In Defense Of Consoles & Gamepads

[nomadic_chad]

I think this is yet another topic where personal opinion is going to be hefted around to downplay the other game system's mechanics/gameplay.

If you like consoles, stick to consoles. If you like PC's, stick to PC's. If you like both, etc.

Bitching and moaning about something you don't prefer just doesn't make sense. If you're a convert from one to the other, then maybe you weren't really the first one anyway.

*edit*
I've never played a PC shooter and felt, this would be much better with fewer action choices or this would be better on a console. I have played several console games that I felt would be better with more action choices or on a PC. I play PC, 360, and PS3, and I feel like all platforms' games are becoming dumbed down. What the hell is wrong with a little complexity?

 

[Jamash]

I remember a time when the only keys I needed were Q,A,O,P and Space... then a generation later I was playing Street Fighter 2 with a 1 button joystick.

 

[Netrigan]

I think this is yet another topic where personal opinion is going to be hefted around to downplay the other game system's mechanics/gameplay.

If you like consoles, stick to consoles. If you like PC's, stick to PC's. If you like both, etc.

Bitching and moaning about something you don't prefer just doesn't make sense. If you're a convert from one to the other, then maybe you weren't really the first one anyway.

I like PC gaming. I only abandoned it a year ago when Crysis not only crashed but took my save game with it. I'm glad I spent all those years pursuing it... but when the Xbox debuted, I was of the opinion that they needed to be shaken up. What happened to Thief and Deus Ex annoys me to this day.

I didn't think console gaming would become this dominant and it saddens me to watch the PC gaming scene slowly die, and it's so strange not to see the PC scene pushing the graphical envelope... but I think consoles have picked up the FPS torch and have done amazingly well with it.

 

[Continuity]

You know what I find funny? Console gamers like myself find it irritating about keyboard controls and, equally, PC gamers usually can't stand a game controller.

Its simple enough to explain, console gamers find the flexibility and power of the PC control-scape bewildering and PC gamers find the simplicity of a controller limiting.

Seriously, try playing X3: Terran conflict with a xbox 360 controller.

 

[Erana]

You know what I find funny? Console gamers like myself find it irritating about keyboard controls and, equally, PC gamers usually can't stand a game controller.

Its simple enough to explain, console gamers find the flexibility and power of the PC control-scape bewildering and PC gamers find the simplicity of a controller limiting.

Seriously, try playing X3: Terran conflict with a xbox 360 controller.

Its not bewildering, its more of a, "Wragh, should I really need all these buttons? Can't the control scheme just be more streamlined?"
And sometimes, no, it can't. So then I'll play the game on a computer, then. There's no rule against someone having both, after all.

 

[Talshere]

I will start by pointing out very VERY few PC games have only 2 buttons on their mouse. When a 5 button mouse costs as little as £5 there is no reason not to have one. As such I am modifying your post, and enter italics where I have done so

I'm a fairly recent PC-to-console convert. Love the PC gaming of my past, but as the Console Age was dawning, they had a serious problem. That problem was Feature Creep. Simple FPS games were starting to ship with leaflets illustrating the control scheme for the game. To show you how far they had come from the Doom days, take a look at Far Cry's default controls.

Movement:
Forward-W
Strafe Left-A
Down-S
StrafeRight-D
Jump-Space
Crouch-Ctrl
Prone-V
Walk-Z (Most games with have one or the other not both unless you can toggle auto walk/run)
Sprint-Shift
Lean-LeftQ
Lean-RightE

Multiplayer:
Chat-Y (Can be changed to anything, personally I use T and Y for chats, plus voice chat is available on most games now)
Team-V[/i]
Scoreboard-Tab

Game:
Use-F
Hold Breath-Enter (this normally pages to another button while zoomed eg on CoD4:1 shift (run) will hold breath while in sniper zoom, integral to realism in sniping as well as toning down the effectiveness of snipers on a mouse)
Flashlight-Num / (Often not needed in multiplayer)
Binoculars-B (normally just part of the zoom function IE right click)
CryVision-T (Specific perk of one game, a console would also have to find room for this)
Screenshot-F12 (Seriously? Come on, you have ALWAYS been able to screenshot, there is a cluster of 9 keys to the right of backspace, youll note one of them is called print screen. If it REALLY bothers you they have a completely redundant key as screenshot, just rebind it to printscreen)
Switch View-F (Most games on PC aren't stupid enough to attempt 2 different vision modes for one stage, one of them always handles like a bull in heat)

Combat:
Fire-Mouse 1
Reload-R
Toggle Fire-X (Im not exactly sure what you mean by toggle fire. Elaborate?)
Next Weapon-Page Down(Mouse scroll)
Prev. Weapon-Page Up
Drop Weapon-J (normally integrated into change weapon, same as consoles)
Cycle Grenades-H (attached grenades to buttons 3 (button 3 is the click function on the mouse wheel),4 and 5 on your mouse, otherwise since PC FPS's are identical to console ones, all this does is make it easier to use grenades)
Throw Grenades-G (as above)
Zoom-Mouse 2
Zoom In-Mouse Wheel Up (Assuming you can zoom, which in most FPS's you cant these days)
Zoom Out-Mouse Wheel Down
Weapon 1-1(Mouse wheel)
Weapon 2-2
Weapon 3-3
Weapon 4-4

Now, some of these things are just options for people who like to play games a certain ways. Weapon selection is done via number keys, mouse wheel, or weapon cycle keys... so it's not quite as bad as it looks; but it was getting frakkin' bad.

Not only do I have a run key, I have a walk key. Why?

Crouch and Lie Prone are two separate keys.

There's a friggin' hold breath key. Seriously, you can hold your breath.

Keep in mind, this isn't some FPS/RPG hybrid that utilizes a whole bunch of elements not typically found in shooters, these are the sort of options that were creeping into all standard issue games. Switch view (F) allowed you to switch between first and third person view, which you did a lot in vehicle mode because of camera issues. You got a key for Reload and for Use. Each inventory item has its own use key. There's a key to toggle grenade types and a key to toggle between semi and full automatic.

And there's a lot of PC gamers who look upon this list and go "that's what I want from a game", but I got tired of spending 10 minutes trying to figure out how to adapt this list of features to my standard FPS key mapping. This is why when I heard Microsoft was entering the game with the Xbox, I thought "good", because someone need to come along and simplify this mess.

It's a simple shooter with a simplified stealth mechanic... there's no reason it should be this complicated.

Having multiple ways to do one thing such as to change weapon, is to cater to those who perhaps dont have a mouse wheel or simply prefer using the number keys. Unfortunately one of the greatest strengths of PCs, not having to rely on one company to deliver you good quality products, also means there is no standardised PC control system. It is however very easy to work around. In reality however most games have half the buttons there, for your benefit the ones in BOLD are either duplicates to compensate for control variety or are paged to other keys or simply are not in most games. All of a sudden the list isnt so big.

 

[Netrigan]

Oh really? I see an error in your thinking.

Doom's keys
Movement:
Forward-W
Left-A
Down-S
Right-D
Jump-Space
Crouch-C
Sprint-Shift

Fire-LMB/Ctrl

Weapon 1-1
Weapon 2-2
Weapon 3-3
Weapon 4-4
Weapon 5-5
Weapon 6-6
Weapon 7-7
Weapon 8-8
Weapon 9-9

Switch weapons [ ]
(AFAICR...been a long time)

Console ~
Menu Select - Enter
Back - Escape

Now, if you're adding new features all the time, like 3D...doesn't it make sense to have those bound to certain keys? I can pick up 99% of games and know they'll use perhaps 2 or 3 key sets.

Anything I don't know: Escape - Options - Controls - Escape - Escape - Grenade.

Now if you're talking about fixed keys, fixed screensize, or other such de-features, then we've got something to go on.

Doom didn't have jumping or crouching. And it would be a couple of years before the classic WASD set-up became the norm, so you used the left & right arrow keys to turn. The right mouse buttons was the STRAFE toggle. Double-click of the right button to use a switch.

So, controls were the four arrow keys, the two mouse buttons, the numeric keys, and the TAB for the map. And the sprint key, which didn't toggle. I remember jamming a penny into the keyboard to keep it pressed down

Anyway, I know devs were having concerns about the growing complexity of their games prior to the Xbox. Of more concern was the widening skill divide between the WASD players and the ones still using the the arrows for turning. A boss fight that was a breeze for me was often considered impossibly hard by other players, because I knew how to circle-strafe.

These days, everyone does it without knowing that it's a thing.

 

[Telperion]

Its simple enough to explain, console gamers find the flexibility and power of the PC control-scape bewildering and PC gamers find the simplicity of a controller limiting.

I can't hit anything with mouse + keyboard, but using a regular pad I'm good enough to play multiplayer online and usually get a top 5 score with two 12 player teams. On the other hand, if we are talking about anything besides FPS games, I don't even know why I own a console.

Hey, one thing just struck me. Who in the blazes came up with the control scheme for games like Tekken 6? I bought the game out of curiosity, because I got a free arcade stick out of the deal. Seriously, though: I have owned the game for a year now, and I haven't learned a single fighters complete move list? There's just a ridiculous amount of combos and moves that put even a hardcore flight simulator like DCS: Black Shark to shame. I learned the manual start up sequence for the helicopter in a few days, but trying to make sense of all the moves in Tekken 6 is crazy. And that's just for one character! There are dozens of them!

 

[Netrigan]

I will start by pointing out very VERY few PC games have only 2 buttons on their mouse. When a 5 button mouse costs as little as £5 there is no reason not to have one. As such I am modifying your post, and enter italics where I have done so

I'm a fairly recent PC-to-console convert. Love the PC gaming of my past, but as the Console Age was dawning, they had a serious problem. That problem was Feature Creep. Simple FPS games were starting to ship with leaflets illustrating the control scheme for the game. To show you how far they had come from the Doom days, take a look at Far Cry's default controls.

Movement:
Forward-W
Strafe Left-A
Down-S
StrafeRight-D
Jump-Space
Crouch-Ctrl
Prone-V
Walk-Z (Most games with have one or the other not both unless you can toggle auto walk/run)
Sprint-Shift
Lean-LeftQ
Lean-RightE

Multiplayer:
Chat-Y (Can be changed to anything, personally I use T and Y for chats, plus voice chat is available on most games now)
Team-V[/i]
Scoreboard-Tab

Game:
Use-F
Hold Breath-Enter (this normally pages to another button while zoomed eg on CoD4:1 shift (run) will hold breath while in sniper zoom, integral to realism in sniping as well as toning down the effectiveness of snipers on a mouse)
Flashlight-Num / (Often not needed in multiplayer)
Binoculars-B (normally just part of the zoom function IE right click)
CryVision-T (Specific perk of one game, a console would also have to find room for this)
Screenshot-F12 (Seriously? Come on, you have ALWAYS been able to screenshot, there is a cluster of 9 keys to the right of backspace, youll note one of them is called print screen. If it REALLY bothers you they have a completely redundant key as screenshot, just rebind it to printscreen)
Switch View-F (Most games on PC aren't stupid enough to attempt 2 different vision modes for one stage, one of them always handles like a bull in heat)

Combat:
Fire-Mouse 1
Reload-R
Toggle Fire-X (Im not exactly sure what you mean by toggle fire. Elaborate?)
Next Weapon-Page Down(Mouse scroll)
Prev. Weapon-Page Up
Drop Weapon-J (normally integrated into change weapon, same as consoles)
Cycle Grenades-H (attached grenades to buttons 3 (button 3 is the click function on the mouse wheel),4 and 5 on your mouse, otherwise since PC FPS's are identical to console ones, all this does is make it easier to use grenades)
Throw Grenades-G (as above)
Zoom-Mouse 2
Zoom In-Mouse Wheel Up (Assuming you can zoom, which in most FPS's you cant these days)
Zoom Out-Mouse Wheel Down
Weapon 1-1(Mouse wheel)
Weapon 2-2
Weapon 3-3
Weapon 4-4

Now, some of these things are just options for people who like to play games a certain ways. Weapon selection is done via number keys, mouse wheel, or weapon cycle keys... so it's not quite as bad as it looks; but it was getting frakkin' bad.

Not only do I have a run key, I have a walk key. Why?

Crouch and Lie Prone are two separate keys.

There's a friggin' hold breath key. Seriously, you can hold your breath.

Keep in mind, this isn't some FPS/RPG hybrid that utilizes a whole bunch of elements not typically found in shooters, these are the sort of options that were creeping into all standard issue games. Switch view (F) allowed you to switch between first and third person view, which you did a lot in vehicle mode because of camera issues. You got a key for Reload and for Use. Each inventory item has its own use key. There's a key to toggle grenade types and a key to toggle between semi and full automatic.

And there's a lot of PC gamers who look upon this list and go "that's what I want from a game", but I got tired of spending 10 minutes trying to figure out how to adapt this list of features to my standard FPS key mapping. This is why when I heard Microsoft was entering the game with the Xbox, I thought "good", because someone need to come along and simplify this mess.

It's a simple shooter with a simplified stealth mechanic... there's no reason it should be this complicated.

Having multiple ways to do one thing such as to change weapon, is to cater to those who perhaps dont have a mouse wheel or simply prefer using the number keys. Unfortunately one of the greatest strengths of PCs, not having to rely on one company to deliver you good quality products, also means there is no standardised PC control system. It is however very easy to work around. In reality however most games have half the buttons there, for your benefit the ones in BOLD are either duplicates to compensate for control variety or are paged to other keys or simply are not in most games. All of a sudden the list isnt so big.

I did say some of these things were redundancies to cater to the differing play styles... but Far Cry was a pretty complicated beast.

Crouch/Lie Prone... I think this should be one key. Press quickly to crouch, hold to go prone. Hold again to enter crouch from a prone state. Press again to stand.

Reload/Use/Hold Breath... really only needs to be one key. These aren't commands that tend to overlap. Also could be used to switch weapons (I think Far Cry made you drop a weapon before you could pick up another one, but it's been a while).

Toggle Fire... this was a bit of extra complexity that didn't show up in many games not Crytech. It lets you toggle between semi-auto and full-auto fire modes. Most players would just do this by pressing the fire button once for semi, holding down for full.

Switch View... lots of games had a 3rd/1st person switch command, but you almost never touched it. The jungle environments in Far Cry and a crappy chase camera made this an essential command. When you couldn't see your vehicle in 3rd person mode and were hung up on something, you switched to 1st to get unstuck.

I loved Far Cry. I even loved the stealth element that most people think is non-existent (stealth was used to plan an assault, not something you could use *after* it started... and if you avoided the main roads and moved through the jungle, they usually didn't see you coming). I made good use of almost all its features, but it was a bear to map. I was tweaking that thing all through the game.

 

[Talshere]

I did say some of these things were redundancies to cater to the differing play styles... but Far Cry was a pretty complicated beast.

Crouch/Lie Prone... I think this should be one key. Press quickly to crouch, hold to go prone. Hold again to enter crouch from a prone state. Press again to stand.

As someone who played CoD4:1 on PC competitive, this would cripple gameplay. You aim so fast with a mouse, that in the time delay required for holding to go prone, 3 different snipers have riddled your body with 12 different bullets.

Reload/Use/Hold Breath... really only needs to be one key. These aren't commands that tend to overlap. Also could be used to switch weapons (I think Far Cry made you drop a weapon before you could pick up another one, but it's been a while).

I disagree with this. Hold breath certainly shouldnt be the same button as reload, it adds to delay unnecessarily. I much prefer my hold breath to be on my run key, since Im never going to be running while zoomed, but I might want to reload while zoomed. Having it overlap with use works but only if multiplayer has no need of the use function, otherwise opening doors could become.....Interesting.

Toggle Fire... this was a bit of extra complexity that didn't show up in many games not Crytech. It lets you toggle between semi-auto and full-auto fire modes. Most players would just do this by pressing the fire button once for semi, holding down for full.

Can be added to my list of unnecessary things that are never used

Switch View... lots of games had a 3rd/1st person switch command, but you almost never touched it. The jungle environments in Far Cry and a crappy chase camera made this an essential command. When you couldn't see your vehicle in 3rd person mode and were hung up on something, you switched to 1st to get unstuck.

It is essentially classified as unused. Adding a button to compensate for poor game design doesn't count It should never have been released this way.

I loved Far Cry. I even loved the stealth element that most people think is non-existent (stealth was used to plan an assault, not something you could use *after* it started... and if you avoided the main roads and moved through the jungle, they usually didn't see you coming). I made good use of almost all its features, but it was a bear to map. I was tweaking that thing all through the game.

I dont see having a game with lots of function as an issue providing its been designed for it. If Cyrsis was available on console with half the buttons of the PC version, I would start to question. As while some things have to be cut to cope with the limits of a pad, removing half the buttons is removed half the game. But as it wasnt. I cant see the problem.

 

[Netrigan]

As someone who played CoD4:1 on PC competitive, this would cripple gameplay. You aim so fast with a mouse, that in the time delay required for holding to go prone, 3 different snipers have riddled your body with 12 different bullets.

Depends on how fast the animation is. A tap for crouch, but if you're still holding by the time you're in a crouch, you go for the prone. I think you could probably find a timing that would work.

I disagree with this. Hold breath certainly shouldnt be the same button as reload, it adds to delay unnecessarily. I much prefer my hold breath to be on my run key, since Im never going to be running while zoomed, but I might want to reload while zoomed. Having it overlap with use works but only if multiplayer has no need of the use function, otherwise opening doors could become.....Interesting.

Not being a multiplayer, I don't think like that... but point being, they don't need unique keys. Double, triple, and quadruple duty can be ironed out. Reload and use tended to work pretty good together. The odd open door when you tried reloading at the wrong time, but you quickly learn not to do that. And a lot of game have auto-doors, so use only really worked on switches, which are rare in MP.

Very side note about really fun PC mapping... I used to know this guy who mapped his health use kit in Duke 3D to the forward arrow, so he'd stay healed in MP. Double and triple binding functions to the same key was great... when they actually let you do it. Most games only allowed the single function... BOO! HISS!

I dont see having a game with lots of function as an issue providing its been designed for it. If Cyrsis was available on console with half the buttons of the PC version, I would start to question. As while some things have to be cut to cope with the limits of a pad, removing half the buttons is removed half the game. But as it wasnt. I cant see the problem.

I'm curious how well they did the Far Cry console ports. Not enough to actually buy it on XBL, but curious nonetheless.

 

[CmdrGoob]

Gamepads are awful for so many types of games.

Forget mouse aiming, how about the fact that you can't even use the right analogue stick and the face buttons at the same time. Want to aim while doing a melee attack? Good luck. It's even worse for action games like DMC4 or Darksiders because it means you can even attack and aim the camera at the same time; the game has to come with clunky workarounds that make the camera focus on an enemy to make up for the fact that you can't use the right stick. It sucks.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Anyone complaining about controls...has not played (or TRIED to play) Battlecruiser: Millennium.

I'm serious; the game has over 500 default shortcut keys and key-combos.
It absolutely dwarfs its nearest competitor in terms of needless complexity (being X3: Terran Conflict). If you want to talk about feature creep, Battlecruiser has all contenders beat before they even step into the ring: It actively CHOKED the fun out of its game with the Feature Creep.

On an unrelated note: Why do we need to classify ourselves as "Console gamer" or "PC gamer"? What point does it serve other than blatantly asking for trolling.
I play both; I enjoy both. And there are merits to each.

 

[Talshere]

Depends on how fast the animation is. A tap for crouch, but if you're still holding by the time you're in a crouch, you go for the prone. I think you could probably find a timing that would work.

In CoD4:1 by pressing the prone button was only marginally slower than crouching because instead of the animation going standing->crouched->prone, there was an actually animation for diving from standing to prone. In this situation, there is no way to keep the same speed without breaking the visuals of the game horrifically because it would require you to almost teleport from crouched to prone.

Not being a multiplayer, I don't think like that... but point being, they don't need unique keys. Double, triple, and quadruple duty can be ironed out. Reload and use tended to work pretty good together. The odd open door when you tried reloading at the wrong time, but you quickly learn not to do that. And a lot of game have auto-doors, so use only really worked on switches, which are rare in MP.

Very side note about really fun PC mapping... I used to know this guy who mapped his health use kit in Duke 3D to the forward arrow, so he'd stay healed in MP. Double and triple binding functions to the same key was great... when they actually let you do it. Most games only allowed the single function... BOO! HISS!

As I say, if there are no reasons to use the use element of the reload function in MP then I cant see this as a problem. But in competitive play, it does make a difference, if your having a gun fight across a room using a door for cover, how do you reload? You need to turn a minimum of 90 degrees to reload which again could be crippling in fast paced multiplayer combat. The reason many games dont allow multi function buttons is because they are console ports, and as such would require a serious rework of the game to make it work, which they cba with.

I'm curious how well they did the Far Cry console ports. Not enough to actually buy it on XBL, but curious nonetheless.

Its graphics were bad...... Relatively.

 

[Graevan]

>>sigh<<
"You get used to it."
That is my default statement on console/PC controls.
This statement gets an additional comment depending upon which I'm defending.
If defending PC: "If you can't get used to it, change the controls to something you can get used to."
If defending console: "If you can't get used to it, stop playing. This isn't a game for you."

In the ongoing battle between PC vs Console there are always going to be pros and cons to both sides in EVERY argument.
Just accept the stalemate and move on.

Each to their own and all that jazz....

 

[Netrigan]

In the ongoing battle between PC vs Console there are always going to be pros and cons to both sides in EVERY argument.
Just accept the stalemate and move on.

If anyone pays any sort of attention to my posts, they'll notice that I enjoy making a stand, then immediately undermining it (numerous examples in this thread). Console gaming does a lot of things right... and a lot of things wrong. And the same is true of PC gaming.

But I was thinking about Far Cry recently and decided to have a bit of fun with a damn good game that illustrated some of the frustration that I think most PC gamers feel from time to time. PC gaming was one of those things that always required a fair bit of effort. I remember spending a couple of hours getting Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight to work. One of my all time favorite games, but I was spitting blood before I even had a chance to play it. Near the end of my PC days, I was endlessly annoyed with this shallow water glitch that popped up in Bioshock. Updated my drivers, yadda yadda yadda, but every time there was shallow water on the screen, I saw pink and green artifacting. And on and on. I eventually looked at the games on the consoles, looked at them on the PC, and decided it just wasn't worth fighting anymore.

Then the blu-ray player that looked like a PS3 suddenly became an item of fun and eventually charmed me with its wares and opened me up to the joys (and frustrations) of console gaming.

 

[Netrigan]

Unless of course, you use a mouse with your console...at which point you're just playing on a gaming PC without mods and with a lower graphics threshold.

And a much more stable gaming platform

Stability was the biggest issue that made me jump ship. After I moved up to Rhode Island, I spent about two years not having any time to game, so I finally got around to playing Crysis which had been sitting on my harddrive since before my move. I was starting to get reasonably far into the game and hit one of the frequent crashes... this one wiped my save game. Given a choice between starting over and saying "fuck it", I said "fuck it".