"Don't be mistaken: we love JRPGs -- we want them to do well."phar said:
Quoted directly from the article.
IGN's Top 10 Ways to Fix JRPGs...
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Quoted directly from the article.
Yes those archetypes we keep seeing over and over agai.... wait.... What the shit was that last thing he said? A bird dude that uses a poison mace and keeps a smaller bird dude as an adorable pet?!?! WHAT?!?!?
Am I missing something here, or is that seriously a cliche now? Also bird people are awesome.
The main problems I have with JRPGs are the combat systems, the story being too cliche, and the anime style making me want to kill myself.
The biggest problem, as IGN agrees, is turn-based combat. Not just turn-based combat, but the same recycled bullcrap we've been playing since the first Final Fantasy game. It's so old, so boring, so pitiful compared to many WRPG battle systems... I don't have a clue why it still hasn't evolved.
The biggest problem, as IGN agrees, is turn-based combat. Not just turn-based combat, but the same recycled bullcrap we've been playing since the first Final Fantasy game. It's so old, so boring, so pitiful compared to many WRPG battle systems... I don't have a clue why it still hasn't evolved.
You're confusing "challenge" with "time sink".Onyx Oblivion said:
Western RPGs have managed to be perfectly challenging by simply not allowing you to save during battles and making important battles difficult. Having the player loose large amounts of progress by dying isn't about "challenge", it's about artificially extending the game's length.
I think Nintendo does it right by leaving the marathon dungeons on the side where players who have no interest in them don't have to do them.
Those reasons are why I do not play JRPGs.
Although I extend the dull leveling up and turn-based combat to every RPG. Yawn.
Although I extend the dull leveling up and turn-based combat to every RPG. Yawn.
Alright kids, let's go through this list, okay? Keep in mind, the text says "We're here to fix that". Here we go:
10.) People Live Here?
WRPGs don't feel much more 'alive', actually. Especially in the games you mentioned, the ones by Bethesda (which is perfectly okay in Fallout's case). This point is less a problem with the developers not wanting it, but with the hardware not being able to do it.
9.) The Only Good Filler is Jelly in Donuts
Honestly, I haven't seen this at all in JRPGs, but then again, I haven't played most of Square Enix' games. Possibly only found in those. But Square Enix is not the only japanese game developer making RPGs.
8.) Invest in Presentation
This point seems valid to me, but if you're so clever, why didn't you propose anything? The way you say it, it can't be that difficult, can it? At least tell us who told us their story in a way that's affordable to any developer without having to resort to things like that?
7.) The Road Less Traveled
I like big games, and I like my sandbox. But many people don't. Especially if your sandbox only contains 'collect 10 scorpion stings'-quests. Stuff like this doesn't neccessarily improve a game. As No More Heroes shows, (not an RPG, granted) it can even make a game worse.
6.) Cliches are for Chumps
Similar to your #10: True, but not a problem with JRPGs in particular, but this time more a problem with (mainstream) gaming in general.
5.) Voice Acting Approaches
True.
4.) I Feel So Alone
Wrong. But I really like RPGs with offline-multiplayer, both western and eastern developers should do more of those.
3.) No More Save Points
Again, I agree, but only because Fallout 3 has made me get addicted to autosave. I never felt this to be such a big problem. You're just being whiny on this one.
2.) Write a New Story, Mkay?
Square Enix games problem again - as a professional editor, you should know the following:
Japanese Role Playing Game does not equal Square Enix Role Playing Game.
There are a lot of games outside with a different story. You don't even have to look for them that hard, you named an example yourself, here's another one: Shadow Hearts. Set in World War I, dark tone, still humorous, interesting (and adult) characters.
1.) Battle Systems: Kick It Up a Notch
Okay, good point - let's kick it up a notch! Like... You didn't give any example of who did it better, so I'll just assume you mean Fallout 3's VATS system (due to the screenshot). The same VATS the original Fallout did over a decade ago? Don't get me wrong, combined with the real-time battles it's a good fighting mechanic (in my book at least), but your point was to do something new. I understand you're no game developers and you don't have to come up with something, but can't you at least give us an example of who did it better in the last years?
10.) People Live Here?
WRPGs don't feel much more 'alive', actually. Especially in the games you mentioned, the ones by Bethesda (which is perfectly okay in Fallout's case). This point is less a problem with the developers not wanting it, but with the hardware not being able to do it.
9.) The Only Good Filler is Jelly in Donuts
Honestly, I haven't seen this at all in JRPGs, but then again, I haven't played most of Square Enix' games. Possibly only found in those. But Square Enix is not the only japanese game developer making RPGs.
8.) Invest in Presentation
This point seems valid to me, but if you're so clever, why didn't you propose anything? The way you say it, it can't be that difficult, can it? At least tell us who told us their story in a way that's affordable to any developer without having to resort to things like that?
7.) The Road Less Traveled
I like big games, and I like my sandbox. But many people don't. Especially if your sandbox only contains 'collect 10 scorpion stings'-quests. Stuff like this doesn't neccessarily improve a game. As No More Heroes shows, (not an RPG, granted) it can even make a game worse.
6.) Cliches are for Chumps
Similar to your #10: True, but not a problem with JRPGs in particular, but this time more a problem with (mainstream) gaming in general.
5.) Voice Acting Approaches
True.
4.) I Feel So Alone
Wrong. But I really like RPGs with offline-multiplayer, both western and eastern developers should do more of those.
3.) No More Save Points
Again, I agree, but only because Fallout 3 has made me get addicted to autosave. I never felt this to be such a big problem. You're just being whiny on this one.
2.) Write a New Story, Mkay?
Square Enix games problem again - as a professional editor, you should know the following:
Japanese Role Playing Game does not equal Square Enix Role Playing Game.
There are a lot of games outside with a different story. You don't even have to look for them that hard, you named an example yourself, here's another one: Shadow Hearts. Set in World War I, dark tone, still humorous, interesting (and adult) characters.
1.) Battle Systems: Kick It Up a Notch
Okay, good point - let's kick it up a notch! Like... You didn't give any example of who did it better, so I'll just assume you mean Fallout 3's VATS system (due to the screenshot). The same VATS the original Fallout did over a decade ago? Don't get me wrong, combined with the real-time battles it's a good fighting mechanic (in my book at least), but your point was to do something new. I understand you're no game developers and you don't have to come up with something, but can't you at least give us an example of who did it better in the last years?
He was just using some WRPGs as examples of games that have solved these problems. And to quote the article again,phar said:
"Let's take a look at the top ten fixes to save the JRPG legacy, without losing that special something that makes them unique."
Besides, I fail to see how creating a better save system or making the games less linear would make them lose their unique charm. I really don't understand why you guys are showing so much hatred towards them. This is just their opinion, and your welcome to disagree with it.
Virtually all of the best games (not video) in the world are turn-based. It's a timeless, near perfect framework for a wide variety of gameplay. Turn-based RPG combat is extremely diverse and constantly evolving. Compare Fallout to Persona 4 and you'll find little to compare other than both combat systems being turn-based.MetallicaRulez0 said:
To imply that all or most JRPGs use a system unchanged from Final Fantasy 1 is patently absurd. You're either exaggerating intentionally or displaying an inability to read into the underlying mechanics and simply assume the system is identical because you are selecting "Fight" from a menu.
PS: 90% of those "many WRPG battle systems" are turn-based. It's simply accomplished with behind-the-scenes mechanics giving the illusion of a real-time combat system.
When I'm playing a JRPG the biggest thing that bugs me is missable items/spells/weapons/characters/whatever. some of the way to get the better (and very useful) stuff are so abstract and convoluted that nobody can be expected to ever find or even know about it withou a strategy guide open for the whole game, but then you feel cheap and lame. In ocarina of time, you can get every single collectable in the game right up to the point where you waltz in on ganondorf. not true in JRPGS.
<url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkkZ3ZBcrjM>They <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3x9m2Idqqo>have <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSWdlV9-gWk>evolved.MetallicaRulez0 said:
And that's not getting into ATB evolutions, <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHC4k3jwZVo>small and <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm1m93mCmzo>large.
make it less clunky feeling! an example of a 'clunky' jrpg is infinit undiscovery. not once was i not annoyed about the lack of smoothness in the walking and moving, for i was constantly runnying into walls and small rocks you could easily walk over in real life. also, invisible walls are a no-no. my idea of the perfect JRPG is the FIRST kingdom hearts game. though a bit dated, it still was and is a lot of fun, no matter the flaws, because it was so smooth and atmospheric.
just my ideas.
p.s. the kingdom hearts combat system was a thing of beauty- also playing onto the 'flow' of the game.
just my ideas.
p.s. the kingdom hearts combat system was a thing of beauty- also playing onto the 'flow' of the game.
I absolutely hated dirge of cerberus :/.Kheapathic said:Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus is about as close as you'll get.Normalgamer said:I've always wanted to see a first-person JRPG, you could switch which character you were currently controlling, and so on and so forth, but it played like an FPS only with swords magic teenage boys/girls with emo problems and some bad guy.
Sadly not many people probably share this sentiment.
I enjoy turn based combat, it makes the game easier to pick up and put down. If a UFO lands outside and aliens come out shooting, I don't have to worry about losing my game while I go fight them off. Not to mention it's a friendlier learning curve as you don't have to think on your feet while Hitokiri is busy wasting your party.Emphraim said:
I'm looking more towards Fallout 3 with swords and teammates...and spells
.
God, so much JRPG nonsense in such a short period of time. I don't understand this incessant hate towards this sub genre or why those who dislike it so much must insist on bringing it up. You are not clever for doing so, you are just making an ass out of yourself. This list is terrible and just comes off as saying "make them more like WRPG's". If you don't like the damn games, don't spread pointless hate mongering and keep it to yourself, you're not going persuade people to stop playing the games just because you say you don't like them.
IGN may have had good intentions, but they come off as sounding ignorant and doing nothing more than feeding the fire that fuels the JRPG hate bandwagon. The terrible generalization of the genre they exhibit it woefully stupid and shows a level of ignorance that I see far too often on this site.
10.) People Live Here?
The towns and NPC's in either sub genre are subject to this. WRPG's feel no less robotic than JRPG's, the only difference there being is possible extensive dialogue that contributes nothing to the overall storyline. NPC's still have predefined things to say, and most of them still meander or stand about the same general area. If you want JRPG's this "fix" this "problem", then it should be "fixed" in WRPG's as well.
9.) The Only Good Filler is Jelly in Donuts
What the hell kind of JRPG's have you been playing?
I have hardly if ever come across these examples of filler you are referring to. Some back tracking is fine if it is relevant to the plot, but I have never seen any sort of filler in the way they put it. This case is so rare it shouldn't be mentioned in the first place, it's just that stupid and irrelevant. And grinding your party to a specific point in order to progress? yea if you don't know how to properly strategize or play, and are simply too lazy to figure out how the work the fundamental principals of the game.
8.) Invest in Presentation
I can't recall the last time I came across and ugly or visually unpleasing JRPG. Not everything needs to be running on the latest most powerful graphics engine to look visually or aesthetically pleasing. Presentation is an important aspect of a game, but there are different forms for different reasons. You know what? I'd rather like to see MORE 2d spirte animation used, or MORE games with kingdom hearts aesthetic to it because it has character,and it's pleasing to the eye. Presentation must fit the game in question and more or less reflects the tone of the game. You know why Disgaea still uses sprites? because it fits the cartoonish nature of the game!!
7.) The Road Less Traveled
Freedom to go anywhere one desires is indeed a nice thing, but freedom without purpose is better left out. We don't need sandbox worlds for every game or every RPG because it's not always necessary. I have always had a firm belief that with greater freedom comes a greater compromise to the overall story. It's greatest problem is that it can be terribly damaging to the overall pacing of the game. If JRPG's want to be clear and concise on where the player must go then let them, it's not detrimental to the overall experience because in the long run, any freedom given is nothing more than an illusion. Exploring is great, I too love to explore, but it's meaningless if there is nothing worth while to it.
6.) Cliches are for Chumps
Cliches and tropes are in every form of media and genre in existence. Everything is guilty of this and using it as one of your "ways to fix JRPG's" is being narrow minded. Cliche's and tropes are fine if used properly as they are the fundamental framework of storytelling for christ sake. Archetypes and the like are there because they are devices they have worked for centuries. Again I am a firm believer that it's not the cliche or trope that's the problem, but how it is handled and presented that determines whether its good or bad.
5.) Voice Acting Approaches
I can agree with this, even if I have enough patience to sit through voice acting that other seem to not be able to.
4.) I Feel So Alone
No...just no. This modern thought that everything must have some sort of online or multilayer component is ridiculous. The last thing JRPG's, or any RPG for that matter, need is multiplayer. They have always been something of a personal experience and that is what makes them all the more engaging because it's just you and the game. I am willing to TRY multiplayer in an RPG if it's done in a well thought out way, but it's just unnecessary that there is not much more to say.
3.) No More Save Points
There is nothing wrong with save points, the problem lies in the player. Quick saving is lazy and removes any sort of punishment. Like someone said in a previous post, it's pretty much akin to having god mode on. Save points have always been placed appropriately in every game I have played, and have never had any problem with them. Death should come with a punishment and should be an undesirable outcome for the player and should carry some weight. Quick save makes thing terribly easy and turns death into a mere joke that carries no consequences what so ever.
2.) Write a New Story, Mkay?
There is plenty of originality, stop looking at the usual culprits you lazy, lazy writers. Every games plot can be boiled down into very general terms, stop confusing basic story telling devices with unoriginality. I have seen plenty of different stories and once again, it's how it's presented that matters. Don't think WRPG's are exempt from this, hell they are bigger offenders of this crime, if not as much as JRPG's.
1.) Battle Systems: Kick It Up a Notch
There is nothing wrong with turn based combat, it is a fundamentally sound concept and it works. People still enjoy turn based combat for various reasons. Some may like the more slow and methodical approach and reflex based systems. I enjoy all forms of combat, as it seems most people who complain about turn based combat leave me to assume they lack any sort of patience. Real time combat is good, but most of the time there is a feeling that a lot of depth has been removed at the price of having it. Besides, WRPG's have had turn based combat as well and I hardly hear anyone complain about it which just makes me shake my head at the stupidity of it all. Many of them were simply dice roll mechanics disguised to look real time. If you don't like turn based combat don't play the damn game then, so you have no right to complain.
IGN may have had good intentions, but they come off as sounding ignorant and doing nothing more than feeding the fire that fuels the JRPG hate bandwagon. The terrible generalization of the genre they exhibit it woefully stupid and shows a level of ignorance that I see far too often on this site.
10.) People Live Here?
The towns and NPC's in either sub genre are subject to this. WRPG's feel no less robotic than JRPG's, the only difference there being is possible extensive dialogue that contributes nothing to the overall storyline. NPC's still have predefined things to say, and most of them still meander or stand about the same general area. If you want JRPG's this "fix" this "problem", then it should be "fixed" in WRPG's as well.
9.) The Only Good Filler is Jelly in Donuts
What the hell kind of JRPG's have you been playing?
I have hardly if ever come across these examples of filler you are referring to. Some back tracking is fine if it is relevant to the plot, but I have never seen any sort of filler in the way they put it. This case is so rare it shouldn't be mentioned in the first place, it's just that stupid and irrelevant. And grinding your party to a specific point in order to progress? yea if you don't know how to properly strategize or play, and are simply too lazy to figure out how the work the fundamental principals of the game.
8.) Invest in Presentation
I can't recall the last time I came across and ugly or visually unpleasing JRPG. Not everything needs to be running on the latest most powerful graphics engine to look visually or aesthetically pleasing. Presentation is an important aspect of a game, but there are different forms for different reasons. You know what? I'd rather like to see MORE 2d spirte animation used, or MORE games with kingdom hearts aesthetic to it because it has character,and it's pleasing to the eye. Presentation must fit the game in question and more or less reflects the tone of the game. You know why Disgaea still uses sprites? because it fits the cartoonish nature of the game!!
7.) The Road Less Traveled
Freedom to go anywhere one desires is indeed a nice thing, but freedom without purpose is better left out. We don't need sandbox worlds for every game or every RPG because it's not always necessary. I have always had a firm belief that with greater freedom comes a greater compromise to the overall story. It's greatest problem is that it can be terribly damaging to the overall pacing of the game. If JRPG's want to be clear and concise on where the player must go then let them, it's not detrimental to the overall experience because in the long run, any freedom given is nothing more than an illusion. Exploring is great, I too love to explore, but it's meaningless if there is nothing worth while to it.
6.) Cliches are for Chumps
Cliches and tropes are in every form of media and genre in existence. Everything is guilty of this and using it as one of your "ways to fix JRPG's" is being narrow minded. Cliche's and tropes are fine if used properly as they are the fundamental framework of storytelling for christ sake. Archetypes and the like are there because they are devices they have worked for centuries. Again I am a firm believer that it's not the cliche or trope that's the problem, but how it is handled and presented that determines whether its good or bad.
5.) Voice Acting Approaches
I can agree with this, even if I have enough patience to sit through voice acting that other seem to not be able to.
4.) I Feel So Alone
No...just no. This modern thought that everything must have some sort of online or multilayer component is ridiculous. The last thing JRPG's, or any RPG for that matter, need is multiplayer. They have always been something of a personal experience and that is what makes them all the more engaging because it's just you and the game. I am willing to TRY multiplayer in an RPG if it's done in a well thought out way, but it's just unnecessary that there is not much more to say.
3.) No More Save Points
There is nothing wrong with save points, the problem lies in the player. Quick saving is lazy and removes any sort of punishment. Like someone said in a previous post, it's pretty much akin to having god mode on. Save points have always been placed appropriately in every game I have played, and have never had any problem with them. Death should come with a punishment and should be an undesirable outcome for the player and should carry some weight. Quick save makes thing terribly easy and turns death into a mere joke that carries no consequences what so ever.
2.) Write a New Story, Mkay?
There is plenty of originality, stop looking at the usual culprits you lazy, lazy writers. Every games plot can be boiled down into very general terms, stop confusing basic story telling devices with unoriginality. I have seen plenty of different stories and once again, it's how it's presented that matters. Don't think WRPG's are exempt from this, hell they are bigger offenders of this crime, if not as much as JRPG's.
1.) Battle Systems: Kick It Up a Notch
There is nothing wrong with turn based combat, it is a fundamentally sound concept and it works. People still enjoy turn based combat for various reasons. Some may like the more slow and methodical approach and reflex based systems. I enjoy all forms of combat, as it seems most people who complain about turn based combat leave me to assume they lack any sort of patience. Real time combat is good, but most of the time there is a feeling that a lot of depth has been removed at the price of having it. Besides, WRPG's have had turn based combat as well and I hardly hear anyone complain about it which just makes me shake my head at the stupidity of it all. Many of them were simply dice roll mechanics disguised to look real time. If you don't like turn based combat don't play the damn game then, so you have no right to complain.
