Is chivalry dead?

[justnotcricket]

Chivalry may be dead (and really, in its purest sense there is no 'need' for it now), but good manners and small kindnesses are always nice.

The key is these days that they be reciprocated.

Women (to make a huge generalization) aren't actually looking for the 'best of both worlds' in the sense of wanting 'equality' + 'chivalry'. We just want to be accorded equal rights with men. Equal rights are not the same thing as manners.

Argh, how to put this. Let's put it this way. Holding a door open for someone is a respectful gesture - a man would hold the door for his male superior, or a male colleague who is a friend, just as he might hold it for a woman. This is the thing - to stop seeing a difference between a respectful or kind gesture and a chivalrous one, when they're often the same physical action. I know that doesn't hold up for all 'chivalrous' actions, but a number of them translate rather easily.

My only issue is with the subset of men who think that women having 'equal rights' means that they can be rude to women, oddly. Like this would be the sort of person who would hold the door for a male superior or friend, but let it slam in the face of his female colleague because 'well, she can look out for herself'. I know these people are not the majority of men, but equality for women has bred, interestingly, a new kind of militant chauvinist - he still doesn't respect women, but now uses 'equality' to punish them instead of outright (traditional?) 'sexism'. I mention this probably only because I have met one or two. I do not mean to suggest that 'men' are like this in general.

 

[Frotality]

as dave chappelle already told us, women killed it. they sure as hell killed it for me; my every act of minor politeness seen as creepy and desperate while they all went to marry emotionally unstable losers who verbally and physically abuse them.

women want weak, unstable, sometimes even unattractive men to control and 'fix', 90% of the time leading to horrible relationships and domestic abuse cases that they fail at several relationship red flags to predict. at least, thats my experience with nearly all women; i take sturgeons law into account ("90% of everything is crap"; extending that to female dating trends), but even then, its painfully obvious to me that women dont even WANT chivalry at all.

so you can open your own god damn door.

 

[Uskis]

Yes, chivalry is dead, and thank fuck for that.

Finally we can stop having to walk around with all these tired stereotypes and now related to other humans as persons instead of reducing them to their gender all the time.

 

[Sejs Cube]

Point of curiosity, OP - in your view of the situation, how is being chivalrous towards women different from simply being polite in general?

You can hold a door open for someone not because of chivalry, and having nothing to do with their gender, but simply because you're being polite. When sufficiently examined, old-school chivalry actually has some pretty well-hidden interpretational sexism in it. On the surface it might seem like the intention is simply to be polite, and if that's as deep as it goes, that's all well and good. But if it's a politeness that only is extended because of the recipient's gender, well that's something else. It sends a message, intentionally or not, that oh you're a woman, then let me handle this for you. Clearly you need protecting and tending after. It's subtly disempowering. It's patronizing and slightly overbearing. Imagine an over-attentive mother who steps in to do everything for her adult child. Not pleasant in the right light, is it?


Good manners have value in and of themselves. It needn't be anything more than that.

 

[Pearwood]

Is it too much to show some respect to the female gender?

Well my answer to this would be yes it is too much in the way that you're talking about. Now I am male but I was raised by my mother who is quite the feminist and I have to say I feel annoyed by chivalry. I don't like the idea that I hold doors open for a woman because I'm obliged to, I hold doors open for anyone because that's the right thing to do. If we go to a restaurant for our first date we split the bill (obviously romantic surprise dinners further down the line are different), if a woman made me feel threatened and I couldn't get out of a fight I'd feel no guilt over fighting back.

 

[MarxII]

Yes, chivalry is dead, and thank fuck for that.

Finally we can stop having to walk around with all these tired stereotypes and now related to other humans as persons instead of reducing them to their gender all the time.

I'd say this reveals a considerable misunderstanding of the word 'chivalry.'

 

[Uskis]

Yes, chivalry is dead, and thank fuck for that.

Finally we can stop having to walk around with all these tired stereotypes and now related to other humans as persons instead of reducing them to their gender all the time.

I'd say this reveals a considerable misunderstanding of the word 'chivalry.'

How is that a considerable misunderstanding? The idea that the proper man is someone who acts gentle to women because of their fragile nature and need to be serviced I would say is a stereotype. Chivalry is not the same as politeness which goes all ways, but a gender-exclusive concept enforcing a stereotypical notion of "true" masculinity.

I don't mind if you and your partner enjoys this, by all means knock yourself out. I just hate it when people who lament the "loss of chivalry", as if it is some sort of universal good thing in society.

 

[Kortney]

The changing of societies views on etiquette is not "killing" anything. It's social evolution and it is an intrinsic part of being human.

Is the Middle Ages sense of "Chivalry" dead? Yes. Of course it is - and for good reason.

 

[Astoria]

Sadly since many women today are offended by chivalry it is now considered rude and therefore yes, its dead in the general population in much of the world.

Yeah this which makes me sad. My boyfriend holds doors open for me and such though which makes me feel special.

 

[Vakz]

The problem with Chivalry is that it is aimed only at women. I hold the door open for everyone and anyone who is nearby. Old men, young men, old women, young women.

I also am not a man myself.

There is a better name for Chivalry that fits well in equal society. Politeness and manners.

This, exactly. Chivalry was when you were nice and decent towards women, while treating every other man as an "competitor". When the day came that people realized they should be nice and kind towards everyone else, chivalry become, as is said in the quote, politeness and manners.

 

[Ikaruga33]

In the modern times we live in many people believe that chivalry and equal rights can't go hand in hand. But chivalry is the small things you do, such as hold a door open for a women or pull the chair out for them or wait for them to sit before sitting yourself. And I'm here to ask the Escapist, can equal rights between genders and chivalric values be maintained together? Or is it one or the other in an absolute sense?
And why?
I believe that they can be current in today's society, women can still have the same or even more rights then men in many situations, but does that mean we have to stop treating them how most of them deserve to be treated? Is it too much to show some respect to the female gender?

Men and women are completely equal in evrey regard and thus holding a door open just for women is silly

However holding a door open out of courtosey (for any gender) is okay

And as for no violence against women. How about we just dont hit anyone?

If your stronger than someone and you hit them your a prick

If your weaker and you hit someone you get our ass kicked

If you extremely weak and you hit someone (as in so weak you cant do shit) they just do nothing and you look silly

 

[Vakz]

If it became 'politness and manners' then shouldn't that mean it would work both ways?

But it doesn't, does it, it's still expected to be a one way street. OP still wants her chair pulled out and her door opened for her.. selfish and unrealistic.

Actually, not everyone finds it that bad. I, for one, do to some degree enjoy doing those extra small things. I do occasionally pull out a chair for a girl. Same thing with the door.

It doesn't happen that often though. Most girls will simply do it themselves without a second thought, meaning I would just look stupid if I tried to get ahead of them to do it. But when the moment seems right, I do it.

 

[FirmartheTrilby]

It better be dead! It's just another made up bullshit from society. I really hate all this hypocrisy stuffs. Another thing about "chivalry" is that women tend to abuse it heck even teachers do it in school and it just irritates me because women talk how they want to be equal and so on (and don't get me wrong I think it's right thing and I fully support women in it!) but when they get first chance most of women go and abuse so called chivalry. I suppose it can go in hand with equal rights if it's not abused but you know what? I treat everyone same, when I don't rush I hold door for both males and females no matter how old they are but if you are not exactly nice person I don't care if you are male or female or if you are kid or pensioner I am going to be honest with you and I may be even rude if you go too far.

 

[MarxII]

How is that a considerable misunderstanding? The idea that the proper man is someone who acts gentle to women because of their fragile nature and need to be serviced I would say is a stereotype. Chivalry is not the same as politeness which goes all ways, but a gender-exclusive concept enforcing a stereotypical notion of "true" masculinity.

I don't mind if you and your partner enjoys this, by all means knock yourself out. I just hate it when people who lament the "loss of chivalry", as if it is some sort of universal good thing in society.

Where you err is in your notion that chivalry is rooted in a condescending view of the fairer sex, and that it is in effect some manner of pervasive brainworm which in itself disallows an essentially equitable exchange amongst genders.

But it's not just at you I direct this, rather I detect throughout the thread a meme equating chivalrous conduct with a unambiguously Victorian world view.

 

[Strixvaliano]

The problem with Chivalry is that it is aimed only at women. I hold the door open for everyone and anyone who is nearby. Old men, young men, old women, young women.

I also am not a man myself.

There is a better name for Chivalry that fits well in equal society. Politeness and manners.

I was about to say the same thing, I don't hold a door open because someone is a woman, I hold it open because it is the polite thing to do, no matter what gender, looks, etc.

To me chivalry is just an excuse for someone to try and make contact with the opposite sex or to try and impress them by being courteous with the hopes of gaining something out of it.

People will argue up and down there is no ulterior motive but watch how many people would be "chivalrous" towards a super model then they would toward someone that societal pressure and standards deems less attractive.

 

[Vault101]

it's definately dead. all boys care about is sex, which turns women into sluts with low self esteem. I feel like the only gentleman in a sea of animals. and as for feminists who don't want the door held for them, I say they should accept gender difference, rather than trying to claim that men and women are EXACTLY the same. they're not. get over it.

?....(assuming your not joking)

you dont sound like a gentleman you sound like a mysoganist from the 1950's (just telling what I see)

Im not offended by being treated special because Im female (I find it flattering) but my point is you guys dotn NEED to treat us special because we are women, the Idea is that you treat EVERYONE with a basic level of respect regardless of gender..thats equality

oh....and no I will NOT accept the stupid outdated Ideals:

Women need a man to protect them
Women's purpose in life is have children
a Woman's place is in the kitchen

I WILL accept

Men are physically stronger and more athletic than women...whcih is reflected in Work requiring physical strength



I mean honestly some men....complain that we expect/ and are treated special, then act all offended when we reject being treated special

 

[Bobbovski]

I sure hope it's dead... and that it's been replaced with politeness/helpfulness towards everyone instead.

 

[Deadyawn]

I was going to complain about this a bit but it seems the majority of the escapist has my back on this one. Equality is not up for interpretation. It is a definitive term and you can't bend it one way or the other. When it all comes down to it men and women aren't that different and we should be treated as such. Considerations should be taken into account for the small things in their own contexts but apart from that there should not be any distinctions.