Imperials or Stormcloaks?

[MaxwellEdison]

Stormcloaks, from what I've seen thus far. They have good ideas, imo (self-governance of Skyrim, resistance to the Imperials basically shitting on Nord culture by banning worship of Talos) but are really racist. Then again, everyone I've met seems pretty racist.

That's my reasoning. Never played an Elder Scrolls game, and I'm very early on in this one.

 

[Sandernista]

snip

You don't seem to be very aware of the lore or history of the setting.
For example that book? It paints the forsworn as fine happy people and that Ulfric forced the city to let him worship Talos after he removed the Forsworn. This is shown untrue in the game when meeting any forsworn or talking to people in Markarth

Actually this is proven by talking to people in Markath and by talking to the Forsworn. The natives of the reach were Bretons, but the Nords took the land from High Rock. The natives of the land, bretons, were treated extremely harshly, their religion and culture decimated. During the great war they revolted, took back Markath and attempted to be peaceful with the Nords, and attempted to plea for sovereignty with the Empire. Then Ulfric came in and slaughtered them, then the Silver Bloods continued the decimation of their culture that had gone on for the last 1000 years. That was when the 'Forsworn' were born.

Considering the Thalmor's ultimate goal is the extermination of all man, and they almost beat an Empire drawing armies from across 5 provinces, how do you think Skyrim, standing alone, could even hope to be a footnote in aldmeri domination?

Because Hammerfell did it. The Empire abandoned them when signing that treaty designed to give the empire a slow death, and they beat back the Thalmor alone.

[/quote]

Yes they did, with huge Imperial help at the battle of Red Ring, then when the Emperor attempted to gain a respite from Aldmeri Pressure, the Redguards and Bretons urged the Colovian Emperor to continue. Mede was all 'your lands are not the entire focus of Aldmeri Domination guys, maybe we could have peace for a bit, get some new babies out, in a few decades we'll be at full strength. Those elves rarely give birth, they'll be still tired from the Great War.', Redguards were all 'Nope' and ceded from the Empire so they could beat back the small token force that the Aldmeris had left to defend what was left of the ruins that was once Hammerfell.

The Redguards could only beat the small token force the Aldmeris had left in their land, after the Empire had lent them thousands of Nords, Bretons, Dunmer, and Colovians, in the battle of Red Ring.

Their land was just broken towers and ash when they finally made it south.

 

[Yokai]

Well, the Imperials are obviously imperialists who want to control as much territory as possible. And being under the thumb of the Aldmeri Dominion makes their rule a bad thing for anyone who isn't an Altmer, regardless of whether the Imperials hate the Thalmor or not. Plus, as illustrated by the opening sequence, some of them have a "kill everything and ask questions later" mentality, which is pretty damn difficult to sympathize with. So I didn't join them.

The Stormcloaks, on the other hand, are militant xenophobes, and they take their hatred for the Thalmor out on the Dunmer, who really don't deserve such as they've been too busy getting blown up along with the rest of Vvardenfell and killed by angry Argonians to have anything to do with the subjugation so loved by the Thalmor. Also, Ulfric is the only Stormcloak Jarl who isn't a complete twat. So I didn't join them either.

Bonus answer goes to the Forsworn, who are trying to solve the decades of oppression against their own people by brutally killing everyone everywhere, thus making life even more difficult for the handful of Reach natives that just want to coexist by reinforcing the stereotype that Reach natives are savages. So they're just dicks.

To cap it off, patrols from all three factions attack me on sight, giving me even less reason to side with anyone. So I just murder dragons and make really nice armor.

 

[bbad89]

Who do you believe is morally correct, if any? Keep in mind, this has absolutely nothing to do with which faction you ended up joining. The reason I made this thread is because one of the things I love about Skyrim is how neither the Imperials or Stormcloaks are obviously "good" or "evil." Looking back at New Vegas, the NCR and the Legion were so clearly good and evil that it almost seemed childish. So, Escapists, whose cause do you think is more justified?

EDIT: To me, neither are fully justified. While I completely understand the Stormcloaks wanting their land out of Imperial hands, they are also quite racist towards other groups. The Imperials sound like the have a good cause, but they go about it in the wrong way entirely.

Well, the NCR is a bunch of imperialistic assholes, while Caesar's Legion stands to finally bring order, no matter how brutal, to the wasteland.
OT: GO IMPERIALISM!

 

[King of the Sandbox]

They've both tried to kill me, so I now repay the favor. The only true ruler is Dovahkiin!

 

[Right Hook]

In the intro I sided with the Stormcloaks because I thought it made sense to follow the other prisoners, I didn't want my head immediately back on the chopping block. I've Thoroughly explored the Imperials position and have found them to come across as ineffective and weak due to the Thalmor having them by the balls, they are also supporting terrible ideas by banning Talos worship. To me the Imperials come across as good but completely corrupted and useless, if I thought I could remove the corruption from the ranks, I'd be less worried about siding with them.

I haven't looked into the Stormcloaks much but from what I heard they are pretty racist. Other than that fact they seem like a pretty good group to clean Skyrim of this weak Imperial army. If I thought I could remove the racist elements from the army, I'd be much more supportive of such a rebellion.

As it stands, both sides seem wrong and I have reasons for disliking both, I'm really at an impasse. Which shit sandwich should I take a bite of?

 

[RedDeadFred]

I just kill Thalmor. Fuck politics.

Gun to my head though, I'd say Empire, since I like to think my guy is a distant relative to Martin Septim, plus they are the good guys, despite what the openning would have you believe.

Ya just because that one officer is a complete ***** doesn't mean she represents them all.

 

[Sandernista]

Who do you believe is morally correct, if any? Keep in mind, this has absolutely nothing to do with which faction you ended up joining. The reason I made this thread is because one of the things I love about Skyrim is how neither the Imperials or Stormcloaks are obviously "good" or "evil." Looking back at New Vegas, the NCR and the Legion were so clearly good and evil that it almost seemed childish. So, Escapists, whose cause do you think is more justified?

EDIT: To me, neither are fully justified. While I completely understand the Stormcloaks wanting their land out of Imperial hands, they are also quite racist towards other groups. The Imperials sound like the have a good cause, but they go about it in the wrong way entirely.

Well, the Legion are a bunch of imperialistic assholes, while the NCR stands to finally bring order, no matter how democratic and non-sexist, to the wasteland.
OT: GO IMPERIALISM!

Here let me fix that for you.

 

[Sandernista]

I know I keep harping on, and on, and on, but really, guys. That people still root for the Stormcloaks...

Also, Ulfric is the only Stormcloak Jarl who isn't a complete twat.

You and I must have been playing different games with very different Jarl Ulfrics.

Lore-wise Empire is the only non-suicidal choice.

 

[Yokai]

I know I keep harping on, and on, and on, but really, guys. That people still root for the Stormcloaks...

Also, Ulfric is the only Stormcloak Jarl who isn't a complete twat.

You and I must have been playing different games with very different Jarl Ulfrics.

By which I mean he has something resembling a code of honor and civility. Compare that to Dawnstar's Jarl who's bleeding his town dry to support the war effort and threatens to execute people for wearing Legion armor, and whoever's actually in control of Riften is using the lack of Imperial law to do whatever the hell they want. Ulfric's no saint, he's just not as much of a dick as the rest of them.

 

[Outcast107]

I know I keep harping on, and on, and on, but really, guys. That people still root for the Stormcloaks...

Also, Ulfric is the only Stormcloak Jarl who isn't a complete twat.

You and I must have been playing different games with very different Jarl Ulfrics.

Go..FUCKING..Stormcloaks..

 

[Knight Templar]

snip

You don't seem to be very aware of the lore or history of the setting.
For example that book? It paints the forsworn as fine happy people and that Ulfric forced the city to let him worship Talos after he removed the Forsworn. This is shown untrue in the game when meeting any forsworn or talking to people in Markarth

Actually this is proven by talking to people in Markath and by talking to the Forsworn. The natives of the reach were Bretons, but the Nords took the land from High Rock.

Many, many years ago that happened, deciding to kill every single last nord isn't the right response to the event.

The natives of the land, bretons, were treated extremely harshly, their religion and culture decimated.

They revere Hagravens as part of this religion, killing people in a blood ritual is also a big part of this religion.
Remember Hagravens, those things described by the game itself as evil?

During the great war they revolted, took back Markath and attempted to be peaceful with the Nords, and attempted to plea for sovereignty with the Empire.

So because they were once entirely different people, they should be allowed to take the land?
Markarth has been a Nordic city since at least the start of the third Era.

Considering the Thalmor's ultimate goal is the extermination of all man, and they almost beat an Empire drawing armies from across 5 provinces, how do you think Skyrim, standing alone, could even hope to be a footnote in aldmeri domination?

Because Hammerfell did it. The Empire abandoned them when signing that treaty designed to give the empire a slow death, and they beat back the Thalmor alone.

Yes they did, with huge Imperial help at the battle of Red Ring, then when the Emperor attempted to gain a respite from Aldmeri Pressure, the Redguards and Bretons urged the Colovian Emperor to continue. Mede was all 'your lands are not the entire focus of Aldmeri Domination guys, maybe we could have peace for a bit, get some new babies out, in a few decades we'll be at full strength.

The lands of Hammerfell were the Thalmor's original target, it was their aim to take that before they thought they might be able to crush the entire empire.

The Empire went with a slow death, taking terms they knew would weaken them.

Those elves rarely give birth, they'll be still tired from the Great War.', Redguards were all 'Nope' and ceded from the Empire so they could beat back the small token force that the Aldmeris had left to defend what was left of the ruins that was once Hammerfell.

Any source on that "small token force"?
And of course the Redguards were not willing to give up their land in order to appease the people who tried to take it.

The Redguards could only beat the small token force the Aldmeris had left in their land, after the Empire had lent them thousands of Nords, Bretons, Dunmer, and Colovians, in the battle of Red Ring.

Why would the elves leave a token force in Hammerfell when they thought the Legion was still there and taking the land was a major objective?
Are you trying to say that the battle to retake the Imperial city was lending troops to Hammerfell, when the troops that had remained in that nation were not supposed to have been left there at all?

If the Aldmeri were truly so weak that a single nation could beat them back when conquest of that land was their initial aim, then doesn't that mean that taking on a treaty you know will piss off two major parts of the empire and hamper your ability to rebuild is utterly stupid?

Their land was just broken towers and ash when they finally made it south.

Would giving the land to the Thalmor have been better?

 

[ninetails593]

Y U NO POLL!1!
Personally, I think the Imperial's injustices would vanish without the Thalmor. [Has not beaten game]

 

[Sandernista]

snippers

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

The Thalmor's original target was Hammerfell, they wanted to weaken the Empire one province at a time, then when they saw how weak the Empire really was they just thought to move in on Cyrodil itself.

Once the Empire started to regain ground in Cyrodil, and actually keep the Elves back in Hammerfell, the Emperor called for a peace treaty. The Thalmor had long since pulled their main force out of Hammerfell, or else they would have lost to the Imperial Legions in Cyrodiil.

No one province could keep the Thalmor off alone, the Redguards couldn't even keep them out of their lands without Imperial help.

 

[Knight Templar]

No one province could keep the Thalmor off alone, the Redguards couldn't even keep them out of their lands without Imperial help.

Except when they did after the empire abandoned them.
You are missing this point.


You can point out the Thalmor were weak by this stage, but clearly too weak to hold what ground they had taken this makes the Empire seem stupid to take such painful "peace" terms.

The Thalmor had long since pulled their main force out of Hammerfell...

Not really, they focused their main forces on the imperial city while simply solidifying their hold in Hammerfell. They had taken most of Hammerfell, they stopped advancing because they got what they were after there. Letting the Thalmor have it and make all that loss of life and what had been regained pointless was never going to lead to recovery.


The empire was more or less saying "Yeah, this treaty will fuck you guys over, but it's good for Cyrodiil so bend over and think of Atmora".

 

[ChupathingyX]

Well, the Legion are a bunch of imperialistic assholes, while the NCR stands to finally bring order, no matter how democratic and non-sexist, to the wasteland.
OT: GO IMPERIALISM!

Here let me fix that for you.

I haven't played Skyrim, so i can't comment on Imperial/Stormcloak, but all of this New Vegas talk is really making me twitchy.

Both the NCR and Legion are imperialistic and although both intend to bring order, the Legion are doing a much better job at it.

Also, one reason why Caesar hated Tandi so much is because she ruled for so long. The NCR is supposed to be democratic yet she was in power for so long and Caesar saw that as a weakness of democracy and the NCR.

Oh well, to be honest in my "canon" playthrough of New Vegas, I sided with Ulysses.

Ugghhh, back to Skyrim, well ummm, the Imperials have cooler looking uniforms so I'll go with them.

 

[Srkkl]

This one is hard, I have to side with the legion because they're providing overall peace, yet at the same time they let the talmor run around and assasinate people because they worship a god. That's the only reason I agree with the stormcloaks, however I disagree with the stormcloaks more because while I would understand the want for your land and the freedom to believe what you want without fear of death they have the "Nordic land for Nords only" mentality which is stupid to me.

 

[Sandernista]

No one province could keep the Thalmor off alone, the Redguards couldn't even keep them out of their lands without Imperial help.

Except when they did after the empire abandoned them.
You are missing this point.


You can point out the Thalmor were weak by this stage, but clearly too weak to hold what ground they had taken this makes the Empire seem stupid to take such painful "peace" terms.

The Thalmor had long since pulled their main force out of Hammerfell...

Not really, they focused their main forces on the imperial city while simply solidifying their hold in Hammerfell. They had taken most of Hammerfell, they stopped advancing because they got what they were after there. Letting the Thalmor have it and make all that loss of life and what had been regained pointless was never going to lead to recovery.


The empire was more or less saying "Yeah, this treaty will fuck you guys over, but it's good for Cyrodiil so bend over and think of Atmora".

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.

Yes they were totally solidifying their hold on Hammerfell.

I fail to see what you're not understanding, the Imperial Legion was practically decimated, they had driven the Thalmor out of Cyrodil, and out of northern Hammerfell. The Emperor agreed to the shitty terms (but completely ignored some of them for almost 30 years) because he knew the Empire could regain its strength whereas the Aldmeri could not. Hammerfell could have easily been defeated by the Thalmor had they focused only on the Redguards.