Is Anime really more mature than Western cartoons?

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Eclectic Dreck

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No.

Anime has cartoons for children just like the west. And the west has cartoons for adults just like anime.

Also, for clarification: When discussing a single medium the word is medium. When discussing two or more the word is media! I blame Ebert for screwing up language on this one.
 

Aedrial

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boholikeu said:
Am I the only one that doesn't get why Anime is considered more mature than Western cartoons? Sure, Anime may be more likely to have mature content (gore, sex), but the stories themselves still seem to be pretty shallow and juvenile. Maybe this is just because I live in Japan and I get to see all the cruddy Anime that never even gets torrented on fansub sites, but it just seems to me like the percent of genuinely thought-provoking Anime is roughly the same as what it is with Western cartoons.

Any thoughts? I'd rather not have this thread turn into an Anime bashing thread, but is anyone else as confused as I am with the supposed "maturity" of Anime?
No, the fans just think it is.

Heh no seriously both can be mature, it depends on intended audience once again.
 

Therumancer

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Pardon me if I'm parroting someone who already posted in the 100+ messages in this thread, I've only read some of it.

Anime is directed at a teenage audience for the most part (with exceptions). There is little that is inherantly intellectual about it, though it does frequently touch on a level of science fiction themes and concepts that rarely see expression in the American media. It's not so much that the plots themselves are deep, or less rife with stereotypes, but a lot of the concepts involved behind those stories can be quite interesting. In general the Western media tends to stay away from things like demons and satanism, mysticism, explorations of addiction, or even handling things like virtual reality and nanotechnology well (both VR and Nanotech have appeared in western cartoons, but far more rarely, and typically not given the same treatment).


Also, like any genere Anime is full of a ton of crud. It's just that people are selective about what they take the time to translate or import for sale. Or rather they WERE selective about it as more and more garbage is released in comparison to the decent stuff from companies looking to make a quick buck on the "fad" (which is gradually losing steam for exactly this reason, the Anime section at some of my local stores like Best Buy has been gradually growing smaller as more and more people are driven away, and it seems that a lot of the consistantly 'best' titles even to the Western Audience when asked are 4-5 years old and even older than that in Japan).


The quality of Anime that makes it to the US is generally higher than most Western Animation, especially seeing as it pulls less punches to fear of offending anyone or invoking ultra-liberal "protect the children" censorship issues. Or at least it does when you can get the uncut stuff which is becoming harder to do, as it's no longer under the radar like it used to be (again leading to a reduction in quality).

People also underestimate the drivel that is American cartoons. At the best American cartoons are highly competitive with Anime despite less in the way of extreme content and involving concepts behind the plot. Comics based cartoons where the creators/liscence holders have an increasingly large involvement, are generally okay (X-men, some of the DC stuff, etc..). But let's not forget we live in a country that turned MC Hammer into a superhero for his own cartoon show, and has taken movies which were amusing in doses (Ace Ventura, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure) and turned them into ongoing cartoon series that could make you lose brain cells.

Shows like "He-Man" and "The Thundercats" with decent concepts behind them for their day, have not aged well despite nostolgia, especially on merits of their animation, and again due to attention 1980s cartoons (even without anyone dying which was prohibited) are viewed as examples of "too much violence for our children" and what pressue is trying to move the american animation industry away from. Making the super-hero cartoons among the few bastions of good animation left in the US in my opinion (not that I watch a lot of them, and even with what I see I'm probably myself somewhat biased due to a combination of uber-nerdom and nostolgia).

I guess ultimatly what I'm saying is that it evens out when you compare the best of both worlds. However there is more Animation in Japan so more "hits" and we generally get to see a lot of the better stuff. At the bottom it's all drivel, but truthfully it's probably a matter of ignorance, but I have not even heard of an anime that has hit the banality of say "Hammer Man" or "Ace Ventura: The Animated Series".

Despite the differances in style I'd probably put a lot of the Disney animated stuff (even if fairly kiddy), and some of the Marvel/DC animated stuff up against the best competitive TV animation from Japan and it would compare well. But then get into the number of episodes as well.

Does anyone think the new X-men show will produce as many episodes (despite the wealth of comic material) as say a Naruto or Bleach? I doubt even Ducktales, counting it's spinoffs (Darkwing Duck, etc..) even come close.

>>>----Therumancer--->
 

NeutralDrow

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Therumancer said:
I think I was aiming for that in part of an earlier post of mine...but you did it in much greater detail and far more eloquently than I did, so I'm glad.

Corwynt said:
The Volume said:
One word: Lolicon.
lol or just hentai in general
Aww, be fair. There's some good hentai. They're extremely rare, but they're out there.
 

CraigJG

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it varies from series to series some are serious and mature or trick you into thinking they are serious and mature, none more true than school days that has you beleive its just a normal day to day journey through the trials and tribulations of high school relationships, coyly slips in some major league wabbos in the well placed swimming episode and then for the last few eps hands full script control to the first person from arkham asylum to get out of their straight jacket, but why complain because everyone loves a bit of fan service, wa wa wee waa!!.
 

scotth266

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NeutralDrow said:
Aww, be fair. There's some good hentai. They're extremely rare, but they're out there.
You must be emphasizing the extremely there, because I have yet to see one. To be fair though, I don't go looking for hentai on my own. It doesn't really suit my tastes (not that into pornography of any kind because of a extreme lack of plot.)

And you know what? Someone above just reminded me of School Days. Watch the whole season of that, and you'll see that anime can occasionally subvert the whole "it's for the kids" idea.

Or if you can't get past the sickeningly sweet romantic opening... [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.SchoolDays]
 

black lincon

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Overall, probably. But going show to show, I guarantee you could find something more mature and thought provoking than Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.
 

NeutralDrow

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Corwynt said:
I know not that I have looked for any good ones. Um I only watch it for *couphs* personal reasons...
Well, I'm not one to pry. Especially on a subject where I might regret getting an answer. And one where I might regret giving an answer, for that matter.

scotth266 said:
NeutralDrow said:
Aww, be fair. There's some good hentai. They're extremely rare, but they're out there.
You must be emphasizing the extremely there, because I have yet to see one. To be fair though, I don't go looking for hentai on my own. It doesn't really suit my tastes (not that into pornography of any kind because of a extreme lack of plot.)
I was. I almost used "vanishingly," instead, until I remembered that there's still plenty of hentai that functions as completely non-disgusting, non-fetishistic pornography, regardless of plot deficiency. And <url=http://media.photobucket.com/image/Shion%20Fujino/terin1/ShionFujino.jpg>Fujino is adorable; I will brook no argument.

Still, I think the only hentai I've seen where I'd actually praise the plot would be Pure Mail (to the point where I fast-forward through three of the four sex scenes). Koihime isn't that bad, either.

That said, I usually like some hentai titles because they're not PWP. The plots may be silly or implausible, but they're still a far sight better than most internet fare, and more sensical than most mainstream stuff I've come across. I'm going to stop talking now, because I just realized what I'm talking about.

And you know what? Someone above just reminded me of School Days. Watch the whole season of that, and you'll see that anime can occasionally subvert the whole "it's for the kids" idea.

Or if you can't get past the sickeningly sweet romantic opening... [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.SchoolDays]
Oh dear god. I haven't seen that one, myself, but I do know its reputation...
 

Ares Tyr

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GothmogII said:
Let's talk grown-up stuff for the moment. So, here's a little challenge.

Can anyone here name a single, current, western animation, aimed at adults, that is not a comedy? And please, no Boondocks or Venture Bros. Dramatic moments they may have, but you are not passing those off as not being comedies.

I guess, if you get stumped, I'll extend it to say, the last, three, four years maybe?

I'd love to be proven wrong, really I would, but my -guess- is, no-one here is going to come up with anything. When asked for mature animation from the west, people will point at Mr.Bakshi, at Fritz the Cat or American Pop. Or maybe mention something from the 90s like The MAXX or Spawn. But the 00s? Be interesting to see if anything -does- come up.
"Tales of the Black Freighter". Granted, it's a vehicle/supporting DVD release from the film The Watchmen, where the comic-within-the-comic from the original graphic novel is given the spot light all by itself. I gots the DVD.

Also, it's not a series. Just a straight-to-DVD release. But it was in Target and Wal-Mart where I live. And I live in South Carolina, so yeah. Not exactly a bastion of culture.

But apart from that small, excusable example, you're point is very valid.
 

scotth266

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NeutralDrow said:
School Days snip.

Oh dear god. I haven't seen that one, myself, but I do know its reputation...
Guess I'll have to attempt to watch those: I really hope you're not pulling my leg there.

And yes, School Days is a hilarious anime to watch, if only for the sudden genre switch. Good lord, when you give a newbie with no prior knowledge that anime, they get suprised HARD. It's funny when you talk to them after the switch: they suddenly become really freaked out whenever you recommend a romance anime to them.
 

Corven

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It's not really an easy question to answer since the topic isn't very specific, like others have said already, you can't say that all Anime is more mature than all western cartoons, because there are so many different genres out there targeted at different age groups that it becomes vague and hard to answer.

For example if you were to ask if the anime Ergo Proxy was more mature than Spongebob, then I'd have to say yes some animes are more mature than western cartoons, but is you compared something like bobobo to spongebob, I'd have to say no they are pretty similar.
 

A random person

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black lincon said:
Overall, probably. But going show to show, I guarantee you could find something more mature and thought provoking than Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.
You probably could, but it's just plain awesome. Proof you don't need deep thought-provoking concepts to make a good show.

Don't get me wrong, I like deep concepts and ideas, I just don't think they're necessary to be a good show.
 

SilentHunter7

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antipunt said:
Western cartoons and.... thought-provoking maturity

Have I been watching the wrong channels, or is something amiss...
You've been watching the wrong channels.

You should go look up Samurai Jack. Specifically, episodes 19 and 20. Best serious western cartoon ever.
 

NeutralDrow

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scotth266 said:
NeutralDrow said:
School Days snip.

Oh dear god. I haven't seen that one, myself, but I do know its reputation...
Guess I'll have to attempt to watch those: I really hope you're not pulling my leg there.
Well, to tell the truth, I know a lot less about Koihime than Pure Mail, but I do recommend the latter. Just...even if you can take the first two sex scenes (they're mildly plot important, but deliberately discomforting, coercion scenes), I recommend skipping the third one; it was completely pointless except as part of a very undeveloped side plot. You could skip all four of them altogether, but the last one is actually pretty cute.

And yes, School Days is a hilarious anime to watch, if only for the sudden genre switch. Good lord, when you give a newbie with no prior knowledge that anime, they get suprised HARD. It's funny when you talk to them after the switch: they suddenly become really freaked out whenever you recommend a romance anime to them.
I'll have to expand my friend pool and try that experiment sometime...
 

A random person

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NeutralDrow said:
Oh dear god. I haven't seen that one, myself, but I do know its reputation...
I haven't seen it, but I have seen the ending. Apparently the main character is rather abusive towards the end and uses the girls, so he gets killed, and the fanbase rejoices. Nice boat indeed.
 

tenlong

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I think on average anime is more edger than american cartoon. The average american cartoon is every y7 material at a kids and some cartoon sitcoms rated pg to ma aimed at all ages.
 

boholikeu

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OP here again. Glad to see all the debate (minus the flame war a few pages back). There is one common misconception that keeps getting stated here though: Anime is NOT more highly regarded in Japan than cartoons are in the West. If you say you like watching a lot of Anime here you'll get roughly the same reaction as you would if you said you liked cartoons in the West. Most people here see Anime as being childish, dorky, or both.

Also, just as another aside, being a dork is much worse over here than it is in the US. I dunno about other countries, but back in the US it seemed like there's often a sort of "dork pride", and most people aren't too ashamed of their dorkier hobbies. Here in Japan the image of a dork is basically that of a narcissistic recluse who sits inside all day getting off to anatomically correct Anime toys.

Evil Jak said:
And no people taking baths isnt sexual... but it isnt a god damn spectator sport! A children cartoon about a 10 year old girl hanging out in a bathhouse doesnt matter if there is nothing sexual about it, bathhouses arent meant for children so putting one there is irresponsible...
Sorry, but he's right. It's just a cultural thing. Children frequently go to bathhouses here in Japan. In fact, sometimes they HAVE TO because not every house here has it's own bath/shower. The bathhouse setting of Spirited Away just isn't sexual at all (at least from a Japanese perspective).

Therumancer said:
I guess ultimatly what I'm saying is that it evens out when you compare the best of both worlds. However there is more Animation in Japan so more "hits" and we generally get to see a lot of the better stuff. At the bottom it's all drivel, but truthfully it's probably a matter of ignorance,
Exactly, this is totally what I was trying to get at in my original post. Well said.

Therumancer said:
but I have not even heard of an anime that has hit the banality of say "Hammer Man" or "Ace Ventura: The Animated Series".
There are quite a few digimon clones over here that reach those depths. They are created for the sole purpose of marketing a toy/card game, and their stories are "stab yourself in the eyes" bad.

edit: oops this got cut out on accident:

GothmogII said:
Can anyone here name a single, current, western animation, aimed at adults, that is not a comedy?
Why is comedy less mature than drama? Satire is considered one of the high arts, after all.

Also, while there aren't that many purely dramatic Western cartoons, the East is equally lacking with things like political satire.
 

NeutralDrow

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boholikeu said:
OP here again. Glad to see all the debate (minus the flame war a few pages back). There is one common misconception that keeps getting stated here though: Anime is NOT more highly regarded in Japan than cartoons are in the West. If you say you like watching a lot of Anime here you'll get roughly the same reaction as you would if you said you liked cartoons in the West. Most people here see Anime as being childish, dorky, or both.
That may be the social perception, but that doesn't change the presence of boatloads of anime targetted more towards adult audiences. If anything, there's a definition disconnect here. While anime fandoms are looked down upon in society, the medium of anime itself is still respected enough that adult-oriented shows like Ghost in the Shell are still semi-mainstream, and animation is more legitimate as an alternative to live action for certain genres.

Also, just as another aside, being a dork is much worse over here than it is in the US. I dunno about other countries, but back in the US it seemed like there's often a sort of "dork pride", and most people aren't too ashamed of their dorkier hobbies. Here in Japan the image of a dork is basically that of a narcissistic recluse who sits inside all day getting off to anatomically correct Anime toys.
The perception and definition of "otaku", yes. Japan is still far more insular and collectivist than the U.S. Then again, which country coined the phrase "living in their parents' basement" as an insult? There's a reason I don't put <url=http://www.1999.co.jp/itbig06/10060479.jpg>certain things on open display (much as I love the characters).

Regardless of how open Japanese and U.S. geeks are about their chosen fandoms, they still, typically, prefer things that treat their given products seriously and with respect, and coinciding with that, there is still a large market for more "matured" themed anime.