I'm a vegan and I come in peace...

[Spartanmk1]

Spoiler

Yeah, unless you are some wildman going without, well, just about everything, then your not really a vegan. But, if you are a wildman, I bet you that your hunting your own food.

 

[Syzygy23]

I'll reiterate what I said on Bobs video comment section:

I am a HUGE supporter of animal rights! I believe ALL of Gods' creatures have the RIGHT to remain DELICIOUS.

/comment

Also, I know how to save all the whales once and for all:

Whale Burgers.

Think about it, we eat hamburgers, which are made from cows, which reap huge profits for the corporations who farm them, so they go to great lengths and spend billions of dollars making sure that cows are not only nowhere NEAR extinct, but incredibly common as far as animals go.

The only way to SAVE the whales is to EAT the whales! U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!

 

[Lenin211]

People saying that they do it because it's natural are just giving excuses for a weak moral line. Unless of course they don't care -- that is, I expect, most people.

Why should we care? Why is it moral not to eat animals? Why should I not be able to eat bacon if I feel like it?

So what if it isn't necessary to eat meat? We aren't required to eat ice cream or play video games. We do this anyway. Why? Because we want to and we can. Animals are not sapient, they cannot understand our motivations or actions. Animals have always been used by humans for work and for meat. Why should we stop this? Do you think that the world would be a better place without people eating meat.

Also, I like the ad hominem attacks on meat eaters. Nice way to gain credibility.

 

[Aprilgold]

Hi forum!

After watching MovieBob's recent Big Picture episode on the PeTA/Super Mario controversy, I'm curious about people's stance on animal rights here. What I found curious is that Bob asserted he supports animal rights, in that he abstains from products like fur and boycotts companies that test on animals. On the other hand though, eating animals does not seem to be problematic for him.

Just to be clear, I'm vegan myself and a very strong believer in animal rights, but I'm not a fan of PeTA and I absolutely agree with Bob's disapproval of their hysterical and sensationalist publicity work. Also, while I feel that being vegan is the most ethical way of living with animals, I do not view myself as being better than meat-eaters, nor do I think that eating meat makes you a bad person. Please don't see my opinion as an affront to your lifestyle and worldview. I don't mean to be hostile. My goal is to make people question some things we have been taught about the animals we eat, without shoving my own morality down their throats.

So let me just very briefly outline why I chose to become vegan:

Human beings are omnivores

You can stop there buddy, what exactly did we evolve from, well, common thing is monkies, so therefore were highly advanced monkies, argo were animals. Why should he have problem with eating meat, its like a lion in Africa just takes down a human, do you think that lion there will think twice about eating you and leaving scraps for the hyenas, hell no, he'll just do it.

I don't care that your vegan man, but you shouldn't judge what I eat, I don't eat 90 pounds of pure cow every day and that I'm the reason we shouldn't be allowed to eat meat. I agree on one point that we should cut back on our meat intake. But since were quoting here. "Do you think that the cow we just released from that farm will be happier being eaten alive by a predator, thanking god that it wasn't eaten by us?"

Its your right to any opinion you want anywhere on anything, and I respect that your vegan. But don't call me a ass because I chose something different then you, because then it becomes one big giant ball of hate. Don't say meat eaters, say people. Don't say that its more ethical to live with animals is not to eat them since your parading a sense of 'I secretly want your bones ripped from your body so you can feel what just happened to that pig, but I don't have to because I eat cabbage.'

I eat meat because I like it.

The first time a steak looks up at me and tells me it doesn't want to be eaten is the time when turn vegan.

As that is never likely to happen, I guess i'll continue with this full english breakfast i'm about to cook.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

And there you go vegans, millions of animals die to feed you so now your high horse comes tumbling down.

Guess you don't have a moral high ground at all.

thats actually a good point... and i suppose if we stuck to one species it wouldnt be such a massive impact.

Damn, that was a very legit point. Would this rule also apply, that per one head of cabbage you just depraved a mouse family of cabbage?

"It is very, very VERY easy to just eat a slab of meat in front of you, and not care. But Vegetarians actually take the time to consider where that steak came from. The basic idea here is this: The vegetarians intelligence didn't just appear because they don't eat meat, It's from the mindset they possessed which made them realize where that steak came from "

So what you're saying is, vegetarians are smarter because they 'realize' that steak comes from cows? And what, everyone else just thinks that farmer brown and his cows make it in their magical workshop like santa and his fucking elves? Yeah... No, not buying it.

No, but the vegetarians actually care where it came from
most people see the steak and say `yep from a cow, not gonna think any more on it.`

Please look at the picture below me.

Spoiler

If you use any of these then you are not a vegan because your consuming a animal, not by eating it, but by having it dissolved into you. There is no such thing as vegan unless you live out in the wildereness with nothing but a wood log, fire, and farm your own food. When you get sick you can't go to the doctor over the fact that your having a animal dissolved into you. You call me stupid because of what I eat, but don't flash a eye when it comes down to small things.

 

[Plazmatic]

{your ok up until this point}
This means that there is no biological need for us to eat meat. We simply feel like eating it.

Therefore, whenever we kill an animal for food, we are essentially deciding that our appetite is more important than that creature's life. We are inflicting deadly violence on a defenseless being, simply for our own pleasure. Personally, I don't think that's ethical behavior.

Now, many people say that nature isn't ethical, that animals brutally kill and eat other animals all the time. That's true, but we are not animals. We are not lions or sharks. Lions or sharks cannot choose *not* to eat meat because they are natural carnivores and couldn't survive on a herbivorous diet. Humans, on the other hand, can. We are moral beings and as a result of our morality, we place innumerable restrictions on ourselves for the greater good: We prohibit or disapprove of theft, murder, rape, deception, defamation etc.

So why do we think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them for their flesh?

To sum it up: Just because we *can* eat anything, doesn't necessarily mean that we *should*.

What do you think? I'm very curious to know.

First you say this

"Just to be clear, I'm vegan myself and a very strong believer in animal rights, but I'm not a fan of PeTA and I absolutely agree with Bob's disapproval of their hysterical and sensationalist publicity work. Also, while I feel that being vegan is the most ethical way of living with animals, I do not view myself as being better than meat-eaters, nor do I think that eating meat makes you a bad person. Please don't see my opinion as an affront to your lifestyle and worldview. I don't mean to be hostile. My goal is to make people question some things we have been taught about the animals we eat, without shoving my own morality down their throats."

then you say this

"Now, many people say that nature isn't ethical, that animals brutally kill and eat other animals all the time. That's true, but we are not animals. We are not lions or sharks. Lions or sharks cannot choose *not* to eat meat because they are natural carnivores and couldn't survive on a herbivorous diet. Humans, on the other hand, can. We are moral beings and as a result of our morality, we place innumerable restrictions on ourselves for the greater good: We prohibit or disapprove of theft, murder, rape, deception, defamation etc.

So why do we think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them for their flesh?

To sum it up: Just because we *can* eat anything, doesn't necessarily mean that we *should*"

it is obvious you think the exact opposite of what you say you did in the first part. Don't come walking in acting like a white night when you're a angry trojan horse with a "made in china" sticker slapped on to it.

You expect people to respect your views when you obviously don't respect ours, and not only that, you tried to say that you did and completely contradicted your self effectively lying to us.

well any any way on to the stuff your wrong about. People cannot survive on ONLY on plants (w e are not herbivore and we do not have the necessary organs to survive on only plant matter, so like carnivores we actually have to eat other animals who do, and have the proper vitamins that are obtained from the process). however people HAVE survived only on meat. Most doctors recommend that you take vitamin supplements if you have a no meat diet, but scientist had found that vitamin b deficiencies had not been has high among no meat diets as expected. The reason for this was the amount of insect matter found inside the plant matter caused by the harvesting process. In the end you still end up consuming meat.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

That's true, but we are not animals.

yes we are. we are animals, we are just the most advanced species of animals on the planet.

and on the topic of killing animals, if thats the case, of being omnivores, then why don´t animals like small cats live strictly off of catnip? do you think im going to punish my cat if he comes home with a mouse in his mouth.

it´s survival of the fittest. if the animal kingdom can´t keep up with us, they will have to evolve and adapt. do you think lions would start feeling bad for us if they hunted us and ate us? No.

Animals eat other animals, and thats exactly what we are. there´s no reason we should respect and not eat animals that would do the exact same to us given the chance.

You probably missed the point he made about humans being capable of choosing not to eat meat, a moral choice which appears to beyond most animals. So no, the OP isn't blaming animals for eating meat (they are apparently not capable of knowing any reason why they shouldn't), but he blames us for continuing to eat meat even when (unlike all animals) we have the luxury of choosing not to. We are, as you say, animals. But unlike other animals, we aren't starving and we can easily remove meat from our diets. In fact, our choice to eat meat is often less efficient than vegetarianism, due to the inevitable costs of feeding and maintaining livestock (you need room for corn or pastures ,just to feed the cows - room which could have just been used for crops, without the cow business).

"It is very, very VERY easy to just eat a slab of meat in front of you, and not care. But Vegetarians actually take the time to consider where that steak came from. The basic idea here is this: The vegetarians intelligence didn't just appear because they don't eat meat, It's from the mindset they possessed which made them realize where that steak came from "

So what you're saying is, vegetarians are smarter because they 'realize' that steak comes from cows? And what, everyone else just thinks that farmer brown and his cows make it in their magical workshop like santa and his fucking elves? Yeah... No, not buying it.

No, he's saying that vegetarians take the time to weigh up the costs of getting that steak; they come to the rational decision that it isn't worth the added cost of producing beef, or the slaughter of the animal that produced it. Most people don't take that time to make such considerations. All vegetarians do (otherwise, they wouldn't have chosen to become one).

You're doing some hardcore strawmanning that's bordering on self-parody, here. You raise some valid points here and there, but saying things such as eating meat is inherently wrong (eye of the beholder), that animals do it because they don't comprehend morality (instead of, you know, facing death from malnourishment, not to mention the potential destruction herbivores can cause when left unchecked), that meat is an entirely optional part of our diets (it's been proven countless times that we've evolved to eat and rely upon a variety of foods, and cannot get the nutrition meat provides elsewhere naturally, much as we can't get the nutrition some plant matter provides elsewhere naturally) and that vegetarians not only all put cost in mind in their decision to become one, but that it's their sole reasoning is... questionable, at best.

 

[Sethzard]

A lot of the animals that we have eaten are only brought into the world because we want them for food. Therefore if we didn't eat them then they would never be born and from where I stand, being born and then being killed is better than never being born (for the most part)

 

[metal mustache]

Hi forum!

We are moral beings and as a result of our morality, we place innumerable restrictions on ourselves for the greater good: We prohibit or disapprove of theft, murder, rape, deception, defamation etc.

So why do we think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them for their flesh?

What do you think? I'm very curious to know.

In my less empathetic point of view, we put restrictions on ourselves because together we can accomplish fantastic goals. But the most we can accomplish with cows is medium rare steak.

 

[Eri]

but we are not animals.

Sorry, but you're wrong right there. Humans ARE animals.

 

[Loner Jo Jo]

While I can understand some ethical concerns with eating meat, the whole taking a life bit never made sense to me. One, as you mentioned, animals kill each other for survival. While you claim that we are higher beings (which I would disagree with, but whatever), for most people, eating meat is the most efficient way of getting the necessary protein in our diet. Especially when you think of the poorer populations on the planet, they might not have access or means to the proper variety of plants in order to eat well or do not have access to the proper information on nutrition necessary to adopt a vegan lifestyle.

Furthermore, plants are living. Really, no matter what, we have to take away a life in order to survive regardless of diet. Really, plants are the most kind things on the planet; they only live off the energy that the sun provides (barring some unique species like the Venus Fly Trap). The only reason that we don't see eating plants as taking a life is because they can't stare up at you with big brown eyes begging you not to kill their mother or scream in pain while being hunted... at least, not that we can hear.

Now, this being the said, the argument that the way in which animals are treated on most commercials farms now-a-days is cruel and you do not wish to support these sorts of operations makes perfect sense to me. It's noble to take a stand like that. For me, I'll just bury my head in the sand and choose to be unethical. Sad to say, but at least I'm honest.

 

[Conza]

Hi forum!

After watching MovieBob's recent Big Picture episode on the PeTA/Super Mario controversy, I'm curious about people's stance on animal rights here. What I found curious is that Bob asserted he supports animal rights, in that he abstains from products like fur and boycotts companies that test on animals. On the other hand though, eating animals does not seem to be problematic for him.

Just to be clear, I'm vegan myself and a very strong believer in animal rights, but I'm not a fan of PeTA and I absolutely agree with Bob's disapproval of their hysterical and sensationalist publicity work. Also, while I feel that being vegan is the most ethical way of living with animals, I do not view myself as being better than meat-eaters, nor do I think that eating meat makes you a bad person. Please don't see my opinion as an affront to your lifestyle and worldview. I don't mean to be hostile. My goal is to make people question some things we have been taught about the animals we eat, without shoving my own morality down their throats.

So let me just very briefly outline why I chose to become vegan:

Human beings are omnivores, which means that we can eat almost anything. There are many divergent nutritional studies and opinions out there, but the gist seems to be that we can get by equally well on meat- or plant-based diets or any combination thereof,

Hi, yes all very well and good so far, save that last point. Sam Neil told me to eat red meat 3-4 times a week, and Sam Neil doesn't lie! . But adding some of the science to this now, the level of protien and iron obtained from meat is much harder to find in non-meat products... Well if you have a solution to it, than maybe in the last 10 years someones figured it out, but last I checked (late 90s early 00s), meat was the only real viable way to get both (lentils and other nuts or tofu didn't cut the mustard then). Would be interesting to see how people try these days if you have an answer.

as long as we spend some time thinking about what nutrients we need and where to get them.

This means that there is no biological need for us to eat meat. We simply feel like eating it.

Therefore, whenever we kill an animal for food, we are essentially deciding that our appetite is more important than that creature's life. We are inflicting deadly violence on a defenseless being, simply for our own pleasure. Personally, I don't think that's ethical behavior.

Sorry to interrupt again, but, that's just how the food chain works, we're at the top, we get to pick and chose to eat whatever we want, and the ethics kinda don't exist, because many animals eat other animals to survive as well - your next point would be that we don't need meat to survive, but the same studies that tell of its dietry enhancements, show that our brains grow from eating red meat, so as a species, again give me new information if you have it (link might save time and energy, up to you, would prefer link as well if you don't mind).

Now, many people say that nature isn't ethical, that animals brutally kill and eat other animals all the time. That's true, but we are not animals. We are not lions or sharks. Lions or sharks cannot choose *not* to eat meat because they are natural carnivores and couldn't survive on a herbivorous diet. Humans, on the other hand, can. We are moral beings and as a result of our morality, we place innumerable restrictions on ourselves for the greater good: We prohibit or disapprove of theft, murder, rape, deception, defamation etc.

So why do we think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them for their flesh?

To sum it up: Just because we *can* eat anything, doesn't necessarily mean that we *should*.

What do you think? I'm very curious to know.

Well basically, as far as I'm aware, the coolest reason not to be a omnivore, and just become a herbivore, is that Spock was a vegetarian; he was another species though (or half another species, half Vulcan).

Other than that, its in human nature to eat meat, we require it to advance our species as well as live a healthy diet. One day, when we have the technology, we will be able to materialize meat from a computer record of its form and substance, and we won't need to kill animals - perhaps somewhere in between then and now, we'll find a way to 'fully' substitue meat from our diets, less people will eat meat, demand is lowered, supply follows, and as a result, less animals are killed for food, and yes this sounds nice.

My question to you is, are we there yet? And if yes, what are the substitute products that provide the same nutritional level of protien and iron (those are the top 2, I'm sure there are other things, vitamins ect), as well as help our brains to develop.

If no, do you believe that by not eating meat, and potentially not advancing our species, we are still doing the ethical thing, even though its in our nature to hunt, kill and eat?

I hunt for sport, you know, but I don't kill them at the end - I fish, and I have rarely ever killed them for food purposes (bait is another story), as I don't like eating fish - but I love hunting fish.

Anyway, would be nice to hear from you, if you have the time to respoind - Regards, Conza

 

[demoman_chaos]

-My sniping hand, how it does hurt-

There are two types of vegans, the kind that just don't eat meat like my friend Jordan and the "holier than thou" such as yourself. Let me ask you something ol chap, how many bugs have you squashed? If roaches moved into your house, would you let them stay or would you kill them off? What if some mice decided to start eating your vegetables for you? If a few New York rats came in to setup an Italian restaurant using old family recipes, would you let them keep the place as long as they paid rent? Like all us "evil" meat eaters, you'd get rid of them, by lethal force if needed.

You seem to think life is sacred. Here is a news flash, it isn't. Everything that lies will die. Everything and everyone alive right now; you, your family, that creepy catholic pastor that invites the altars boys to private parties, and even the cutest little baby seal WILL DIE!! Where is the sacred part? There is nothing sacred about life.

The reason you say there is is because you are alive, simple self-interest. Things that are alive, tend to want to stay that way. If you must kill and eat another animal to survive, you will. You will eat what you have to eat to survive. If it comes down to death by starvation, or death to the little cuddly deer, the cuddly deer is doomed every time (assuming you can catch it, deer are quick little critters).

 

[Radelaide]

I hate to say it OP but there's a thing called a food chain and animals are incredibly more brutal to each other than we are to animals.

 

[Khada]

snip

You certainly suggested that. The idea that animals can feel emotions outside of instinct is laughable. They're not sentient and our species is much more important than the pointless life of a cow or a pig. We thrive, they survive.

No, I didn't. I said they can feel those emotions, not that they experience them in the same way humans do.

Do you really think that animals are purely instinctual creatures? What research is this based on? There is plenty of evidence that shows otherwise. You are aware that we (humans) come from the same distant lineage as all other animals right? Are you saying that we (humans) only gained intelligence and sentience in the latest stage of our evolution and that it just happened all at once, without and grey area?

Here are some videos of animals that are more intelligent than you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GpIZQ239Ls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrOtj3CAHgU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtMMdI3kflU

Your going to have to be able to explain away ALL of their behavior in terms of simple instincts. I think your going to find that difficult to do without inditing humans at the same time.

Go read a book.

 

[Flight]

I'm a vegetarian and have been for a little over ten years. After a brief, ill-advised period where I tried to push my dietary choices on other people, believing it to be the right thing to do, I grew up and mellowed out. I still consume eggs and dairy products, however, and though I sometimes miss meat (especially Peking duck), I haven't wavered in my non-meat eating decisions. Furthermore, most animals eat mean, and it seems an easier way to keep a healthy lifestyle, as even being vegetarian means having to buy (often costly) supplements and imitation products (I honestly cannot stand tofu. Soy burgers for me!).

I am also very much not a supporter of PETA, and I just wish they would shut up and go away; they're making the rest of us look bad.

 

[Lord_Ascendant]

Because It Needs Saying:

I'm calling every carnivore out right now by saying if you post here intending to belittle, demean or deface this thread or the OP in any way I will not stand for it. I'm appalled and shocked at the treatment I've seen here. I think all of you carnivores who are demeaning Vegans should be ashamed of yourselves for flaming this thread.

Why is it that, out of every argument I hear people make against Vegans it sums up to "Because eating meat makes me better than you."
It's like there's some corollary to eating meat that says "I must be a dick about it or I forfeit my fight to eat meat."
As a blanket point for everyone saying any variation on either "Whats wrong with meat, meat tastes good." or "LOL vegans are dumb." need to put on some stronger pants and just deal with it.
Everyone is entitled to eat whatever they please and veganism is no exception. The need to inflate your ego is neither greater than nor equal to another person's life choices. You can, respectully, go someplace else. I'd be less kind here, but I'm trying to keep my patience.

To the rest of us with coherent arguments; It's good you are thinking about it and questioning why you do what you do but keep from straying into the "it's normal" territory and think about Vegans as people, not social deviants.

On Topic: I am a consumer of food, no matter what that food is. I dwell more on taste than what I'm doing and I justify eating meat by thanking whatever animal died to give me my pulled pork sandwich for giving it's life, even if I don't do it out loud. I do think you have to see and touch the animals you eat, in order to really think about what you are doing. I am OK with the fact another intelligent life form died to feed my hunger, and I also recognized that though predation is a thing in the animal world we don't need to be predators. It is possible for us to live off of a Vegan diet. We can choose, however, not to. Whether it's better to avoid being Vegan is a different matter.

Think of it this way, it's better to be thankful than take your food for granted. It isn't only here to feed you, and it doesn't have to be there tomorrow. Learn to be thankful for the meat you eat and the animal products you consume. Maybe one day there won't be any more left.

 

[mjc0961]

My goal is to make people question some things we have been taught about the animals we eat, without shoving my own morality down their throats.

...

This means that there is no biological need for us to eat meat. We simply feel like eating it.

Therefore, whenever we kill an animal for food, we are essentially deciding that our appetite is more important than that creature's life. We are inflicting deadly violence on a defenseless being, simply for our own pleasure. Personally, I don't think that's ethical behavior.

Now, many people say that nature isn't ethical, that animals brutally kill and eat other animals all the time. That's true, but we are not animals. We are not lions or sharks. Lions or sharks cannot choose *not* to eat meat because they are natural carnivores and couldn't survive on a herbivorous diet. Humans, on the other hand, can. We are moral beings and as a result of our morality, we place innumerable restrictions on ourselves for the greater good: We prohibit or disapprove of theft, murder, rape, deception, defamation etc.

So why do we think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them for their flesh?

To sum it up: Just because we *can* eat anything, doesn't necessarily mean that we *should*.

What do you think? I'm very curious to know.

I think I smell a massive hypocrite. Guess what. Plants are living creatures too, and there is no biological need for us to eat them. We simply feel like it. And don't forget that unless you're out their picking your own food by hand, you're killing animals yourself. [http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill] Why do you think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them as long as you don't plan to eat them after you kill them?

Also, consider yourself sponsored. [http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor] I'm going to have a triple burger instead of just a single the next time I make burgers because you came in here promising not to look down on others who don't follow your diet and then doing it anyway. I hope it was worth it!

EDIT: I need to stop reading these threads, otherwise I'm going to become obese trying to sponsor all the vegetarian and vegan "I'm morally superior to you" assholes in this thread. I mean my god, one person implied that those of us who eat a steak don't realize where it comes from, as if we all believed in a fucking magical steak fairy that stocks the supermarkets and restaurants every night while they're closed or some shit.

That's inaccurate. Being an omnivore doesn't mean we can eat almost anything and will survive. By that logic you can eat your feces, which is edible, and survive the rest of your life. The "gist" you are mentioning is actually extremely bias because science has found out that the reason we gained our sentience is because the protein of meats added to our diet specifically made our brains bigger. By raising any human on a strictly vegan diet you are essentially devolving them.

The real gist of science is the more complex the diet, the more complex the creature.

This post explains so much. Thank you, Orekoya.

 

[Orekoya]

Human beings are omnivores, which means that we can eat almost anything. There are many divergent nutritional studies and opinions out there, but the gist seems to be that we can get by equally well on meat- or plant-based diets or any combination thereof, as long as we spend some time thinking about what nutrients we need and where to get them.

This means that there is no biological need for us to eat meat. We simply feel like eating it.

That's inaccurate. Being an omnivore doesn't mean we can eat almost anything and will survive. By that logic you can eat your feces, which is edible, and survive the rest of your life. The "gist" you are mentioning is based in opinion with no factual back-up because science has found out that the reason we gained our sentience is because the protein of meats added to our diet specifically made our brains bigger [http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2010/08/07/human-omnivores-meat-made-our-brains-bigger/]. By raising any human on a strictly vegan diet you are essentially devolving them.

The real gist of science is the more complex the diet, the more complex the creature.

That's true, but we are not animals.

No. We are.

I think I smell a massive hypocrite. Guess what. Plants are living creatures too, and there is no biological need for us to eat them. We simply feel like it.

Also plants can live for weeks after being pulled from the ground/trees/etc which is why they still have their colors. When you eat your plants, you are eating them alive.