Is chivalry dead?

[Nickolai77]

Someone linked their blog to this thread and i found this useful little picture:

Let's go through it shall we?

On Fair Play: I am amused how torture is something you should "avoid", but you should never attack someone from behind. I've never understood the concept of "fair play" in fighting. When committing to violence, the two things that matter is the defeat of your opponent and your own survival, not if the violence is fair or not. If someone was trying to kill me, i would use every dirty trick in the book to ensure my own survival, it's just not something you compromise on.

Nobility: Some good, some bad. For one, administering justice? Going vigalantie would today contradict "obey the law". And of course, not all laws are just, so i wouldn't obey them. Protect the innocent is however a good one, but i'm not sure about respect for authority. Yes, people as individuals deserve a base-line of respect, but authority should be readily questioned if you think it's wrong. And as for respecting women, shouldn't you approach anyone, regardless of sex, with a certain amount of respect anyway?

Valor: I find avenging the wrong a little ambiguous. Does this mean going vigilante again? Fighting with honour is also ambiguous, plus as already said as far as i am concerned you fight for survival. Still, agree with some other points like being loyal to allies, friends and causes and promoting courage.

Honour: I would as a principle keep my word, but in the interests of survival then it is permissible to lie. Same goes for deception, but i agree with most of the other points there. This includes respect for life...albeit my respect for life does not extend to wasps and spiders, i hate the bloody creatures and will kill them without a second thought.

Courtesy: How about, as a general principle which may be over-written in certain cases, be polite to one another, regardless of station or gender?

Loyalty: Eh, i'm an atheist, being loyal to non-existant entities sounds fun. As for sovereign and country, only if i agree with my countries political policies. As for the code of chivalry? Well see above.

Finally, i'm not trying to be funny here and nor am i taking this thing seriously...i'm just being...critical of something that does not deserve serious criticism...if you get what i mean.

Anyone in favour of re-writing the code of chivalry into something more modern and relevant?

 

[Uskis]

How is that a considerable misunderstanding? The idea that the proper man is someone who acts gentle to women because of their fragile nature and need to be serviced I would say is a stereotype. Chivalry is not the same as politeness which goes all ways, but a gender-exclusive concept enforcing a stereotypical notion of "true" masculinity.

I don't mind if you and your partner enjoys this, by all means knock yourself out. I just hate it when people who lament the "loss of chivalry", as if it is some sort of universal good thing in society.

Where you err is in your notion that chivalry is rooted in a condescending view of the fairer sex, and that it is in effect some manner of pervasive brainworm which in itself disallows an essentially equitable exchange amongst genders.

But it's not just at you I direct this, rather I detect throughout the thread a meme equating chivalrous conduct with a unambiguously Victorian world view.

Using terms such as "the fairer sex" is what I mean with reducing someone to their gender and attributing them characteristics. It's not necessarily condescending in the "get back to the kitchen" type of old-school misogyny, but it's an articulation of gender in a way that limits the way we perceive gender. The truly pervasive brain-worm is gender as a rigid dichotomy that carries certain characteristics. I'm not yelling at you in any way I'm just so tired of the idea that gender should carry a certain behavior.

I supposed you don't mean it the other way when you talk about chivalry right? Or does it go both ways? Would you like a women to take out your chair as a gesture of affection?.

 

[Tonimata]

I think that as long as I live, it won't

 

[The Gnome King]

In the modern times we live in many people believe that chivalry and equal rights can't go hand in hand. But chivalry is the small things you do, such as hold a door open for a women or pull the chair out for them or wait for them to sit before sitting yourself. And I'm here to ask the Escapist, can equal rights between genders and chivalric values be maintained together? Or is it one or the other in an absolute sense?
And why?
I believe that they can be current in today's society, women can still have the same or even more rights then men in many situations, but does that mean we have to stop treating them how most of them deserve to be treated? Is it too much to show some respect to the female gender?

I'm more inclined to hold the door open for an elderly man with a cane than a healthy, young woman. I think a lot of it has to do with anger at reproductive rights in this country.

Most men I know support the right of a woman to have an abortion but a large portion of them also feel that they should have the right to a "legal abortion" of their unwanted children.

I *have* known women - an ex girlfriend of mine actually - who had an abortion with nary a second thought. She was 16 and happy to get one. Many other women don't have "lifetimes of regret" like some feminists claim, either. See this one example:

http://www.thanksabortion.com/abortion-did-change-me-and-it-changed-me-for-the-better/

Now, a man who is forced to pay child support for 18 years has, I think, a greater burden than pregnancy or abortion. An abortion, from the ones I've driven female friends to, can be an outpatient procedure where they give you some Xanax, send you home, and you're at college or work again the next day.

For a man who is forced to pay child support for a child he didn't want to a woman he doesn't love - I've seen this as well. One of my former employees had a life basically ruined by having a child with a woman, they were both 17, she found a judge that basically took EVERY parental right away from him - he couldn't even see his daughter - and yet still required that he pay the mother child support. He'll be paying for that for 18 years and with none of the joy that normally comes with parenting.

I think rectifying the reproductive monopoly women have on childbearing and abortion would go a long way to restore some of this "lost chivalry" - not to mention that more women than men go to college now, meaning our next generation in the workforce will probably consist of better educated, better paid women and men who are worse off.

Add this to women pushing for the "right" to full front-line combat duties in the military - they want to be treated *exactly* like men - and one has to wonder... why *would* you be chivalrous when it was originally a way for the "stronger sex" to show respect and deference to the "weaker sex" - and now with the equal rights movement, women are no longer seen as weaker.

So why shouldn't that young woman hold open the door for the doddering old man with the cane?

(Personal aside - I believe in being chivalrous to everyone, male or female, and I'll hold the door open for a guy carrying, say, a huge stack of grocery bags trying to enter his flat just as soon as I would do it for a woman. It's called being kind to all humans, and respecting them all equally - male or female.)

 

[Mr Somewhere]

Chivalry never really existed outside of courtly romance fiction. Most knights, or men of the sword, or what have you never really followed the code. Same can be said for Bushido. So no it isn't dead, it never really lived.

 

[Shadowtek]

Thanks to feminism, yea, its dead. You never know if your going to get b*tched at just for being nice just because "they can do that"

 

[ZtH]

I try to hold the door for everyone and be polite. I really hate it when woman assume you only do it for them and take issue with it. To be frank and offensive "***** it's not always about you." It makes me want to slam the door on their face when they do that.

On the other hand most people get that you're holding the door for everyone not just their particular social group and any time someone says thank you it makes me smile. Being polite to everyone improves most relations.

 

[IndianaJonny]

Chivalry is; etiquette however, isn't.

 

[Gamblerjoe]

Chivalry only wishes it was dead. It wanders the earth a ghastly undead abomination with its insatiable cravings reducing it to more and more of a psychotic mess.

edit: after reading some posts, I feel bad for the people who have actually gotten negative responses. the worst Iv seen is a guy got laughed at by a girl for bringing her flowers; and in all fairness, thats what you get for thinking that approach will work on a girl who works at McDonalds and does oxycontin as her main hobby.

I live in Maine, where a lot the daily bullshit people have to deal with just doesnt exist. If you go to the right areas, you might find some unhinged rednecks, but its nothing like what you might find in say the Georgia mountains, or the Florida swamps. As far as chivalry though, It doesnt work to impress girls (except that tiny niche group) but it still gets a polite reception. On average the intelligence level, empathy level, and neighborly attitude vastly exceeds the national average. Doing something nice or polite with usually be received with a smile or more likely a verbal thanks.

I have actually found that girls will claim to like these gestures. I suppose thats not a lie per se, but thats not the same as attracting them. They like to feel special, but they will later make fun of the guys who where stupid enough to think that this would attract them.

You want to know what chivalry has been replaced with? Coolness. That "it" factor. That thing you cant define, but know when you see it. I know that doesnt help, but what do you expect from a fellow forum dwelling geek. Most of the time its large amounts of confidence with a sprinkle of making them laugh, but all in all you have to pique their interest. Compare it to a video game. Attractive box art is nice, but its not as important as the hype (getting her friends to like you) and the hook (what makes you different from all of the other swinging Johnsons hitting hon her). If the hook gets a bite, and even if things are going perfectly, it just takes a little bit of lag, or a bad cut scene, or too many loading screens, or bad camera controls to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

I hope this gives some people food for thought. Im sure its just a bunch of noise.

 

[Rotting Corpse]

I believe that they can be current in today's society, women can still have the same or even more rights then men in many situations, but does that mean we have to stop treating them how most of them deserve to be treated? Is it too much to show some respect to the female gender?

No it isn't, if you can give me a reason as to why I should show women more respect than I show men. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that women should be treated worse or that women are somehow inferior, but I don't see why I should be holding doors open and pulling out chairs. When women were nothing more than care takers of both house and children this kind of thing made sense, because the sexes weren't considered equal by society. But we're all people and having a vagina no longer automatically means you deserve more respect than the other half of the population.

Being a single male college student that's the angle I'm looking at this from. Doing little things like that for someone you've been married to for years is a completely different story. When you go on a date with a women at least one of your biggest goals is to have sex. Any man that denies this is lying to himself or is asexual. Doing things that would be considered chivalrous is not going to help you achieve this goal. In my experience most women who see a guy they're dating doing these kinds of things will just think that he's trying too hard.

 

[Johnnyallstar]

Not in me. I always am chivalrous, even though a lot of women don't appreciate it as much as they should.

I always attempt to be a gentleman first, but it's a losing game.

As much as they should? I think the person experiencing this gesture they didn't ask for would be the perfect judge of how much they should appreciate it, not the person doing it. =/

I'm not afraid to let a guy know what he's doing something wrong and using some physical force to help enunciate the point. I'd never do that to a woman, so there is a stated difference on how I treat them. I treat women much softer, and better than men, and that difference should be at least noted, if not appreciated.

I mean, I'd never grab a womans throat and demand my friend's wallet back, but I've done it multiple times to guys (with success, I might add)

 

[pulse2]

Chivalry is basic manners, but with women so independant these days, it's needed less and less, you might be extra polite to a female you happen to be dating or one you see struggling, but you don't go around being polite and wonderful to all females and disregard the fellow man or older people, that doesn't make sense.

Like someone said, common decency, if you were brought up right and learnt to respect others the way you wish to be respected yourself, it's only right you are treated as such.

If chivalry was constantly aimed at females, it would seem a little rude for it to be okay for a female to let the drop swing in my face, not give up her seat when I get older or have a young child with me or other simple things like that, female or male, politeness and respect goes both ways.

 

[hailfire]

Thanks to feminism, yea, its dead. You never know if your going to get b*tched at just for being nice just because "they can do that"

thank you! I hate it when I'm trying to be a gentleman and I get a bitchy response from a feminist, who apparently doesn't want to be treated well. ok then, next time I guess I'll let that door slam in your face like a compleat asshole, because apparently those are the kind of people you would rather be around.

 

[PettingZOOPONY]

In the modern times we live in many people believe that chivalry and equal rights can't go hand in hand. But chivalry is the small things you do, such as hold a door open for a women or pull the chair out for a women or wait for a women to sit before sitting yourself.
...
I believe that they can be current in today's society, women can still have the same or even more rights then men in many situations, but does that mean we have to stop treating them how most of women deserve to be treated? [/b]Is it too much to show some respect to the female gender?[/b]

I just highlighted all the sexist parts in your post that mysteriously you missed, when you whined about women being treated like men a.k.a like an equal person.
I think it is incredible disturbing to see someone in the year 2011 crawling up womens asses that much, as expressed here in your post:

women can still have even more rights then men

Well women have been up our asses since time began, now they can feel the sting of bullshit.

 

[Altorin]

chivalry is an anachronism. Why would we want to keep such a thing as an actual THING in our modern world? Chivalry (at least in regards to women, which is really its only meaning these days) stems from the idea that women are worth less then men, and chivalry is supposed to make things easier on the weak women you have regular contact with, if you're a good guy.

We know that's a whole lot of hokum these days. Women are just as strong as men in many ways. They don't need to be treated like fragile dolls. So the idea of Chivalry is based on something that just isn't true, and in today's society should actually be INSULTING to women, rather then complimentary. If you hold a door open for a woman, in a chivalrous society it says "You are not strong enough to open this door" or "You needn't strain yourself against this door, I will open it for you." How is that not insulting? A woman can open a door.

Now, if you want to open a door for a person out of common courtesy - you're opening the door anyway, why does it need to be closed and opened between each person? that's just silly. Go right ahead. I do it. I do a lot of things that would appear "chivalrous", but I don't do it out of Chivalry, I do it to be a good person, help everyone out. Sure, on a date, a little of this chivalrous action might help win you some points with your woman, but don't put too much thought into it. It really is an anachronistic mindset that needs to go away.

 

[RamirezDoEverything]

Yes, women killed it, see this for answers.

Wow. First post beat me to it.

 

[Canid117]

It was never really alive.