bowcaster wound through the gut.

Ren had far more experience than Rey and Vader was asthmatic, what's your point?

My point is that your argument is terrible. Rey won because circumstances were in her favor, not because she's a special snowflake that can do no wrong.

But she is. The fact is she did win in the first movie pulling the rug out from underneath Ren, establishing him as an incompetent failure. Rey is clearly as competent or more so than anyone shown so far. Until somebody knocks her on her ass, there's no narrative tension when she's involved. I can assume she'll succeed at whatever she does. The closest to failure she gets is "turning a fuck up into an advantage" like when she let loose the tentacle monsters.

Meanwhile Kmart Anakin has a few minor success and a lot of fuck ups. As bad as Anakin was, he could at least get results.

Well then they'd still have to aim it over the opening from a long distance away. As they pointed out, it was a hard shot. Even if the missiles were pre-programmed to curve, they'd still have to get the missile in the one specific spot where it would, which is what the targeting computer would be there for. I'm pretty sure he didn't use telekinesis because nobody commented on any strangeness in the shot other than he had good aim. And his previous force training was centered around awareness (remember this movie was written properly where people don't just spontaneously gain powers as they need them).

Well no the targeting computer would target the exhaust port and then tell the missiles to curve down into it once they reach it. Without targeting anything the missiles would just fly right past it, and we see Luke tapping into the force so he can curve them into the port. If they only needed to reach a certain spot (which they didn't, they tried firing from different points remember) then they'd just need something on the ship to tell them where to go and then fire their missiles, they wouldn't need to target the exhaust port at all.

How do you know the targeting computer was guiding the missile mid flight? There's good reason to believe he was just using the force to aim since that was the focus of his training before, Law of Conservation of Detail [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail] and all. The base knows he wasn't using his targeting computer but the shot still went in. Nobody is amazed at how the shot curved, people are amazed he aimed so well.

Also, no one ever comments on the force in any of the movies. They actually watch Obi-Wan just straight up disappear and no one mentions it how bizarre is was. Despite never seeing any telekinetic force powers in action, Luke suddenly has the incredible ability to change the course of missiles mid-flight just by focusing a bit, and that's not even counting the fact that earlier he managed to block lasers he couldn't even see. Rey doesn't show anything near this level of power.

Luke comments when Kenobi pulls a mind trick (an ability Rey just does on the spot). And it's only you thinking Luke curved the shots. Kenobi's robes collapsed, but they were far away.

Did Han know that was the force being used? We already established that he doesn't believe in the force.

That was the second time he saw something impossible happen. He's not an idiot.

If the shot curving was impossible, what were the other bombers doing on the run?

He says he doesn't believe there's an all-powerful Force controlling everything. Seems pretty cut and dry. And remember, the Jedi were viewed with suspicion and superstition already before 20 years of propaganda made it worse.

Yes he doesn't believe there's an all-powerful force controlling everything, not he doesn't believe in the force. He just doesn't believe it controls everything, definitely not peoples destinies, and that it's all-powerful.

I mean less that 20 years ago the Jedi were at the top of the galaxy, fought in the Clone Wars, and were the catalyst to the creation of the Empire. He'll know of that.

So he doesn't believe in the force, like he says. Believing in the Jedi and believing in the force are two different things. He calls the force a "hokey religion" and says force abilities are "simple tricks and nonsense".

Between her running she stops to deflect his blows. She's competent enough to not be a danger to herself and others. So before she taps into the force, she's better than Finn the soldier. After tapping into the force she's better than Ren one of the only 2 trained lightsaber users in the galaxy (unless Snoke has a lightsaber as well).

His blows that weren't killing blows, yes. That's not very impressive. Being competent not to be a danger to herself or others also isn't that impressive, hell I'm competent enough to do that, and most people are better than Stormtroopers. Even Luke who just lived on a farm was better than every Stormtrooper he came across. Even Leia.

Funnily enough, if you pay attention to the prequels a lot of the blows weren't even aimed at the opponent. At least Ren was aiming for Rey. And troopers are only useless in the original movies, they're actually dangerous in the prequels and in this movie.

That wasn't a viable option against Vader and Sidious, so it made them more threatening. The point here is why is Ren threatening?

Mace Windu beat Palpatine and Palpatine spent his time avoiding fighting. Even Yoda was an even match for him. After that Palpatine always had an army with him, I mean he was in charge, so yeah when it came to fighting one-on-one then Palpatine wasn't anymore impressive than Jedi Masters. He also died without putting up a fight, which was rather pathetic. So yeah I think you're overstating the threat of him there, I mean he seemed ominous but I'm sure it'd probably only take about the same amount of troops it'd take to kill Yoda to kill him.

Vader is stronger than Palpatine, but Ren doesn't live up to Vader and that's like his entire arc in this film. He's threatening because he's emotionally unstable and will do anything he can to try and live up to Vader. Everytime he's on the field they achieve something, he only loses to Rey in the end after he's been seriously weakened.

It should be pointed out that Windu was one of the most powerful masters and so was Yoda. He fought Yoda until Yoda had to duck out, he was winning handily against Yoda. And he was beating Luke until Vader turned on him.

Ren was effective at the start of the movie, but he stops being useful later on. He just becomes straight useless after he takes his helmet off.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Luke was up against an opponent with DECADES of experience. Rey was up against Ren, who is both still in training and had a bowcaster wound through the gut.

Ren had far more experience than Rey and Vader was asthmatic, what's your point?

Ren had barely any close quarters combat training.

It's painfully obvious just by watching the way he fights.

He was trained by Luke and later Snoke, take it up with them if you think so. I actually liked the lightsaber fighting in this movie, it didn't look as stilted as the fighting in the original movies and actually looks dangerous unlike the prequels.

I stand by what I said. Ren fought like an amateur.

As a side note, you notice how bad the fighting is in the prequels?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Luke was up against an opponent with DECADES of experience. Rey was up against Ren, who is both still in training and had a bowcaster wound through the gut.

Ren had far more experience than Rey and Vader was asthmatic, what's your point?

Ren had barely any close quarters combat training.

It's painfully obvious just by watching the way he fights.

He was trained by Luke and later Snoke, take it up with them if you think so. I actually liked the lightsaber fighting in this movie, it didn't look as stilted as the fighting in the original movies and actually looks dangerous unlike the prequels.

I stand by what I said. Ren fought like an amateur.

As a side note, you notice how bad the fighting is in the prequels?

What fighting? I only saw dancing.

I don't even mind the kickkickturnkick nonsense, I just hated how they don't aim for each other.

 

[WolfThomas]

Also I'm glad he's not force sensitive. You know who else wasn't Han Muthafuggin Solo. Not everyone needs to be a special Jedi, that was a problem with the prequels.

I wouldn't be too sure. He doesn't use the force in this film but that doesn't mean he won't in future films. There's an argument that he might be force sensitive, because the killings at the start broke his indoctrination. Also Kylo Ren specifically notices something is off with him. When he and Dameron escape he immediately knows what number he was.

I don't think having two potential new Jedi compares to the prequels. We still have Poe Dameron for a non-force using badass. And just because someone is force-sensitive, doesn't mean they have to be a jedi. Leia clearly didn't go down that path.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Possibly so, but in any case she shows just as much competence as Han in knowing the Millennium Falcon.

No. She doesn't. This is a statement that has no basis in fact. We've reviewed the ONLY exchanges they had together regarding that ship. Everything else happened in your imagination. I get that you're married to your "special snowflake" theory and I'm not going to get between the two of you, but do try and restrict your criticisms to things that actually happened.

Luke by definition makes it through an enemy base, even if he wasn't there to see everything. And Han has a bad habit in getting himself into trouble that he has to shoot out *cough Jabba cough*, so having a spare shooter around is probably a decent priority as well.

This is why I did not complain when Han offered him a place on the Falcon, and did not complain when he did the same later with Rey. Both appeared useful to him, and he has a soft spot for kids he picks up on desert planets.

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Loses to a fully trained and established Sith Lord at the height of his powers, yes, after virtually no "training", almost ALL of which was directed at heading off his "Vader Impulses" because Yoda was terrified he was going to turn Dark Side. Notably, none of the training we see is "saber training". It's all about him clearing his mind and not being so fucking impatient and angry.

And also notably, as an audience we actually have absolutely no idea if Rey has any training or not. We can guess with almost pinpoint accuracy that she's part of the Skywalker legacy. What was Luke doing with her the first 6-7 years of her life?

She was making perfectly good strides in getting herself out of trouble, which is more than I can say for Luke. She has demonstrated the ability to mind trick and she only has to mind trick one person to get off the base. She doesn't even necessarily need to mind trick, Poe and Finn got a ship with no force powers.

She was running and hiding. She was making absolutely no progress towards any kind of ship that we could see, and seemed genuinely relieved to be rescued. That is a thing that actually happened in the actual film. Rey's daring mind-trick escape in a ship only happened in your imagination.

Rey has proved far more competent than Luke comparing their first movies together.

One grew up on a farm, the other grew up scavenging in a desert. I'd anticipate one of those characters to show slightly more base survival competency than the other. Luke going from farm boy to space adventurer is every bit as ludicrous and rapid a transition.

So Ren's a pushover? What's the 8th movie going to be, Ren jogging to Eye of the Tiger looking for a rematch?

If maiming one primary character and almost killing/capturing a second (for the second time) after being gutshot with one of the most canonically powerful infantry weapons in the Star Wars universe makes him a "pushover", then sure. I do appreciate you've got a narrative to sustain here.

A jerkish character, which is what Han was portrayed as.

Again, you keep posting quotes of Han snapping at people who directly criticize him, which is supporting my argument. I'm not sure if you just agree at this point and want to give me a hand, or what's happening, but it's beginning to feel very circular. I look forward to the next quote were someone insults Han and he snaps at them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I wouldn't be too sure. He doesn't use the force in this film but that doesn't mean he won't in future films. There's an argument that he might be force sensitive, because the killings at the start broke his indoctrination. Also Kylo Ren specifically notices something is off with him. When he and Dameron escape he immediately knows what number he was.

I don't think having two potential new Jedi compares to the prequels. We still have Poe Dameron for a non-force using badass. And just because someone is force-sensitive, doesn't mean they have to be a jedi. Leia clearly didn't go down that path.

Anything is possible, but due to Rey's (obvious) parentage, there would be a danger of Finn being a "second string Jedi" unless some crazy ass shenanigans occur with her going Dark Side, and really there should be a rational limit on "Skywalkers Gone Wild".

Finn would be better served as a character with his own arc.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Possibly so, but in any case she shows just as much competence as Han in knowing the Millennium Falcon.

No. She doesn't. This is a statement that has no basis in fact. We've reviewed the ONLY exchanges they had together regarding that ship. Everything else happened in your imagination. I get that you're married to your "special snowflake" theory and I'm not going to get between the two of you, but do try and restrict your criticisms to things that actually happened.

I am, she does in fact lead him on explaining the ship and fixes it. She IS shown to be just as competent.

Luke by definition makes it through an enemy base, even if he wasn't there to see everything. And Han has a bad habit in getting himself into trouble that he has to shoot out *cough Jabba cough*, so having a spare shooter around is probably a decent priority as well.

This is why I did not complain when Han offered him a place on the Falcon, and did not complain when he did the same later with Rey. Both appeared useful to him, and he has a soft spot for kids he picks up on desert planets.

But Luke still shows more to Han.

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Loses to a fully trained and established Sith Lord at the height of his powers, yes, after virtually no "training", almost ALL of which was directed at heading off his "Vader Impulses" because Yoda was terrified he was going to turn Dark Side. Notably, none of the training we see is "saber training". It's all about him clearing his mind and not being so fucking impatient and angry.

And notably, as an audience we actually have absolutely no idea if Rey has any training or not. We can guess with almost pinpoint accuracy that she's part of the Skywalker legacy. What was Luke doing with her the first 6-7 years of her life?

Guaranteed to be less than what Ren got preceding his loss.

She was making perfectly good strides in getting herself out of trouble, which is more than I can say for Luke. She has demonstrated the ability to mind trick and she only has to mind trick one person to get off the base. She doesn't even necessarily need to mind trick, Poe and Finn got a ship with no force powers.

She was running and hiding. She was making absolutely no progress towards any kind of ship that we could see, and seemed genuinely relieved to be rescued. That is a thing that actually happened in the actual film. Rey's daring mind-trick escape in a ship only happened in your imagination.

What makes you think she wasn't heading to a ship? Everything leading up to then has been showing her as being self sufficient. Why wouldn't she be trying to save herself? And she's probably happy to see them because she's happy to see people and it's easier to leave with help.

Rey has proved far more competent than Luke comparing their first movies together.

One grew up on a farm, the other grew up scavenging in a desert. I'd anticipate one of those characters to show slightly more base survival competency than the other. Luke going from farm boy to space adventurer is every bit as ludicrous and rapid a transition.

Except that Luke is at least a) shown to be flawed and b) is shown to have growth. Where's Rey going to go from here? She already beat Ren. She going to fuck about for the next movie before she fights Snoke?

So Ren's a pushover? What's the 8th movie going to be, Ren jogging to Eye of the Tiger looking for a rematch?

If maiming one primary character and almost killing/capturing a second (for the second time) after being gutshot with one of the most canonically powerful infantry weapons in the Star Wars universe makes him a "pushover", then sure. I do appreciate you've got a narrative to sustain here.

Excuses don't fly on the dark side and they don't fly for narratives. Ren lost on his first outing, that's reserved for minibosses and Saturday morning cartoon villains, not major antagonists. Hux seems to be the only one worth anything. Ren loses to some no name upstart in a duel, Phasma gets Boba Fett'd, we'll have to see if Snoke is threatening.

A jerkish character, which is what Han was portrayed as.

Again, you keep posting quotes of Han snapping at people who directly criticize him, which is supporting my argument. I'm not sure if you just agree at this point and want to give me a hand, or what's happening, but it's beginning to feel very circular. I look forward to the next quote were someone insults Han and he snaps at them.

Was he being insulted when he said he doesn't take orders?

 

[WolfThomas]

Anything is possible, but due to Rey's (obvious) parentage, there would be a danger of Finn being a "second string Jedi" unless some crazy ass shenanigans occur with her going Dark Side, and really there should be a rational limit on "Skywalkers Gone Wild".

Finn would be better served as a character with his own arc.

It's a possibility sure but there's other options. We could see Finn journey as an every man Jedi. Instead of having the force exclusive to a Skywalker lineage. That wouldn't even require a Darkside Rey. She can do the chosen hero stuff, while he could do other stuff.

I don't see how him having the force, precludes him from his own character arc.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Excuses don't fly on the dark side and they don't fly for narratives. Ren lost on his first outing, that's reserved for minibosses...

Oh my word. Alright Crimson, this has been elucidating as to your perspective on film. I guess we can call it here. Happy Holidays and what not.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Excuses don't fly on the dark side and they don't fly for narratives. Ren lost on his first outing, that's reserved for minibosses...

Oh my word. Alright Crimson, this has been elucidating as to your perspective on film. I guess we can call it here. Happy Holidays and what not.

Sorry that I expect major villains to be threatening? The fight was fun to watch, but there was no doubt in my mind that Rey was going to win and Ren is going to have to work to be threatening again.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sorry that I expect major villains to be threatening? The fight was fun to watch, but there was no doubt in my mind that Rey was going to win and Ren is going to have to work to be threatening again.

I have bad news for you...

Spoiler

The good guys are probably going to emerge victorious at the end of the third film, too. =(

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Sorry that I expect major villains to be threatening? The fight was fun to watch, but there was no doubt in my mind that Rey was going to win and Ren is going to have to work to be threatening again.

I have bad news for you...

Spoiler

The good guys are probably going to emerge victorious at the end of the third film, too. =(

By the looks of it they'll just win everything forever. The villains may as well descend into slapstick.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

By the looks of it they'll just win everything forever. The villains may as well descend into slapstick.

That's actually the working title for Episode IX. "The Heroes Win Everything Forever". It's part of Disney's new direction.

I personally was disgusted when I went to see the two Avengers films and the heroes won THERE too. AND in all the stand alone Marvel films.

My expectations were a Star Wars film more in line with "Seven" or "Irreversible" or "Requiem for a Dream", but instead we got this "Heroes winning/space fantasy" claptrap. What is this studio even thinking?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

By the looks of it they'll just win everything forever. The villains may as well descend into slapstick.

That's actually the working title for Episode IX. "The Heroes Win Everything Forever". It's part of Disney's new direction.

I personally was disgusted when I went to see the two Avengers films and the heroes won THERE too. AND in all the stand alone Marvel films.

My expectations were a Star Wars film more in line with "Seven" or "Irreversible" or "Requiem for a Dream", but instead we got this "Heroes winning/space fantasy" claptrap. What is this studio even thinking?

Unknown captain, I was personally mortified when the Avengers got their shit wrecked by the villain. It implied that the heroes were fallible and had an actual obstacle to overcome instead of just getting what they needed when they needed it. I mean, I don't want there to be a chance that anything could go wrong for the heroes.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Unknown captain, I was personally mortified when the Avengers got their shit wrecked by the villain. It implied that the heroes were fallible and had an actual obstacle to overcome instead of just getting what they needed when they needed it. I mean, I don't want there to be a chance that anything could go wrong for the heroes.

I was excited when they encountered some mild obstacles during the course of the film's running time, thinking this would finally be the punishing/gritty/everyone dies superhero film of our imaginations, only to see them band together and easily overcome them at the end without casualty or meaningful pathos beyond the extensive property damage that is de rigueur in a superhero film.

Hell can you believe it...even in Nolan's supposedly "gritty" Batman films, BATMAN IS VICTORIOUS EVERY TIME. Totally took the piss out of all the villains when he won. How is the Joker ever going to work as an antagonist after this?

Miniboss, maybe.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Unknown captain, I was personally mortified when the Avengers got their shit wrecked by the villain. It implied that the heroes were fallible and had an actual obstacle to overcome instead of just getting what they needed when they needed it. I mean, I don't want there to be a chance that anything could go wrong for the heroes.

I was excited when they encountered some mild obstacles during the course of the film's running time, thinking this would finally be the punishing/gritty/everyone dies superhero film of our imaginations, only to see them band together and easily overcome them at the end without casualty or meaningful pathos beyond the extensive property damage that is de rigueur in a superhero film.

Hell can you believe it...even in Nolan's supposedly "gritty" Batman films, BATMAN IS VICTORIOUS EVERY TIME. Totally took the piss out of all the villains when he won. How is the Joker ever going to work as an antagonist after this?

Miniboss, maybe.

You say that like Tony hasn't been scarred by the events of Avengers 1 and had it play out in Avengers 2 and that it's not going to come up within Civil War. You're talking like Batman didn't lose his girl. You're talking like Captain America didn't lose most everyone he knew when he got frozen. This is the primary antagonist to the protagonists losing in the first act. This usually doesn't go well for the antagonist in question.