Imperials or Stormcloaks?

[Knight Templar]

I really don't like Ulfric at all. He is honest in a "spin" kind of way but lacks the honour you would expect/want to see in a King.
That said at least the Stormcloaks will be able to fight the Thalmor. The Empire lets them run about throughout the empire and gave them everything they wanted, knowing it would simply be a slower death.
In my mind the civil war (why isn't it called a war of independence? Apart from Whiterun this seems to be mostly an "Empire vs Stormcloak" issue with the aim to be rid of the Empire) will damage the Empire's ability to fight the genocidal elves no matter what, so I might as well fight on the side that intends to do something about the Thalmor, even if it's leader is a bastard. If Hammerfell could beat the Dominion back all by themselves, then the Empire should have been able to without giving up Talos and the Blades (just checked the UESP to be sure I was correct, they use the word "pyrrhic victory". I love that phrase.)

In the end I guess even though I dislike the Stormcloaks (Racism? Not a fan, letting people die like that isn't somehow better than killing them) I see them as being better than the Empire, since the latter will lose to the Aldemeri Dominion and the Thalmor are worse than the worst of both sides.
If I thought the Empire could fight the Aldemeri Dominion I would even be willing to get over the way they deny Talos.

Finally,

Spoiler

Ulfric is an agent of the Thalmor. He was captured by them during the war and now he is an agent of theirs, causing the civil war to destabilize the Empire.

Fuck Ulfric and his Aryan "Sons of Skyrim".

I have read that Dossier you are referring to and I don't think it says that.

Spoiler

The Thalmor consider Ulfric to be an asset, but he doesn't work with them. He gave information when captured and for a short time after that, however that's about it.
It doesn't say he is working for them, in fact it says they can't contact him because he is more than a little pissed they got him locked up for worshiping Talos, which took place before the war started obviously. The Thalmor do not want him to win, and he doesn't want to aid them.
Maybe I am reading it wrong, if so please correct me.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Jon Battle-born is right, everyone seems obsessed with death.

I've sided with both sides with different characters. I think the stormcloaks draw you into their brotherhood a bit more. Support the stormcloaks against the empire, because I'm an anti-imperialist. Imperials are against the freedom of religion, and also are enforcing an elven decree, which has a problem with a human god. Imperials are dicks, and tried to execute the main character, when his/her name wasn't even on the execution list. But hey, that's tyranny, although not so sure the stormcloaks and jarls could do better.

My true side though, it to kill them both when I find them, weaken them both and get about to killing the real problem DRAGONS AND THALMOR ELVES.

 

[Kavonde]

I sided with Ulfric, largely over the ban on worshiping Talos. I also reasoned that independent Skyrim didn't necessarily mean stupid Skyrim; if the Thalmor started another campaign, I doubt Ulfric would be dumb enough to leave the Empire hanging (and thus have to stand against the damned elves alone).

Also, with the Septim line dead and the White Gold Concordant being more of a surrender than a truce, it doesn't seem to me like the Empire's going to be around much longer, independent Skyrim or no. It's definitely going the way of Rome. That being the case, I reasoned that it might be best for the Nords to cut ties with it, rather than be dragged into obscurity alongside it. A confederation of independent nations might actually stand a better chance against the Thalmor in the long run, through rebellions and guerilla warfare.

Also, while the Thalmor dossier does indicate that Ulfric was working with the Thalmor, it also said that a victory for the Stormcloaks would hurt their plans. They wanted the war to keep going indefinitely. While I wasn't particularly happy to learn about his history with the Thalmor, I like to think I still screwed up the damned elves' plans through my brutal and efficient campaign against the Empire.

 

[Knight Templar]

It is a matter of time. Once the Empire is strong enough, there will be a second war between the Aldemeri Dominion and the Empire. As others have pointed out, the Dominion doesn't really care about Skyrim. Once the Empire loses it's strongest foothold, they will invade Cyrodill and take the White-Gold Tower. That's a game over for any non-Altmer.

I doubt the Empire will ever be strong enough. Thalmor agents have free roam in the Empire but without the Blades the Empire has no force with which to strike back or gather information in a similar fashion.

EDIT: And as for Talos, the Riverwood Blacksmith (if you went with the Imperial at the start) says that when he was young, everyone had a Talos shrine. It was only when Ulfric and his followers made such a noise about it that the Dominion started cracking down, which Ulfric probably forsaw and wanted. Once the Elves were kidnapping people, more would join his cause.

Really?
I'll go check that now then.

 

[Sandernista]

I really don't like Ulfric at all. He is honest in a "spin" kind of way but lacks the honour you would expect/want to see in a King.
That said at least the Stormcloaks will be able to fight the Thalmor. The Empire lets them run about throughout the empire and gave them everything they wanted, knowing it would simply be a slower death.

Ulfric really is an asshole [http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-bear-markarth].

But really, the Stormcloaks fighting the Thalmor? At the beginning of the game the Stormcloaks were about to be defeated, their leader was in chains! The Thalmor decimated the Empire (which is Cyrodiil+Skyrim+High Rock). The Empire is not just one province, it is a federation, an Empire if you will, of provinces.

In my mind the civil war (why isn't it called a war of independence? Apart from Whiterun this seems to be mostly an "Empire vs Stormcloak" issue with the aim to be rid of the Empire) will damage the Empire's ability to fight the genocidal elves no matter what, so I might as well fight on the side that intends to do something about the Thalmor, even if it's leader is a bastard.

Its a civil war because Skyrim is one of the founding members of the empire, the Empire, and all of Mankind can trace its lineage back to skyrim.

If Hammerfell could beat the Dominion back all by themselves, then the Empire should have been able to without giving up Talos and the Blades

The Empire was in a very decayed state by the time of the great war. The Thalmor had started coups in both Valenwood and Eleswyr, both Imperial provinces, Black Marsh had ceded, Morrowind was decimated by invasion and natural disasters, and Hammerfell was beset by an almost civil war. That leaves the three aforementioned provinces. Not to mention every spy the Empire had in the Aldmeri Dominion was killed shortly before the war.

The Empire was taken entirely by surprise. In fact, Imperial forces in Hammerfell were pushed all the way beyond the northern end of the Alik'r desert. Hammerfell was reduced to one last city, until an amazing Imperial offensive.

In the end I guess even though I dislike the Stormcloaks (Racism? Not a fan, letting people die like that isn't somehow better than killing them) I see them as being better than the Empire, since the latter will lose to the Aldemeri Dominion and the Thalmor are worse than the worst of both sides.
If I thought the Empire could fight the Aldemeri Dominion I would even be willing to get over the way they deny Talos.

Considering the Thalmor's ultimate goal is the extermination of all man, and they almost beat an Empire drawing armies from across 5 provinces, how do you think Skyrim, standing alone, could even hope to be a footnote in aldmeri domination?

 

[Mindlessidiots]

Spoiler

Ulfric is an agent of the Thalmor. He was captured by them during the war and now he is an agent of theirs, causing the civil war to destabilize the Empire.

In reference to this, I'm going to try and keep myself from believing that this is true and make excuses. Not that I'm doubting your claims, I checked the wiki and it's legit, plus I'm at the embassy so I will soon see it for myself. It's just that it's basically saying "hey remember when you had the difficult choice of picking what side you could be on, because they both have there pros and cons and neither are the "good" guys in the fight? Well screw that, you can really only pick one side realistically now!"

 

[Sandernista]

I sided with Ulfric, largely over the ban on worshiping Talos. I also reasoned that independent Skyrim didn't necessarily mean stupid Skyrim; if the Thalmor started another campaign, I doubt Ulfric would be dumb enough to leave the Empire hanging (and thus have to stand against the damned elves alone).

Also, with the Septim line dead and the White Gold Concordant being more of a surrender than a truce, it doesn't seem to me like the Empire's going to be around much longer, independent Skyrim or no. It's definitely going the way of Rome. That being the case, I reasoned that it might be best for the Nords to cut ties with it, rather than be dragged into obscurity alongside it. A confederation of independent nations might actually stand a better chance against the Thalmor in the long run, through rebellions and guerilla warfare.

Also, while the Thalmor dossier does indicate that Ulfric was working with the Thalmor, it also said that a victory for the Stormcloaks would hurt their plans. They wanted the war to keep going indefinitely. While I wasn't particularly happy to learn about his history with the Thalmor, I like to think I still screwed up the damned elves' plans through my brutal and efficient campaign against the Empire.

There is no guerrilla warfare. Once the Altmer take the White Gold Tower for good, they will write Man out of existence.

 

[Kavonde]

There is no guerrilla warfare. Once the Altmer take the White Gold Tower for good, they will write Man out of existence.

They get to just do that automatically? I think I missed something.

 

[Sandernista]

There is no guerrilla warfare. Once the Altmer take the White Gold Tower for good, they will write Man out of existence.

They get to just do that automatically? I think I missed something.

Not automatically, but all they have to do is hold onto the tower for a few months.

 

[Arakasi]

I think neither are currently morally correct.
However due to several quests for what should eventually be the High Queen of Skyrim, I have hope for the Imperials to change it's ways and allow for the worship of Talos.

 

[brunothepig]

Of course. The Thalmor are even worse. Which is why the Empire needs to be united. The Thalmor

Spoiler

STARTED the civil war for this exact reason. Ulfric works for them!

Wait, really? Is this speculation, or is it revealed through the Imperial storyline? I went with Stormcloaks, and I actually wish I hadn't. Which I kinda like actually. I agreed with their ideals of freeing Skyrim and all that, I figured if the Imperials wanted allies or whatever against the Thalmor they should ask, not subjugate a country. I quite enjoyed capturing forts, although I mostly sat at a good vantage point throwing spells and watching my

Spoiler: slight main quest spoiler

dragon friend eat people

However, once I led the Stormcloaks to victory I started hearing things. A few shopkeepers in Whiterun mention how the Stormcloaks won't buy from them, an alchemist even mentioning that the Stormcloaks think she'll sell them poison. Basically, they are racist fucks, they just disguise it by saying the Imperials shouldn't be ruling Nords. Which sucks, cause I did agree with their other ideas, freeing Skyrim and all that.

As for the Thalmor, they try anything and I'll tear them apart single-handed. I wonder if a mod could be made continuing that storyline. Even set it in Cyrodil, with the Thalmor going after the White-Gold tower. Or maybe just have them come to Skyrim, either way I want to destroy them.

 

[PureIrony]

I consider myself a pragmatic, and therefore I find it impossible to side with the Stormcloaks. Lately, I've been getting the feeling that the only reason we see the Imperials causing so much trouble on a regular basis is because Bethesda was worried people would take 10 seconds to think about the Stormcloak's motivations and realize they're essentially trying to destabilize their entire country in order ethnically cleanse it, that they seem to have very few plans of actually running the country, and that they are even less of a match to their ultimate enemy, the Thalmor, then the Imperials.

 

[Smurf McSmurfington]

Well I haven't actually made a choice between the two... though I'm leaning towards the Imperials simply because they don't seem to be as downright stupid as the Stormcloaks (both the people on that particular side, and how they go about their business in general, the whole failing to see the big picture issue, et cetera)... though I'd rather not just choose, and not join either side, 'cause in reality both of the sides are pretty damn stupid.
Besides I prefer not to be tied down to anything or anyone, especially not to such an extent, I'm more of a morally gray chaotic neutral kind of person, both in games and out. In games I often take on the role of a trickster of sorts who doesn't really give away much of himself, information-wise, and really can swing either way as far as "morally" based decisions go.
Also, morals are subjective anyway, so I can't really base my decisions on those anyway...

I just realised something... in Skyrim(and many other games) we're making decisions based on either sides ideology rather than more mechanically based decisions. That has got to be a milestone of sorts for gaming, no?
Though granted... decisions such as these were first possible over a decade ago, but back then they really were limited to a rather small group of excellent games, rather than more mainstream-ish games such as... well... Skyrim, for instance. So hooray for us!

 

[Sandernista]

Ooh I would also like to point out that Elves reproduce ridiculously slow, so within a couple decades the Empire will be at almost full strength, whereas the Elves will be practically in the same position they were in right after the great war.

 

[Knight Templar]

snip

You don't seem to be very aware of the lore or history of the setting.
For example that book? It paints the forsworn as fine happy people and that Ulfric forced the city to let him worship Talos after he removed the Forsworn. This is shown untrue in the game when meeting any forsworn or talking to people in Markarth

Considering the Thalmor's ultimate goal is the extermination of all man, and they almost beat an Empire drawing armies from across 5 provinces, how do you think Skyrim, standing alone, could even hope to be a footnote in aldmeri domination?

Because Hammerfell did it. The Empire abandoned them when signing that treaty designed to give the empire a slow death, and they beat back the Thalmor alone.

 

[Jake0fTrades]

You have to think about what will happen after the rebellion. Plenty of kingdoms have been raised on good principles but have fallen apart due to poor structure, poor laws, resulting wars etc. The Thalmor are inevitably going to try conquering Tamriel, so which side would be most ready for the war?

From prior knowledge, we know that the entire Empire's army couldn't stand against the Thalmor, the only thing that saved the Empire was the White-Gold Concordat, and if Skyrim became an independent nation, they would be even less likely to succeed against the entire Aldmeri Dominion. Militarily, neither the Imperials or the Stormcloaks have the means to defeat the Thalmor, but a unified Empire would have a much greater chance.

Imperials: 1 Stormcloaks: 0

Thalmor aside, that brings me to the issue that most people here are concerned about: which side is "better," or, "has better morals."

The Imperials have changed since the good ol' Oblivion days. There's no longer a valid basis for the Empire's monarchy. When the Septim's were in power, they literally had a divine right from St. Alessia, they were the only ones who could light the Dragonfires, and they were direct descendants of Tiber Septim/Talos. When Martin died, that ended, instead, a new emperor was chosen from among the High Council; an emperor without divine right and chosen without popular sovereignty; our society would frown heavily on such a government, imagine how the citizens of Cyrodill feel.

I think the similarities between the Imperial armor and the armor of ancient Roman legionaries are too numerous to be mere coincidence, for one, it gives an instant connotation of evil to players who remember the Legion of New Vegas, and it also brings to mind the declining years of the Roman empire when leaders like Caligula and Nero slowly brought the empire down on itself; I'm pretty sure the developers did that on purpose.

The Stormcloaks, on the other hand, are a bit more difficult to analyze, I can't think of any historical analogues to compare them to, and all we have for reference is what they stand for and who their leader is.

The priorities of the Stormcloaks are pretty simple: Skyrim independence and legalization of Talos worship. In practice, the Stormcloaks have taken their nationalistic ideals and turned them against outsiders and foreigners--my first thought is of the Dunmer woman being harassed in Windhelm--really, that's no better than the stigma against African-Americans in the beginning of the United States. Unless Ulfric comes out and declares--and he might, I haven't finished the Stormcloak campaign--that all foreigners and non-Nords are evil, than I don't think we should worry too much about the "racism" of the Stormcloaks.

Imperials: 1 Stormcloaks: 1

Take your pick, you can bet your money on a dying nation that can probably withstand the coming war, or a nation that may or may not have risen to the point where it can withstand the coming war.