I think i just conclusively proved fate or a soul exists - just for fun discussion

[Mogg01]

I figure that regardless of what we can know or not know, that partical DOES have a speed and a location, regardless of if we can know it or not. It still follows laws.

OR else every tiny ounce of free will is because of the tiny leeway in location or momentun, a margin of uncertainty if you will, as small as a plank... That seems very miniscule.

This is, in fact, completely wrong, which is the problem with your entire argument. Not only can we not know both momentum and position perfectly, but particles cannot have them both perfectly defined at the same time. If you had actually read the article, you would have known that. I can prove it to you, and the article in fact does, but only if you've taken some fairly advanced math and physics, which it is clear you have not. For further research that you will not do, look up either wave/particle duality or the dual slit experiment. Both will give strong evidence that the universe is not deterministic, but rather is based on probability. Which means, in short, that you can not predict anything perfectly. Ever.

I am not, in fact, an atheist, I just hate people who do no research on a subject then claim that they have proved something profound. Seriously, if it was that easy, don't you think physicists would have mentioned it already?

Im actually aware of the duel slit experiment. It proved a single photon was in two places at once. No need to jump down my throat for asking a single question. I expected to be argued with. I didnt come here to preach like a prophet. I came here to be proved wrong so i could explore a more accurate view and better my own knowlegde. Or to reason a better solution. I actually didnt consider that could prove the universe is based on probability. And after realising this and reading your article i see it is. Tnanks, actually its a good read. You seemed to make an account JUST for this, and to be honest, im flattered. Its nice to see smart people actually try and educate others rather than insult or belittle. Ill revise my thinking.

Yes, clearly the account that was made a year and a half ago was made just for you. And I wouldn't have jumped down your throat about this, but the same points were raised, and you didn't do the research they suggested. Next time, do the research, and then people won't have to tell you you're wrong about everything you've said. Repeatedly.

 

[Timedraven 117]

i believe we hava a "fate" not everything is set in stone i go by a bit of eldar "fate is like a tree" i kinda forgot the rest but i believe in 1 thing i know will happen to all us "WE WILL ALL DIE, NO MATTER WHAT EVEN IF YOU ARE A DAMN VAMPIRE YOU WILL DIE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER." but it all matters what you do in life

 

[Sniperyeti]

Have a look at chaos theory. A completely deterministic pattern can still be absolutely unpredictable, which leads to your definition of 'free will' needing to be a lot clearer.

EDIT: And damn it man they're spelt 'particles'

 

[Liudeius]

Cells generate electrical current by... moving atoms. Mostly by moving Na ions over a membrane.

However the brain is a closed system.

 

[dakorok]

This argument was basically presented in B.F. Skinner's Walden Two, so this is really nothing new. The problem with this argument is that, as of right now, you can't predict any particular action. One can only explain after the fact, all the details that had an impact on the decision.

 

[thethingthatlurks]

Just a side note, but this happens to be a major pet peeve of mine: PARTICLES CANNOT EXIST IN TWO PLACES AT THE SAME TIME AS PER QUANTUM PHYSICS! No, that doesn't happen, but sadly I don't have time to tell the offenders in this thread otherwise individually. If some books says otherwise, the book is wrong. Same for wikipedia, or any other source of information. Quantum physics is weird, but not quite that weird...

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

I've had this argument with friends many times and the conclusion we always come to is thus:

There is no way of knowing without knowing everything about the human brain, which we don't.

 

[thethingthatlurks]

Cells generate electrical current by... moving atoms. Mostly by moving Na ions over a membrane.

However the brain is a closed system.

No, it's not. Transporting ions across membranes is a major reason for why your metabolism is efficient enough to keep you alive.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

SNIP

Well im sorry ive pissed you off. This was just your first post as all, i didnt see how old it was. Welcome to the escapist posting, congratz on that. Was just a fun idea, shared it. Next time ill do a little prior research before i post :3 Just wanted some opinions ^.^ In the edit ive said im wrong, i accept that. Thanks for spreading the knowlegde. I like being told im wrong, and of course im going to question what im told, i like to explore given explanations. I mean i was sure mine is wrong, almost entirely, im no expert (blatantly) i just wanted to see if my basic idea had a nouget of interesting thought in it. Some people enjoyed reading it through. Im sorry you didnt. Hopefully you enjoyed putting me in my place, for you have succeeded.

 

[the rye]

I was just thinking about fate today and i think i have, unless the entity some call a "soul" or the "spark of life" exists, proven that all our actions are predetermined. Please read my points. And please prove me wrong. I feel kinda crap knowing all my actions are predetermined.

From the second the universe was born, all particals in existance were created and given a speed, a direction and a mass. Now we can predict what two particals will do when they collide. Perfectly, using the laws of physics. Meaning from the second the universe was created every particals movement and collisions, and such ALL subsquent collisions are all 100% predicatable, assuming you had the computing power or brainpower to do this.

In your brain when you make a decisions, everything in your brain functions, each individual cell, because of collisions and electrical impulses. All of these are predictable. If i knew the location and speed of every single atom in your brain, i could predict everything you could think and do. Forever. If i knew the location and speed of every partical when the big bang started i could put them all into a super computer, apply physics, and let it go. And perfectly simulate the universe as we know it, from beggining to end.

Unless people have a soul or an essence or some thing that makes us do truly random things, that can supernaturely divert particals in our brain to do multiple possible actions, everything we do is set in stone. From the second the big bang started. Unless something stops these particals from taking their predetermined paths from the second the big bang gave them some energy, everything in the entire universe can be predicted with 100% accuracy in theory. Nothing is really random. Its a bit depressing to be honest.

Discussion: After reading this do you believe in fate? Im not sure i do. I think ive just proved we have a soul. Either that or fate. Do you believe in free will because of some divine force. As an athiest this makes my head hurt. I think im gonna go do something fun and never think about it again. Im already going to anyway. Its predicted.

EDIT: People seem obsessed with the fact this tiny 10 min thought has somehow dominated my life. It has not. I am calm. This is a tiny musing. Stop telling me to calm down. You just come away looking really really weird... I dont realy mind either way. Its like death being inevitable. I dont really think about it.

EDIT: Ive also been proven wrong a few times by the duel slat test AND the uncertainty theory. Dont bother posting them. I admit i got it wrong. Fun thought though.

I'm not sure if your aware but there is a branch of philsophy that advocates free doesn't exist because of something similar to what you describe, if you are not familiar with it i suggest reading up on it, as it makes a compelling argument against free will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism, oh and i should note even if the universe or our "soul" was random this would not equate free will.

 

[Gaming King]

Science can't explain everything, and how do we know we can predict all particles and crap? We don't. They're too small to see.

 

[thelastgentleman]

Hmm lets have a try...I can prove everything in existence in one Word/Theory ARE YOU READY????


EXISTENTIALISM

got it? ok.

GAME

SET

MATCH...good day to you sirs

Yay proof by assertion? Heh.

Its the only way 0_o

 

[thethingthatlurks]

Science can't explain everything, and how do we know we can predict all particles and crap? We don't. They're too small to see.

Being smaller than 400nm has surprisingly little effect on our understanding. Yeah, we can understand those damn things pretty well, actually...

 

[inglioti]

I read the second line. Quantum physics deals with probabilities, and in our current model of understanding, we can only deduce probabilities. That pretty much underlies your entire argument.

Yeah actually your entire argument made me face palm.

Science can't explain everything, and how do we know we can predict all particles and crap? We don't. They're too small to see.

And... Just... And.... Just...

 

[Reallink]

While the idea is valid, it is kind of old. My physics teacher explained it to our geography class (?! He was filling in and loved to go off topic) about three years ago. So if you could know everything you theoretically could. I think, I may be wrong though. But it assumes that the universe is unchanging. I.E if interdimensional travel was possible, you couldn't have measured someone entering from another dimension. Or maybe you could.

I just don't know about this one

 

[Liudeius]

However the brain is a closed system.

No, it's not. Transporting ions across membranes is a major reason for why your metabolism is efficient enough to keep you alive.

As I said in my initial post, I don't mean a true closed system. But it isn't as if nitrogen atoms crashing into your head are effecting electric signals.

 

[CplDustov]

Chaos theory would tell us that the slightest in imperfections and deviations it some systems create unpredictable results. Over time that changes a great deal of things. Though even if things were totally deterministic... why does that make you feel so bad?