In Defence of Frank Miller

[userwhoquitthesite]

Then she's a whore and an adulterer whose only participation in the sex act was standing there and not making a fuss. Much better.

You don't think it could be noble to sacrifice one's self respect or good name in order to try and help someone you cared about, or for the greater good?
Snap judgements are not any better than what you're railing against

 

[JimB]

How do you both? Both is a pretty cool word to co-op for use as a verb, but you'll have to explain the action. So I can be as cool as you one day.

Yes, yes, I made a typo. I am sure we're all duly impressed by your ability to notice that. You still haven't answered the question: If you're willing to lie to us in the very title of your thread, then how can we believe you have any credibility in the discussions to follow?

It is woman's fault she can't get a job because the other applicant had bigger tits? No. But nor is it man's fault entirely.

Fault is irrelevant; a red herring thrown up to provoke outrage and distract from the real issue. Correcting the oppressive, offensive behavior is the issue.

I just don't think telling me I shouldn't enjoy idealized physical form is the way to go about it.

That is a straw man. No one has said you are wrong for enjoying images of idealized females. Frank Miller's portrayal of women contributes to an atmosphere of oppression. Whether you like looking at Barbie-shaped women is your own business.

 

[tmande2nd]

Ah yes Frank Miller.
The man who gave Batman his balls back.

By turning him into an insane gary stu, demeans or destroys everyone not batman, and is a border line racist judging by some of his works.
Also the dude who made "Holy Terror"

Where all the female characters want to fuck batman, and...that is about it.
Not a good writer really.
Certainly not a good batman writer.

 

[JimB]

A sex industry they took over and controlled, and controlled for some time, and they were feared enough that the rest of the other rival families wouldn't dare take them on for it until they made their mistake.

Yeah? So why didn't they move into a form of crime that they could wear human clothes for and not catch STDs from, if they're such a competent force to be reckoned with?

Because it's a Frank Miller book and whoring is the only option for women in his books. That is the answer to that question.

I don't think anyone can take a look at a comic like Sin City and not think it's an awesome piece of literature.

I can and do. It's boring and pretentious; it's all style with no substance. It's revenge porn and objectification, and nothing but.

You don't think it could be noble to sacrifice one's self-respect or good name in order to try and help someone you cared about, or for the greater good?

Nobility is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that she exchanged sex for a service. That is prostitution.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

snip

Funny, but try again. I never said that the guy isn't sexist, just that he isn't a misogynist.

Then she's a whore and an adulterer whose only participation in the sex act was standing there and not making a fuss. Much better.

And she killed him when he went back on his promise, in turn leading her to expose him for being a traitor. Yeah I'd say she is more than the one dimensional character you make her out to be as.

F.A.T.A.L. is a roleplaying game system designed by a man who included systems for rape, references to all female characters as prostitutes, rules to determine the length and girth of your character's penis and/or the circumference of his or her anus and vagina, and tries to justify it by claiming it's realistic for a medieval period but refuses to discuss such consequences of rape and prostitution as disease. It is none of Miller's work, but the comparison occurred to me here.

....what did I just read? I guess I know one game I'll never be playing. That said, I don't see how the comparison can be made. What does the measurements of a persons body have to do with medieval time period?

Three. You're forgetting the Spirit, not that I blame you.

Yeah I heard it was terrible.

I've only watched that once and was groaning my way through all of it, so I may be misremembering events, but I'm pretty sure every female character, whether good guy or bad guy, makes an earnest attempt to service the Spirit's hog with her hot body because that's what women do, right? They have sex with men regardless of any connection to him?

You just described almost every James Bond movie to me. Is Ian Fleming now a person who hates women?

Other people in this thread have brought up his comic work (all the women of All-Star Batman and Robin existing only in terms of their sexual relationships to Batman; Catwoman's origin being retconned into Selina Kyle as a prostitute), so I'll let other people speak up on that count.

Then I go back to my earlier comment that he is sexist and that he can't seem to write anything other than the same female character over and over again. I'll give you that he is probably sexist and a writer who needs to develop his female characters more, but he doesn't seem to hate women IMO.

Thank you. I keep it polished and pretty just so I can show it off at parties like this.

lol, cool. What kind of polishing agent do you use?

Okay, once again, and bolded for emphasis: I am not talking about the actress. I am talking about the character. Devon Aoki's genetic heritage is irrelevant to the topic of Frank Miller's treatment of a fully Asian character, just as the character of Dr. Fu Manchu isn't somehow less racist just because he was played by Christopher Lee, a Caucasian man.

Ok, apologies I misunderstood. That said, wouldn't Miho's character be an example of a "strong women"? She reminds me of Grey Fox for MGS.

She uses stealth, a samurai sword, and ninja throwing weapons to assassinate people. What is your definition of the word "ninja" such that it does not apply here?

The exact definition [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja]. I didn't realize that you knew her nationality and that Sin City took place during Feudal Japan(1185?1868).

Why would it need to be?

To show that it was part of the "ninja" stereotype.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Yes, yes, I made a typo. I am sure we're all duly impressed by your ability to notice that. You still haven't answered the question: If you're willing to lie to us in the very title of your thread, then how can we believe you have any credibility in the discussions to follow

My answer was by mocking you: If you don't think I have any credibility then you don't respond to the thread and it withers and dies.
[] -> [XP]
That was a sad thread dying. Threads need lots and lots of posts to live, like how we need to eat cheeseburgers and small colorful objects on the floor. But forums are a spartan home (odd, what with the forum being a Roman thing, but I guess this is just Times New Roman) and unfit threads will and OUGHT starve like the smallest of puppies, in order to preserve the greatness of the forum Nation-state. So by answering my post, you must want this thread to live! So thank you, kind sir, for believing in this little thread's potential and doing your best to keep it going!
So you see, just as YOU believed that deep down, there was something to discuss in my thread, so too did I believe you were worth responding to! It's a beautiful symbiosis, wherein we all work together to make this thread reach its greatest potential!

Alternately, I chose to pick at an irrelevant piece of your post in return for your doing so to mine.

But I'm pretty sure its the beautiful symbiosis thing

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Nobility is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that she exchanged sex for a service. That is prostitution.

So, prostitutes are beneath you? Less human? Less deserving of decency and respect?

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

No one has ever said that ever. That was never part of the argument.

except for the part where it is, which is specifically what i'm referring to. I'm not talking about Sarkeesian and her inane crap, i'm not talking about lara croft getting raped or not, im not even talking about frank miller's complete failure to write women as people and not mouthy sextoys.
I am talking about the specific petty annoyance I have at being told that it is sexist to enjoy fanservice-y art in cartoons, games, and comics.

DO NOT TELL ME THIS IS NOT A THING
All that does is make you wrong.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Okay but what if thats the only stories he wants to write? Should he only write what society finds acceptable?

*sigh*

We are not talking about stories with new invented characters. In his own borefest of inventions Millar can write what the fuck he wants. I don't need to read that.

We are talking about Miller "recreating" (for lack of a better term) already established characters with a ton of backstory into nothing more than helpless sextoys waiting for Batman to save them.

He wants to write his stories? Fine, do that. But don't defend him shitting over strong female characters with a ton of backstory just so he can be a misogynistic idiot.

So... just to be clear is Frank Miller's fault that DC Comics hired him to write the book, it's also his fault that DC Comics liked it enough to actually publish it.

Kevin Smith made Batman piss his pants in his Batman story, should we shit all over that too?

A sex industry they took over and controlled, and controlled for some time, and they were feared enough that the rest of the other rival families wouldn't dare take them on for it until they made their mistake.

Yeah? So why didn't they move into a form of crime that they could wear human clothes for and not catch STDs from, if they're such a competent force to be reckoned with?

Because it's a Frank Miller book and whoring is the only option for women in his books. That is the answer to that question.

I don't think anyone can take a look at a comic like Sin City and not think it's an awesome piece of literature.

I can and do. It's boring and pretentious; it's all style with no substance. It's revenge porn and objectification, and nothing but.

You don't think it could be noble to sacrifice one's self-respect or good name in order to try and help someone you cared about, or for the greater good?

Nobility is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that she exchanged sex for a service. That is prostitution.

They didn't want to...?

And it's not porn, it's legit piece of literature. You're wrong.

 

[Kmadden2004]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Isn't she the only woman in the series [collective works of Frank Miller] who isn't a prostitute?

Didn't he write KickAss? I'm pretty sure HitGirl isn't blowing anyone.

No, that's Mark Miller. Though for the record, there were a few paedophile, loli gags at the expense of her and her inappropriately fetishistic outfit. At least in the movie, anyway.

Yes, i've been corrected. And you're right, they did oddly sexualize that little girl.

I wouldn't say they necessarily sexualised Hit Girl (at least in the movie, I haven't read the books yet), nor was the imagery necessarily at "her expense", since they put her in the stereotypical Catholic school uniform quite a while after her character had been firmly established in our minds as anything but a sexualised Lolita fantasy. So, when she turns up at the mob's HQ in that uniform, we - the audience - know that she is playing into the preconceptions the gangsters guarding the place would have about somebody her age. We're essentially in on the joke that she is playing.

And even when they showed the uniform, there was nothing truly fetishistic about it, it was just a standard blouse/tie/skirt combination that is commonplace for any school uniform. Again, any unsettling or sexual connotations really stemmed more from the individual audience member's prejudice.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Isn't she the only woman in the series [collective works of Frank Miller] who isn't a prostitute?

Didn't he write KickAss? I'm pretty sure HitGirl isn't blowing anyone.

No, that's Mark Miller. Though for the record, there were a few paedophile, loli gags at the expense of her and her inappropriately fetishistic outfit. At least in the movie, anyway.

Yes, i've been corrected. And you're right, they did oddly sexualize that little girl.

I wouldn't say they necessarily sexualised Hit Girl (at least in the movie, I haven't read the books yet), nor was the imagery necessarily at "her expense", since they put her in the stereotypical Catholic school uniform quite a while after her character had been firmly established in our minds as anything but a sexualised Lolita fantasy. So, when she turns up at the mob's HQ in that uniform, we - the audience - know that she is playing into the preconceptions the gangsters guarding the place would have about somebody her age. We're essentially in on the joke.

And even when they showed the uniform, there was nothing truly fetishistic about it, it was just a standard blouse/tie/skirt combination that is commonplace for any school uniform. Again, any unsettling or sexual connotations really stemmed more from the individual audience member's prejudice.

Let everyman be their own judge, but the school girl outfit did bother me... so did that one kid that was like "I wanna marry her!" and his friend was all "but dude she's 8!" and the guy was all "I don't care, I'll wait!"

 

[JimB]

And she killed him when he went back on his promise, in turn leading her to expose him for being a traitor.

Doesn't negate the underlying act, though.

Yeah I'd say she is more than the one dimensional character you make her out to be as.

Eh. Taking revenge on a rapist doesn't imply much in the way of a personality...but yeah, it's more than a lot of Miller's female characters get. I do have to grant that much.

...what did I just read?

Hold on, let me dig up a link...

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml

There. If you ever want to laugh yourself sick, enjoy that review of F.A.T.A.L. It's comedy gold.

What does the measurements of a person's body have to do with medieval time period?

Sorry, I got distracted by my baffled hate of that game and lost the point I was trying to make. My point was that Hall claims it is to depict all women in the medieval setting of his game as prostitutes and rapebait because it is "historically accurate," yet his love of historical accuracy is clearly a lie if he won't spend one bloody word on the topic of STDs.

You just described almost every James Bond movie to me. Is Ian Fleming now a person who hates women?

Couldn't tell you. I've never watched the movies nor read the books.

What kind of polishing agent do you use?

A household metal polisher, compounded with the tears of orphans.

Okay, apologies I misunderstood.

It happens. As long as we're on the same page now.

That said, wouldn't Miho's character be an example of a "strong woman?"

I don't feel qualified to answer that because I never have any idea what "strong woman" means. In conversations like these, it seems to mean "a proficient killer." If that's the standard of a strong woman, then yeah, sure, she's strong, I guess.

I didn't realize that you knew her nationality and that Sin City took place during feudal Japan(1185?1868).

Miho is a Japanese name, so I'm making an assumption as to her nationality. As to the specific time frame and location: That's absurd and I think you know it. If someone follows the practices of a given sect, it is perfectly fair to describe that person as a member of that sect.

So, prostitutes are beneath you? Less human? Less deserving of decency and respect?

Oh, please. That isn't even close to anything I've said, and you know it. Stop burning straw men, or at least get better at it.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

So, prostitutes are beneath you? Less human? Less deserving of decency and respect?

Oh, please. That isn't even close to anything I've said, and you know it. Stop burning straw men, or at least get better at it.

So.... how does this work? Does pointing out ones arguing tactic suddenly mean you don't have to counter it?

Someone starts throwing a punch at you.
You: YOU ARE THROWING A PUNCH.
Guy stops swinging.
Guy: Damn. You got me. I WAS throwing a punch. Boy you sure got me!

 

[JimB]

They didn't want to...?

That is not a reason. It is an expression of desire. A reason would be, "Because they enjoy having men of unknown medical history hosing their innards with his genetic filth."

And it's not porn; it's legit piece of literature.

I did not say it's porn. I said it's revenge porn. Sort of like how the Twilight books are abstinence porn, and how they qualify as literature to an equal degree as Sin City.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

I may be misremembering events, but I'm pretty sure every female character, whether good guy or bad guy, makes an earnest attempt to service the Spirit's hog with her hot body because that's what women do, right? They have sex with men regardless of any connection to him?

In the women's defense, Miller's The Spirit is established to have sex powers. So at least their ridiculous behavior isn't THEIR fault.

As for the other comment, I misread this post the first time and didn't misunderstood your context.