Is Fighting Dead

[elvor0]

that was painful to read, but no. And yes of course the idea is to win, the idea has always been to win, I will agree yes you should play for fun, but a fighting game has a binary outcome (well except for draws, but how often to they pop up?), 1 person is knocked out while the other is victorious.

To say fighting games are dead is just a obliviousness of the massive resurgence in popularity in fighting games, such as Marvel v Capcom 3, SF4, Blazblue and tekken 6/the new mortal kombat to a lesser extent. If it was just people spamming, no one would play them.

Constantly losing is not fun, yes you can analyse why you lost and use it to become better, but constantly losing is NOT fun. Consistently winning is fun, and it's obviously fun for the people doing so, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Not everyone shares the same idea as you as to what fun is.

Have we an online society that discourages loosing? Have we created an online society that encourages only winning? That loosing is a bad thing. You can learn a lot from your wins, but you can learn even more from your mistakes as well.

Encouraging winning is hardly a bad thing, and it should be something you should feel like in real life, while they are games and designed for fun, winning is always better than losing, which is something you should strive for.

Also, the general idea is that you learn how to play and counter opponents, don't give me "we never had to do that in the old days!", because its irrelevant as you were only playing with your mates, not everyone all over the world where there are all sorts of different play styles, which you just have to learn how to deal with and counter.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I've never liked fighting games because you spend more time learning how to play than actually playing and the usually very long wall of moves with 5-20 button combinations needed to learn how to play each and every character.

Also take into account the personality of the people I've met who like fighting games. I'm not saying that this is everyone, just the people that I ran into. They were usually very childish and annoying. You're obviously new to the genre, the game looks fun so you want to give it a try even though you don't know jack about what your doing and the first thing they do is beat you into the corner, not letting you move, apparently beating you down just to fill their ego. Yes, congratulations, you beat someone who's never played the game before.

Even if I liked fighting games, I probably eventually wouldn't like fighting other people if I ran into enough people who acted like this. So from my pov this genre has never had any 'honor'. People just like to pretend it does.

You're playing the game even when learning. Acquiring knowledge is FUN. Why can't you have fun learning something exactly?


As for those types, yeah, they're bad, every community has them, they're not that good though so you shouldn't worry, they get theirs much more than you got yours .

 

[Alluos]

When a player never has to change their tactics to suit the situation, it just becomes a game of rinse & repeat.

I don't think it's a problem with players, the developers should have to account for people using cheap tactics like that, because they CAN and WILL.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

When a player never has to change their tactics to suit the situation, it just becomes a game of rinse & repeat.

I don't think it's a problem with players, the developers should have to account for people using cheap tactics like that, because they CAN and WILL.

That or the other player simply isn't using the method for punishing that repeated action the makers DID put in the game for that exact reason.

 

[katsabas]

How much time do you think you'll be spending on it though?

300 challenges, King Of The Hill, Krypt, Story Mode, Tag Team Matches. Yeah, I will be saying quite some time.

Most serious fighter players spend hundreds if not thousands of hours at their respective games so if we judge a $60 game with 20 or less hours of gameplay as one's "money's worth" they are getting many many many times more worth out of their money than you or any other genre-player.

Oh really? I have sunk more than 300 hours in Burnout 3. Which came out in 2004. It only cost 30 euros. Fallout 3 GOTY. About 250 hours. 60 euros. Unless by serious fighters you mean the ones that actually play nothing but these. Then yeah, you are in a different league entirely. The hours someone spends practicing are not by any means, a sign of professionalism. One can sink 200 hours in SFIV and still suck.

(In all seriousness, the ones that get their money's worth more than anyone are RPG players. For obvious reasons.)

Money's worth is not achieved only through the number of hours one manages to squeeze into the training room. It is achieved by variety. Street Fighter IV needed 3 versions to get that. MK needed just one (this far).

Online has lag and thus is imperfect, the mere fact that you think online tournaments are comparable to offline live matches just shows the difference between other genres and fighters. In fighters where single frames matter (a frame is a sixtieth of a second) you can't have any respectable tournament online.

The Burnout Paradise example was not to refer to the possible tournaments but to the fact that high level competition can be found in any genre. There are Pro Evolution Soccer tournaments with teams of two vs two. You have to have no lag and being able to coop at the same time. You think fighting is the only genre where one despises slowdowns?

It's a childish depiction of violence and gore, together with all the squishy sounds and blood you'd find at a country fare horror house.

It's funny. Some of my friends are doctors that study corpses. And these 'squishy sounds and blood' you refer to are actually there.

About the depiction of violence, it is a game. Of course the depiction is non-realistic. If it were childish, the rating would be E. But it ain't.

SF has always been about a childish depiction of martial arts. Since when does chi materialize into hadokens and sonic booms? Did either game's wrong depictions of concepts stopped them from being one of the best in their genres? No.

Depictions of anything in a game that is not a simulator are flawed. Be that a fighter or not.

As for scarring, dunno about that, I played Silent Hill when I was 10 and I was fine with it...

Depends wholly on the person. Not everyone played survival horror before they hit 15. Maybe your folks didn't pay attention to what you were playing. Mine did. And even if I did have a kid, I wouldn't allow it to play Mortal Kombat. Unless it wanted to study anatomy...

 

[lukeyk]

Hmmm, not everyone does just spam the same move though there are people that do combo. For example a good friend of mine, whom is seemingly a god of MK, was playing online and I was watching. My friend was playing as sektor and the opponent was... Kitana or someone like that cant really remember who it was. However what I do clearly remember is that as soon as it started the opponent did start spamming a projectile attack. So my friend proceeded to teleport close to them and start beating the shit out of them with a huge combo attack that hit them 15 times or so dealing around 40% Damage. The player proceeded to get up and started spamming projectiles again, so my friend just blocked and avoided them until time ran out.

So simply there is a way to counter the projectiles and combo from them. you just gotta learn them D:

 

[Dfskelleton]

It's simple: 94% of people online in fighting games are morons who don't care about enjoying the actual game and having fun, and instead just want to use the quickets tactics to win. However, this is Mortal Kombat, and while MK9 is a lot more balanced that some previous MK titles, a few characters are still a bit overpowered, and Noobs (who, ironically, usually pick Noob, despite how cool he is) will exploit this because they're afraid to lose. Then again, Mortal Kombat did invent fatalities, which are basically designed to rub in your victory as much as possible in an extremely violent manner, and that's part of what has always made MK popular (or hated, depending on your oppinion of the game.)
If you string together multiple combos, throws, and special moves, you can cause some serious damage. I made up one with Scorpion in which you do a teleport punch, a spear move, a small 3 hit combo followed by another spear move, using Scorpion's flame move immediately and finally followed by a forwards throw.
My suggestion: only play with friends you know. They're hopefully a bit more fair than idiots online.
Hopefully as well they'll pick someone besides Noob Saibot.
Slightly off subject: Just to throw in my oppinion, I actually like Mortal Kombat better than Street Fighter. Street Fighter is awesome, but something about Mortal Kombat appeals to me, I just can't figure out what it is.
Flame shield has been activated.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Oh really? I have sunk more than 300 hours in Burnout 3. Which came out in 2004. It only cost 30 euros. Fallout 3 GOTY. About 250 hours. 60 euros. Unless by serious fighters you mean the ones that actually play nothing but these. Then yeah, you are in a different league entirely. The hours someone spends practicing are not by any means, a sign of professionalism. One can sink 200 hours in SFIV and still suck.

(In all seriousness, the ones that get their money's worth more than anyone are RPG players. For obvious reasons.)

Money's worth is not achieved only through the number of hours one manages to squeeze into the training room. It is achieved by variety. Street Fighter IV needed 3 versions to get that. MK needed just one (this far).

I'm actually an RPG player mainly...and I'll have you know my playtime in fighters rivals if not outright surpasses that of my RPG.

As for money's worth, variety or not it's all about the experience. You may have more fun with less variety if the battle system is especially deep.

It's funny. Some of my friends are doctors that study corpses. And these 'squishy sounds and blood' you refer to are actually there.

About the depiction of violence, it is a game. Of course the depiction is non-realistic. If it were childish, the rating would be E. But it ain't.

SF has always been about a childish depiction of martial arts. Since when does chi materialize into hadokens and sonic booms? Did either game's wrong depictions of concepts stopped them from being one of the best in their genres? No.

Depictions of anything in a game that is not a simulator are flawed. Be that a fighter or not.

"Unrealistic" doesn't equal "childish". Hadoukens materialize the way they do by following anime tropes and mythical stories. They're a stylistic depiction stemming from religion, sort of like how our Angels have Halos over their heads. It's not the same thing. Not all unrealistic elements in games are created equal.

Depends wholly on the person. Not everyone played survival horror before they hit 15. Maybe your folks didn't pay attention to what you were playing. Mine did. And even if I did have a kid, I wouldn't allow it to play Mortal Kombat. Unless it wanted to study anatomy...

I actually played it together with my dad and my mom helped us on the riddles too...so yeah...way to generalize lol. Just because kids aren't taught the difference between fiction and reality before they're 15 where you are it doesn't mean that is the case for everyone.

 

[brunothepig]

If they're spamming the same move over and over again you should know how to counter it. If you can't the game wasn't well made.

I'm with this guy.
I haven't played Mortal Kombat, but move spammers don't annoy me because they're easily countered. You know what they're going to do. Smash Bros is a good example, my brother tried spamming almost every character, never got far with it.
If they aren't easily countered, and I don't know, maybe they aren't in MK, then the game is unbalanced, and I suggest you play a different one.

 

[mParadox]

Maxima is a favourite of mine on that team. Anyone who counts a right straight as a special move is alright by me. I like command throws so it was always going to happen.

I like K' for the fire. And that glove. o,o

And I think I should finally contribute to the discussion:

You can Tekken as an example. You can button mash your way to victory but there's a satisfaction in knowing all the combos and beating the opponent without getting hit once.

 

[ltbigjohn]

you really should read things aloud before you post them places, because i had a hard time reading this topic. you should really check out street fighter, i find that the community around the game, more often then not, mirrors what you are looking for in a fighting game. by which i mean people who are more serious about crafting their skill. the board leader in mortal kombat vs dc universe for the xbox 360 was a similar type of player this guy by the name dcninja with #'s after it... i think? anyway he would mostly play as superman and would spam this ground pound attack that couldn't be blocked or gotten out of. made it a real disappointment to fight him, however finally breaking it and getting to beat him around for a bit was very satisfying, to imagine the look on his face as his precious and fictitious winning streak slowly withered away under sonya blades crushing kicks. also check out arcades they are really fun and a great place to meet people with this same common goal in mind of perfecting their skills. finally the older versions of fighting game like street fighter 2 and 2 alpha and so on tend to still have some form of fanatic fan base which has, for the most part, long since banished mashing and spamming players to the newer games, these games do still have their gurus, if you can find them... and 50 cents... and an arcade.

 

[Iwata]

Is fighting dead?!

By no means. Marvel VS Capcom 3, SSFIV AE, MK, the new BlazBlue...

Fighting is alive and well. Maybe you just suck at it. I know I do! :3

 

[katsabas]

I'm actually an RPG player mainly...and I'll have you know my playtime in fighters rivals if not outright surpasses that of my RPG.

How does that work? An mainly RPG player that has more hours clocked into fighters than in actual RPGs?

As for money's worth, variety or not it's all about the experience. You may have more fun with less variety if the battle system is especially deep.

Then it looks like we have different standards.

"Unrealistic" doesn't equal "childish". Hadoukens materialize the way they do by following anime tropes and mythical stories. They're a stylistic depiction stemming from religion, sort of like how our Angels have Halos over their heads. It's not the same thing. Not all unrealistic elements in games are created equal.

I never said that one equals the other. What I was getting to is that games like SF or MVC are only as 'childlish' as MK is. One through violence and the other through outrageous chi blasts. I cannot help but find a hole in the logic you follow. Since when ripping off someone's spine or gutting them with a hooksword is considered childish? Especially considering how graphic MK is.

I actually played it together with my dad and my mom helped us on the riddles too...so yeah...way to generalize lol. Just because kids aren't taught the difference between fiction and reality before they're 15 where you are it doesn't mean that is the case for everyone.

The 'not everyone' part was to avoid just that. Generalizing. And even if I one knows the difference between fiction and reality, that doesn't mean that the first thing he will do is go watch something about a guy lost in a town full of monsters, looking for his dead wife.

 

[sabercrusader]

So if someone walks up to you and forces their thumbs into your eyes, are you going to lecture them about touching gloves or bowing before starting anything?

Edit: Gentlemen rules are for friends, the dojo and tv, survival is top priority in the real world.

But I'm not talking about that. This thread wasn't about that.

This thread was about how when the bell rings to fight, let's take for example Reptile. For a second.

The game says fight, they throw an acid ball immediatedly at me.

Now I can dodge this acid ball, maybe I jump to dodge it, but they throw a new one while I land, I can duck but they throw another one lower or maybe the one they threw catches me.

I can block it with my block. But now I'm stuck with to much distance and they can throw acid at me and chunk my health even while blocking.

Trying to get in close they hit with an acid ball and now I am on the grand as the character gets up, they throw another and another and another and another. The character can't really finish his animation of getting or even get up because the very moment they stir up acid is being thrown.

There is a difference between fighting and throwing fireballs.

Mind you this is an example, before I learned a counter.

So... where's the disrespect? If they're keeping you at a distance, it sounds like they're doing well enough and you're not happy about it.

Argue this with most any somewhat serious people and they'll tell you it's called zoning. Unless the character can negate projectiles and rush at you (Jade - UMK3), they're doing something right. Because not only are they chipping your health, they're running down the clock which will cause you to do something risky and if they're on top of it, you'll get punished. It's a legitimate tactic, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's disrespectful/dishonorable. Get off your high horse and either find people who want to share the stick up your ass or don't play.

Zoning? I call it cheap tactics, they are doing this just to win at the expense of your fun, ya know, the thing that games were orginally made for other than story. Standing back and spamming one or two projectiles isn't skillful and while it may be a legitamite tactic, dosen't make it any less annoying. Doing it occasionally isn't bad and I admit that I do it sometimes, not a whole match though. It's not fun to play a game where you can't even land a single blow becuase thay are spamming a move at you constantly, if they are better than me, but we actually have a fight where I can fight back, then I will still have fun, even if I lose, winning isn't the main thing for me, having fun is.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

How does that work? An mainly RPG player that has more hours clocked into fighters than in actual RPGs?

I only really play one fighting game, I just focus my energy on it to be really good. Rpgs I play a ton of. The average rpg has about 80-120 hours in it, I don't ever replay story-heavy games so once I'm done with one I get into the next. I put more time in fighting games cause stories need you to be in a certain mood to experience them thus I can't say I always feel like playing an rpg (and I never play more than 1 rpg simultaneously thus I do have an idea of the type of story I'll be getting and how I feel about that at the moment) but fighting games are a different experience which doesn't demand you to be in a certain mood in order to enjoy to the fullest. At the same time, I enjoy those story moments more and I have much more overall experience with those rpgs, thus I consider myself an rpg player. Fighters obviously are a close second though.

I never said that one equals the other. What I was getting to is that games like SF or MVC are only as 'childlish' as MK is. One through violence and the other through outrageous chi blasts. I cannot help but find a hole in the logic you follow. Since when ripping off someone's spine or gutting them with a hooksword is considered childish? Especially considering how graphic MK is.

I seem to be repeating what you just said but it seems we have different standards as to what is outrageous and what is childish. For someone like me who grew up with the original dragon ball, hadouken is a rather reserved and quite pitiful chi blast compared to what is out there. I don't get a feeling of "wow, that's so crazy and out there!" when I see it, I get a feeling of retro and "hah, look at how weak Ryu is...the ground under his hadouken isn't even melting !".

All that gore a child's depiction at "awesome" stuff. I don't make it up, they themselves know they're doing immature pandering with it. It's like that misconception that maturity equals sex and violence and a ton of swearing that lingers in too many games nowadays...that maturity is only skin deep and indeed childish.

The 'not everyone' part was to avoid just that. Generalizing. And even if I one knows the difference between fiction and reality, that doesn't mean that the first thing he will do is go watch something about a guy lost in a town full of monsters, looking for his dead wife.

Certainly, but if he does watch that he won't be damaged by it, which is the whole point. We shouldn't make our kids just avoid danger since some dangers can't be avoided, it's better to just enable them to outright not be affected by it.

Oh and in Silent Hill 1 the main character is looking for his daughter .

 

[tunderball]

Well the game has only just come out so it kind of makes sense that not everybody will have mastered it to the same level as you. Besides the whole online gaming culture revolves round winning games so it makes sense that most people will use whatever cheap tactics they can.
Maybe you should try another game that it better balanced and the only people left playing it online are masters?
And honour doesn't exist in online games I suggest you realise that soon.

 

[Harley Duke]

Hate to break it to you, friend, but your problem started when you tried to play Mortal Kombat. If you're looking for combos, strategy, cross-ups, good placement, floor control, etc., you should pick up something like Street Fighter or Marvel vs. Capcom. Mortal Kombat is really shooting for the whole "ha ha they bleed all over the place, wow I just rammed knives through that guy's skull in slow-motion X-ray vision" kind of thing.

 

[katsabas]

I only really play one fighting game, I just focus my energy on it to be really good. Rpgs I play a ton of. The average rpg has about 80-120 hours in it, I don't ever replay story-heavy games so once I'm done with one I get into the next. I put more time in fighting games cause stories need you to be in a certain mood to experience them thus I can't say I always feel like playing an rpg (and I never play more than 1 rpg simultaneously thus I do have an idea of the type of story I'll be getting and how I feel about that at the moment) but fighting games are a different experience which doesn't demand you to be in a certain mood in order to enjoy to the fullest. At the same time, I enjoy those story moments more and I have much more overall experience with those rpgs, thus I consider myself an rpg player. Fighters obviously are a close second though.

Again, different standards. ME2 is really story heavy and I am on my 3rd playthrough. And I am always in the mood for a good story. In order to practice at SF, I need to be mentally ready to get my fingers fucked to death.

I seem to be repeating what you just said but it seems we have different standards as to what is outrageous and what is childish. For someone like me who grew up with the original dragon ball, hadouken is a rather reserved and quite pitiful chi blast compared to what is out there. I don't get a feeling of "wow, that's so crazy and out there!" when I see it, I get a feeling of retro and "hah, look at how weak Ryu is...the ground under his hadouken isn't even melting !".

All that gore a child's depiction at "awesome" stuff. I don't make it up, they themselves know they're doing immature pandering with it. It's like that misconception that maturity equals sex and violence and a ton of swearing that lingers in too many games nowadays...that maturity is only skin deep and indeed childish.

I wouldn't know about that. What I found awesome when I was 10 was (and still is) Spider-Man and not someone losing his head. And all that while I grew up with Dragonball as well. But I dropped it after Goku's brother showed up. Got tired of it.

Certainly, but if he does watch that he won't be damaged by it, which is the whole point. We shouldn't make our kids just avoid danger since some dangers can't be avoided, it's better to just enable them to outright not be affected by it. Oh and in Silent Hill 1 the main character is looking for his daughter .

Hah, yeah I know. I was referring to the second one. I didn't mean we should shield our kids from violence in VGs cause nowadays, VGs are modern day fairy tales. What I meant is that you have to know when to let your kid see this kind of stuff. Timing is important.

 

[Manji187]

Hmm...how would an "honorable" fighting game play like? If I were to design one I would...

-NOT include any projectile moves
-NOT include any teleportation moves
-NOT include any unblockable moves
-include an optional "stun" setting (which can be switched off). I'm talking Street Fighter style stun.
-include an optional penalty system like in the Guilty Gear franchise (if you turtle too much...you lose your super bar) with different settings...like the "anti spam" setting (use a move too often in rapid succesion and any hit you subsequently take gives you slightly more damage)
-include an optional "ring-out" (i.e. walled stage or open stage).
-restrict the juggling...don't expect to pull off more than 3 hits.
-include optional invincibility frames on wake up.

I would basically make a highly customizable fighting game so anyone can set up a "clean good fight".

Or...take Virtua Fighter 5 and add a lot of options.

But then again....VF5 isn't exactly "accessible". It takes dedication...something that button mashers do not consider fun.

 

[NitehawkFury]

Look, it's been said, it's been biased, it's been lambasted, but the heart of the matter is that online gaming, or even gaming in general, is a cutthroat competition. Everybody's looking to win, no matter what, and most don't care about just whomping you over and over again.

Mortal Kombat, (or really any fighter), isn't done justice the way it would have been done back in the arcades of decades past. I remember playing MK3 for hours in the arcades as a teenager, as well as Street Fighter. Eventually I moved on to Tekken because it "felt right" to me.

But playing in the arcades, I understand what you're talking about. Sometimes you'd come up against a player who would spam certain attacks, just because they saw that it would usually get them the win.

While at first, you'd get slammed by it, with some dedication, there was always a counter. There was always a way to work through it. And it's supremely satisfying to just destroy a "cheap" player, especially as they panic with you completely negating their little tricks and tearing them apart.

In online play, we've lost some of that personal experience of having a throwdown with someone who's standing right next to you. We hide behind our faceless usernames and scream at our opponents through our microphones, free to be douchebags from the safety of our living rooms.

That's just the way it is now. So the best way to get back at them? Just learn how to counter their tactics. If Saibot's giving you trouble, find an appropriate counter. There's always a way to win. It just may mean altering your playstyle a little. Doing so will not only help you to win that match, but it will help you become a more well-rounded player overall, and help you too see how to approach future challenges with a more experienced perspective.