Infinity Ward Responds to Modern Warfare 2 Controversy

[Treblaine]

I don't believe I've said anything in this post specifically defending their actions. I'm defending the philosophy of "there's nothing wrong with making PC gaming more accessible," certainly.

Err, your entire article was about Dedicated Servers being REMOVED.

That REDUCES accessibility for MILLIONS of Modern Warfare fans who have known, loved and made the best of the dedicated server setup.

You seem to keep trying to change the subject to how ADDING matchmaking can be great but everyone else on this thread is having a completely different argument about why REMOVE a feature that works wonderfully precisely because it offers the simple thing... choice.

Now their latest IW press release is pretty ambiguous though it seems like it is locked down like the consoles and why can't you accept that removing this freedom is fail?

Who cares if matchmaking is added, that's a red herring, why is it that (as it appears) we won't be able to select the server we want?

Choice matters a lot to people. PC gamers didn't spend loads of money on their rig to get locked down to a system of Activision oversight just like a console game.

 

[sturryz]

why not use that thing L4D used? i liked that alot.

 

[Turtleboy1017]

I really want to meet these people who have trouble navigating a server browser.

Surely natural selection should have done it's thing by now.

Here's the thing. The people who have trouble navigating a server browser are people who don't play PC games because the complexity - whether actual or merely just an appearance - is overwhelming and intimidating. It's a barrier that needs to be overcome to start branching out from the "core" crowd - which is something that I think many developers are trying to do.

You can't, Funk. You cannot make PC gaming a simplistic plug-and-play experience where everything works every single time. There's too many little pieces of a moving puzzle when it comes to PCs. If they have trouble with something as simple as a server browser, they are going to be hopelessly lost in the sauce when something big hits them.

Which is why PC gaming is frustrating to many.

I like TF2. I want to enjoy TF2 with a buddy of mine who now lives on the opposite side of the country, and whose last foray into PC gaming was... uh, possibly the original StarCraft. If we were playing on the 360, it'd be as easy as putting the disc in and playing together. But we don't want to play on the 360, we want to play on the PC. I think IW taking steps to make the PC gaming process as painless as possible is a good thing.

No, they can't fix everything, but that's no excuse to not try to make things easier. It's like saying "Well, my home will never be 100% clean, so I might as well not do the laundry."

'

I gotta disagree with you on that part. PC gaming has never been easier! With applications such as steam, which I hear MW2 will be utilizing to the fullest, connecting to a friends game is as simple as "right click. Join game"

It's been said time and time again but... if it ain't broke, why fix it!? (Or to me, destroy it)

 

[4RT1LL3RY]

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is actually the biggest investment Infinity Ward has ever made into the PC version of our games. It's also the most feature-rich PC version we've ever made. IWNET takes the benefits of dedicated servers and allows them to be utilized and accessed by every player, out of the box, while removing the barrier to entry for players unaware of how to maintain a server on their own.

Can't they leave regular dedicated servers alone? Its not that hard to have dedicated servers. You need an executable for the server to run the game, and a way for the server to connect top the master server to get shown. Its not that hard a feature to add. Let us have both, you already have the executable if you have your own dedicated servers. Just distribute them and let them show up on a list and you are good to go.

This just means that experienced communities can't have servers the way they want them run. A community in the UK doesn't want to be forced to play on a dedicated box in the US. Location is the third most important thing for a server. Just after admins and bandwidth.

Edit: I wouldn't mind a delay if they have proper dedicated server files available at launch.

 

[Count_ZeroOR]

I don't mind Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 not having dedicated PC servers. All of my playing of Call of Duty 4 was on consoles, instead of on the PC. That said, I am a little annoyed about the lack of modding tools, as user created content - including mods - is one of the strengths of the PC at present, and one of the things that Consoles are trying to catch up on.

That said, if MW2 comes with a level editor which allows for importing textures (so, for example, someone could come up with the obligatory Mario Kart level), I wouldn't be as annoyed.

As an aside, I'm also a little put off by Activision's corporate culture, particularly related to how employees are treated (as taken by Bobby Kotick's remarks about trying to build a climate of fear, uncertainty and doubt in the workplace - something I'd only expect the Pointy Haired Boss of Dilbert to say - and not in public). That said, it looks like Infinity Ward is being left out of the FUD, and hopefully, with any luck they'll stay out of the FUD if MW2 does well. We'll see.

 

[Turtleboy1017]

I can't believe this shit. I am literally angry with rage. Seriously though, even if it doesn't mean a lot IW just made a formally loyal fan never buy this game again.

Sounds extreme? Well so does the lack of dedicated servers.

Operation Flashpoint 2 lacked Dedicated servers, multiplayer is now DEAD.

Don't do this IW... you can still fix it.

 

[Chameliondude]

I will not be getting MW2, because activision are being dicks about it, firstly i dont know how they can justify a 25% price hike to uk costomers when equally if not more better games with better grafics and gameplay are set in stone, like uncharted 2 and heavy rain, its not like they are expecting small sales, god no. This is why i think single player story will suffer to leave more room for poltry online maps, because they know if they shat in a box with modern warfare 1 (and called it a sequal), in it and bought a cement mixer of heroin with dev funds they would still have enough preorderes to make enough for another cement mixer of heroin if not 2. If its better than the first i will get a second hand one buuut... im not buying new simply on moral grounds as its blatent extortion of a market they think they hav control over

And now they are activly taking away features for your extra money, congratulations activisions fans, they now own your soul. and your 55 quid.

 

[Ancientgamer]

So how does it work when we have a CEVO match worth $3,500 and we have players from Oregon, Florida, and New Hampshire in the server and no players that live in a central location? Not only would the host get close to zero ping but the players that live 1,000+ miles away would get 150+ ping which is unplayable in a league match where money is on the line. he said that it will connect you with people in your area to achieve smooth gameplay and while that's all good and fine it simply does not work for scrims or matches.



All he keeps saying is private matches, private matches, private matches BUT HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO EASILY FIND A CLAN TO JOIN.

In all previous shooters I have played I hopped around clan servers until I found a group of people I clicked with and who ran a server which was fun to play on, based on this I would then get to know the community and eventually join the clan. Are you saying this should no longer happen, or that we should purely use forums or google to find clans without knowing anything about them?

Looking at everything he is writing this system seems to remove all opportunities for clan members to hop in and out of a public game together where other non clan members can play with them, get to know them and eventually join the clan. All IWNET seems to have is a private match system where a large number of your clan members all need to be on at once for you to play together at that one time.

 

[Paragon Fury]

I think there is something important many of you are forgetting:
He who is inside the system is often less equipped to complain about it than he who observes it from the outside.

In other words, because it is how you are used to doing it, you cannot possibly fathom that another way might be more fair, or better than the one you are currently experiencing.

The only arguements provided against this change have been ones of personal prefence and opinion. No one has actually stated in the defense of servers their actual, neutral, positive benefits to gaming as a whole. Meanwhile, the MM defenders have done this, though sometimes in a biased way. Yet you refuse to hear it.

Personal prefence and opinion are fine for yourself or a small group of people. But when you have to make decisions on a scale that IW or Bungie or EPIC does, personal prefence and opinion get taken out back and shot, replaced by cold, hard logic and fact. It doesn't matter how it makes you "feel" - it matters if it works. And MM far and exceeds its original goal, and blows servers out of the water.

Just so you don't have to look too hard, I'll put the MM points in nice bullets for you.



-Faster: Push a button. Wait couple seconds to a minute or two. Done.

-Easier: No setting up filters, pings, or anything like that. MM does it all automatically, using general settings like desired gametype. No need to know how to manage servers either - P2P is user-friendly.

-More reliable: Since your playing doesn't rely on the whims of a server host, or if someone feels like being a dick, you get a more reliable online experience than servers, which are hit and miss.

-Self-regulating: While servers depend on individual rules and enforcement, MM is based on 1 rules set, and is universally enforced by one or more official enities. Get banned on a server? Find another server. Get banned in MM? Find another game, 'cause you're done punk.

-Fair: MM gives everyone an equal chance to get something they like. It promotes variety, while servers stagnate and strangle it. It doesn't please everyone, but cuts no one out. It breaks the back of team-stackers, gives everyone an equal chance of getting a griefer, and generally keeps all the positives and negatives in a nice equillbrium.

-Player Control: MM offers basically the same flexibilty as servers, without the work. MM systems offer many stock filter options, such as Deathmatch, Objective, Big Teams, etc. usually with a little something for everyone. Further almost all MMs offer Private Matches and Party Lobbies where friends can get togther before looking for a game, or to join their own custom game wth any number of tweakable options, for everything from screwing around to serious competition.




What people need to do is stop bawling, realize this isn't Burger King, that you can't have it your way, and shut up and play. Stop throwing around that "personal freedom" phrase like it actually means something. You have no qualms restricting the fun and freedom of the people you cut out of playing what they like when you have nothing but 2Fort, Karkand or de_dust servers, but when someone levels the playing field you cry foul and bawl and ***** and call home to momma.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Which is why PC gaming is frustrating to many.
I like TF2. I want to enjoy TF2 with a buddy of mine who now lives on the opposite side of the country, and whose last foray into PC gaming was... uh, possibly the original StarCraft. If we were playing on the 360, it'd be as easy as putting the disc in and playing together. But we don't want to play on the 360, we want to play on the PC. I think IW taking steps to make the PC gaming process as painless as possible is a good thing.
No, they can't fix everything, but that's no excuse to not try to make things easier. It's like saying "Well, my home will never be 100% clean, so I might as well not do the laundry."

I think the problem is, John, that us PC owners have grown up with a relative level of complexity to deal with, so we simply cannot see how this can be overwhelming. Equally, the idea of moving down to a compartmentalised console experience is the thing we loathe about all the console ports.

As has been said before, if you were playing TF2 and your friend wants to play, they just message you on Steam, then right click, join game.

If that's proving too complex, then I'm failing to see how people deal with Windows. That's not a insult btw, that's just a completely different PoV to mine that I can't relate to.

Steam, and to an extent Battlenet, have provided a reasonably pain free menu while still allowing LAN and dedicated servers. I give Valve or Turbine the option to check on my computer as a free service. Microsoft and Activision/Blizzard DEMAND IT and that's why I steer well clear of their products when I can.

The main problem comes from "Why are they taking a popular idea OUT of a popular series?" or as Yahtzee would say "What the hell happened to Clive Winston?"

 

[Baggie]

I don't think they've understood what problem we actually have. We don't care about finding servers, we care about not being able to choose and play on the servers we want.

They could have just as easily made BOTH options readily available, which would NOT have pissed the PC community, which means they're probably worried about the pirates. Good thing the community doesn't have to suffer for the people who weren't paying money for the game in the first place.

 

[Emphraim]

I really want to meet these people who have trouble navigating a server browser.

Surely natural selection should have done it's thing by now.

0

Oh Jesus CHRIST THIS!!!

Infinity Ward has already lost my money and all they are doing now is trying to save as can get more money back (from which is understandable)

No dedicated servers= no clans, also they didn't mention didly about mods.

The thing about mods is what is worrying me the most. If mods are almost impossible to be used easily due to the lack of private servers, well then Activision won't be getting my money and the money of at least 20 other people I know for sure.

 

[Turtleboy1017]

snip

I don't want to be labeled a dick, but do you have ANY idea how IGNORANT this is???

Reasearch the stuff you post before you post it!!

More reliable? Fair? Let me tell you something. I own an xbox 360. I had an xbox before that. I was a hardcore gamer on it for 4 long years. I waited at midnight events for Halo 3, CoD 4, and more. Then I decided to invest in a good PC rig, and now my Xbox is collecting dust.

Let me correct you on some of your points your obviously ignorant on.

Servers a glorious thing. Once you have one in your favorites list, double click it, wait a second or two and you're in. Also it never goes down. Also people you like and know will always be on it, so you don't have to worry about getting them down on your friends list the second you think their alright.

Second, it is NOT fair. I can't tell you how many times I have ran into former 4-star generals in Halo 3 who were boosting their buddies, and simply kicked the shit out of us in gametypes like Team Slayer and Team Snipers.

Third, it is NOT more reliable. If the host's roommate decides to start watching a youtube video while he hosts a game, EVERYONE'S ping will suffer. Dedicated servers don't have this shit.

Self-regulating is beyond retarded. PC DOES HAVE THAT. VAC can BAN you from the game. YOU CAN'T PLAY IT AGAIN. Admins can IP ban you, now you're someone else s problem. You keep hacking, every server from here to Tijuana has banned you, you got no reason to play now.

Easier... don't make me laugh. I can't tell you how many times I've played CoD 4 with my buddies and had MAJOR issues with a party system... "Hey Jose you in yet?" "Yeah... but where are you?" "I'm right here man, you're not in?" "God damn this is so aggravating.

Player control: Yeah they give you that basic ability to control... but it is MINUSCULE compared to what you can do on the PC. You want knives only? Bingo. You want AIRSTRIKES ONLY?? BINGO. With the console it's basically spawn time, and round limit. How fun.

So before you go on mouthing off on PC gamers about why we are complaining, LOOK INTO IT. All you do in your post is make yourself look like a presumptions idiot who doesn't know why we are so angry over this.

 

[Turtleboy1017]

I really want to meet these people who have trouble navigating a server browser.

Surely natural selection should have done it's thing by now.

0

Oh Jesus CHRIST THIS!!!

Infinity Ward has already lost my money and all they are doing now is trying to save as can get more money back (from which is understandable)

No dedicated servers= no clans, also they didn't mention didly about mods.

The thing about mods is what is worrying me the most. If mods are almost impossible to be used easily due to the lack of private servers, well then Activision won't be getting my money and the money of at least 20 other people I know for sure.

There are many servers that will automatically install the mod they are running onto your game, no hassle at all. Mods made the game what it is today. Airstrikes, knife throwing, and Gunship bombings were all ideas produced by the various PC community modders, that Infinity Ward took and simply made "official"

With no credit to those who came up with the mod initially.

 

[digitalman]

I'm reposing an argument I made in the earlier thread since I'd like to see some more discussion on the reasons for this change.

I agree with Funk in that the traditional server browser model could use some revamping. Making interfaces accessible to new players is something in every developer's interest. Promoting a difficult mechanic as a wall to keep "n00bs" out doesn't help a gaming community grow and develop.

However, I'm not sure this is the driving force behind this decision. We have seen over the past few years how developers and publishers are trying to find new ways to monetize their games beyond just the initial sales. Many developers have already come under pressure to "MMO-idify" their games, as the potential (or imagined =P ) profits behind monthly income as opposed to a single month of high sales is intoxicating to many. And where this is not possible, (RTS, FPS games) this same concept is nevertheless applied where applicable.

So we have systems like Battle.net and IW.net, even XBox Live. The goal behind these systems is not necessary to make the multilayer experience easier (though there is some incentive to do this) but rather to lock-in and funnel a game's player-base to a single site where it can then be monetized, whether via an access fee or delivering ads. From a business perspective, it makes wonderful sense. Why settle for a few weeks of sales when you can harness the community for the years that they'll be playing your game?

I'm not entirely opposed to this concept so long as it represents a value for the player. But too often we're witnessing traditional freedoms that PC gamers have enjoyed as a result of these changes. There's no technical limitation to why dedicated servers and LAN connections cannot function along side services like Battle and IW.net, and there are many games that exist where both systems function (Supreme Commander's use of GPG.net and LAN play comes to mind.)

It seems all too apparent to me however that this is not a technical limitation, but a business decision hoisted upon the gaming community. Frankly, I'm not comfortable with where it's going.

 

[teh_gunslinger]

snip

I don't want to be labeled a dick, but do you have ANY idea how IGNORANT this is???

Reasearch the stuff you post before you post it!!

More reliable? Fair? Let me tell you something. I own an xbox 360. I had an xbox before that. I was a hardcore gamer on it for 4 long years. I waited at midnight events for Halo 3, CoD 4, and more. Then I decided to invest in a good PC rig, and now my Xbox is collecting dust.

Let me correct you on some of your points your obviously ignorant on.

Servers a glorious thing. Once you have one in your favorites list, double click it, wait a second or two and you're in. Also it never goes down. Also people you like and know will always be on it, so you don't have to worry about getting them down on your friends list the second you think their alright.

Second, it is NOT fair. I can't tell you how many times I have ran into former 4-star generals in Halo 3 who were boosting their buddies, and simply kicked the shit out of us in gametypes like Team Slayer and Team Snipers.

Third, it is NOT more reliable. If the host's roommate decides to start watching a youtube video while he hosts a game, EVERYONE'S ping will suffer. Dedicated servers don't have this shit.

Self-regulating is beyond retarded. PC DOES HAVE THAT. VAC can BAN you from the game. YOU CAN'T PLAY IT AGAIN. Admins can IP ban you, now you're someone else s problem. You keep hacking, every server from here to Tijuana has banned you, you got no reason to play now.

Easier... don't make me laugh. I can't tell you how many times I've played CoD 4 with my buddies and had MAJOR issues with a party system... "Hey Jose you in yet?" "Yeah... but where are you?" "I'm right here man, you're not in?" "God damn this is so aggravating.

Player control: Yeah they give you that basic ability to control... but it is MINUSCULE compared to what you can do on the PC. You want knives only? Bingo. You want AIRSTRIKES ONLY?? BINGO. With the console it's basically spawn time, and round limit. How fun.

So before you go on mouthing off on PC gamers about why we are complaining, LOOK INTO IT. All you do in your post is make yourself look like a presumptions idiot who doesn't know why we are so angry over this.

Thanks for saving me the time for typing up a reply. I will as alwyas just point at the damn lobby system in L4D. Even now when I only play L4D with my clan it's a major hassle to get a game going, waiting in lobbies forever and suffering from crappy ping when the game manages to find a server. No such problems in TF2 or CS:S.

 

[Clashero]

Full LAN support in Starcraft II.

Because I'll be getting MW2 second hand for my 360.

Still, even though I'm not getting MW2 for the PC this seems like a dick move by Infinity Ward, why not offer both dedicated servers and let people who want to host their own servers have that option too? Give people the best of both worlds. Oh he says "Remove the barrier for players unaware of how to maintain their own servers" but...uh, a lot of people already know how to do that. PC Gamers have been doing it for a long time. A very long time. We're not incompetent, or incapable and a hell of a lot of PC gamers are really quite tech savvy.

Also: They really think that there won't be cheats on their official IWNET servers? I lol'd. There are cheaters everywhere. I have yet to find a game which hasn't been hacked even slightly and if people could name one I would be impressed.

I don't remember there being any cheats, duping methods, or even a way to pirate Guild Wars.

Ah crap, I forgot there were bots.

I really want to meet these people who have trouble navigating a server browser.

Surely natural selection should have done it's thing by now.

0

Oh Jesus CHRIST THIS!!!

Infinity Ward has already lost my money and all they are doing now is trying to save as can get more money back (from which is understandable)

No dedicated servers= no clans, also they didn't mention didly about mods.

PRIVATE MATCHES AND PART LOBBIES.



Why do PC gamer have such a hard time accepting this?

Because PC gamers are used to the far superior server browser system. Anyone with 2 braincells capable of synapsis can use it, and you can tailor your search to your needs ("I want a server with 10-20 players, isn't full, isn't pass-protected, has anticheating measures, has a ping under 100 and is playing TDM on a certain map"), it allows clans to pay for their own, 24/7 low-ping server, it allows tournaments to be held.

[blockquote]It's also the most feature-rich PC version we've ever made. [/blockquote]

this is the funniest part of the whole quote, how can it be as feature rich if it doesn't support dedicated servers? sorry but if an older version has a dedicated server and this one doesn't, the older one is more feature rich

I really want to meet these people who have trouble navigating a server browser.

Surely natural selection should have done it's thing by now.

Here's the thing. The people who have trouble navigating a server browser are people who don't play PC games because the complexity - whether actual or merely just an appearance - is overwhelming and intimidating. It's a barrier that needs to be overcome to start branching out from the "core" crowd - which is something that I think many developers are trying to do.

sorry to say this but the people who have trouble navigating server browsers and such are idiots and can't read or even know what they are doing. i've been playing fps games since the days of quake AND i could figure out their server browsers

if you can't read and comprehend what's on the screen then frankly you should be going to school for reading AND computers because in this day and age you're illiterate

True. My first foray into online gaming was Counter Strike, 10 years ago. I figured out how the server browser and filters worked within a minute. I WAS EIGHT YEARS OLD AND HARDLY KNEW ANY ENGLISH. If a Spanish-speaking 8-year-old total newbie can work out a server browser but you can't, you have no place playing online.

 

[Grampy_bone]

This represents a growing trend in the industry to move control of the player experience further under the publisher's control. It used to be game companies bent over backwards tailoring their games for their userbase. Now we are seeing more and more companies tell us how we're *supposed* to be playing and removing all other options.

Like always, the customers will get what they want whether Infinity Ward likes it or not.

All stuff like this does is erode the userbase and diminish the goodwill towards the company. They think that it's worth it to alienate some fans if it means they can milk the remaining ones for more money. However sooner or later this income model becomes unsustainable, and the company fails. For an example of this, look at what Wizards of the Coast is doing right now with the Open Gaming License and the 4th Edition of D&D.

 

[ElArabDeMagnifico]

This is pretty much temporary damage control, another "THEY HAVE RESPONDED TO OUR CRIES!" but have done nothing to actually address the problem, so whatever - the matchmaking bull is here to stay.

I still fail to see why you cannot have both systems, it isn't like the old system is obsolete now. Getting rid of it is totally unnecessary.

 

[Paragon Fury]

snip

I don't want to be labeled a dick, but do you have ANY idea how IGNORANT this is???

Reasearch the stuff you post before you post it!!

More reliable? Fair? Let me tell you something. I own an xbox 360. I had an xbox before that. I was a hardcore gamer on it for 4 long years. I waited at midnight events for Halo 3, CoD 4, and more. Then I decided to invest in a good PC rig, and now my Xbox is collecting dust.

Let me correct you on some of your points your obviously ignorant on.

Servers a glorious thing. Once you have one in your favorites list, double click it, wait a second or two and you're in. Also it never goes down. Also people you like and know will always be on it, so you don't have to worry about getting them down on your friends list the second you think their alright.

Second, it is NOT fair. I can't tell you how many times I have ran into former 4-star generals in Halo 3 who were boosting their buddies, and simply kicked the shit out of us in gametypes like Team Slayer and Team Snipers.

Third, it is NOT more reliable. If the host's roommate decides to start watching a youtube video while he hosts a game, EVERYONE'S ping will suffer. Dedicated servers don't have this shit.

Self-regulating is beyond retarded. PC DOES HAVE THAT. VAC can BAN you from the game. YOU CAN'T PLAY IT AGAIN. Admins can IP ban you, now you're someone else s problem. You keep hacking, every server from here to Tijuana has banned you, you got no reason to play now.

Easier... don't make me laugh. I can't tell you how many times I've played CoD 4 with my buddies and had MAJOR issues with a party system... "Hey Jose you in yet?" "Yeah... but where are you?" "I'm right here man, you're not in?" "God damn this is so aggravating.

Player control: Yeah they give you that basic ability to control... but it is MINUSCULE compared to what you can do on the PC. You want knives only? Bingo. You want AIRSTRIKES ONLY?? BINGO. With the console it's basically spawn time, and round limit. How fun.

So before you go on mouthing off on PC gamers about why we are complaining, LOOK INTO IT. All you do in your post is make yourself look like a presumptions idiot who doesn't know why we are so angry over this.

Anectdotal evidence is not an acceptable defense anywhere, for anything. If you're going to try, at least try it the right way.

1: Favorites lists are an issue of personal prefence and opinion, and as such are not the point or a desired feature when trying to design something that is fair and balanced. In addition, your favorites list exists as yuor friends list and preferred gametype in MM systems.

2: Pure anectodotal evidence, and as such, has no relevance. In addition, it is faulty in its assumpitions that this will happen frequently, or enough to actual cause an issue in MM, whereas in servers it is a very real and common issue.

3: It mainly affects your connection, and even so, it is a personal issue, not a public one. Should everyone be forced to have to deal with the issues surrounding servers because you won't tell your roommate to not use bandwith hoggers while you play games?

4: Servers still require more player regulation and imput, and server systems are far more vulnerable to different kinds of hacking issues than MM systems are.

5: Again, aneticdotal evidence. Millions of people everyday go through it with little to no issues, and you've assumed first it is an issue with the system, rather than something with you or your setup.

6: Private matches have the same level of control as their server counterparts, since player control relies on the game itself, not the room method. And mods are not a card you want to play in the defense of the server system or PCs, because they are a paper thin, easily surmounted arguement, based on math alone.