If by "community" you mean the gamer consumer market as a whole. Then yes. The Escapist is kind of wrapped up in how the consumer market is responding to Nintendo's recent product.Dragonbums said:
Is Nintendo becoming irrelevant?
- Thread starter VG_Addict
- Start date
Recommended Videos
When you're looking at the kid's market, it's not actually the kids who buy the games, it's the parents - that the kid is asking for something is still providing pressure to buy, but is there enough of a marketing push to convince the parent to actually hand over the cash?Dragonbums said:
I don't know the answer (I haven't seen any statistics that point to a definite trend one way or the other), but personally I do have a number of friends who are doing things like giving their kid their old phone or letting them use the family tablet in place of buying a dedicated handheld. That's not enough to prove that there's a trend of course, but those people are certainly out there and the ultimate question will be what percentage of the potential market they represent.
Yes?Raikas said:
Minecraft costs $20.00 a good amount of parents are okay with such a price. Especially for a sandbox game like Minecraft.
And most parents are more than willing to buy devices like a 3DS during the holiday season.
No.Lightknight said:
They view the general opinion of how Escapist users view the product, then basically say that's how it's gonna work.
A lot of users on the Escapist play games predominately on their I pad. They see no use for the 3DS, then make claims that the 3DS is being killed by smartphones despite the fact that the handheld is doing just as well as it's predecessor.
Then they say that kids like Angry Birds, and that somehow means that they aren't going to buy any other games except Angry Birds because apparently kids are like slot machines where they only care about one game and that is it until they grow up.
Nintendo will never die. Because Nintendo keep rehashing all of their would-be lifeless franchises (how many times can you tell, "Italian guy saves chick from lizard thing with implied intentions to molest her") and they just won't let their games die.
Even the Mario RPG games are coming to a halt, and Paper Mario isn't even and RPG anymore.
Until they start actually writing something new nothing will change. Not until something as good as Paper Mario 2 or Majora's Mask.
Even the Mario RPG games are coming to a halt, and Paper Mario isn't even and RPG anymore.
Until they start actually writing something new nothing will change. Not until something as good as Paper Mario 2 or Majora's Mask.
Yes to which question?Dragonbums said:
Are lots of people willing to buy Minecraft? Yeah, I totally believe that - virtually all my friends and coworkers who have kids (aside from a couple who are on the no games/no tv bench) have kids who play it. However not all of those people have bought handhelds for their kids - even the ones who own older handhelds of their own. Again, I don't know what the overall trends are, but I don't for a minute believe that people are equally willing to buy a $20 game that can be played on a a piece of hardware that they already own versus a $160+ dedicated handheld.
I don't think you can honestly claim that "most" parents are willing to buy something like a 3DS in a general way - that's something that I'm certain is going to vary a lot depending on things like location and income and age (of the parents, but also of their children).
You yourself just said that most of the parents who didn't buy their kids a 3DS already have a 3DS themselves. That make sense. Why would you buy two of the same handhelds when you can just easily give it to your kid for use?Raikas said:
Again, you also ignore the holiday season where kids get such devices as gifts, and they get enough money from relatives and friends to buy the system themselves and/or additional games for them.
I don't know why you got such an alien concept that a parent is willing to shell out $300+ dollars for an Iphone or a blasted I pad, but they aren't willing to shell out $130-300 dollars on the three choices of 3DS models.
I don't even know why people are willing to bet that parents are going to buy their kids the PS4 and/or Xbox One, but are not willing to buy their kids a handheld much cheaper than that.
Where is the sense in that?
The amount of people who went out of their way just to get Animal Crossing: New Leaf was insane. That franchise isn't even really their flagship title.
I already know 3DS/2DS hardware are going to fly off shelves when Pokemon X and Y hits stores all around the globe.
Does all of this depend on income and age? Well of course.
However Nintendo is far from losing the child demographics to a single game called Minecraft and Angry Birds.
No, I said that some parents who already own an older handheld (a DS, a PSP, still own their old GameBoy) haven't bought a 3DS.Dragonbums said:
I'm not ignoring that, that shows up when the sales figures jump seasonably. I didn't mention it because it's true of virtually every consumer product - the sales of any gift item is going to jump during the holidays - it's not unique to handhelds (or to consumer electronics).
I think you're conflating two points. For example: my brother-in-law has a 10-year-old son. When his son wanted something to play games on, he gave him his old phone. So he actually wasn't spending $300 on a new phone for his kid - he was upgrading his own phone and passing the old one along. Buying a handheld would have been more on top of that.
Similarly, my neighbours have two kids - a 7 year-old son and a 5-year-old daughter. The kids take turns playing Minecraft on the family tablet. Again, they didn't buy the tablet as a gaming device for the kids - they already use it for themselves, and to show the kids videos when they're in the car and so on. So again: there's the cost of the game, but there's no new item to purchase.
It comes down to the multi-purpose factor again. I know a fair number of people who bought a Wii both for the kids and for the adults to use the WiiFit, or who bought a PS3 both for gaming and for a blu-ray player, or who bought a 360 that the whole family uses.
If you're aware that there's variance in who purchases these things, then why argue that "most" people are happy to throw money at something?
Look, I'm not one of the people who thinks that Nintendo is going anywhere - to my mind they have a good grasp on their target markets and more importantly, they've targeted a couple of groups that are ignored by other consoles. But that said, I don't think you can talk about mobile gaming without acknowledging how non-gaming-specific devices have changed the market lately.
Hmm, I consider Nintendo's performance in the handheld market to be quite strong. Any comments I make towards Nintendo's fall from the forefront is strictly regarding the home console market. I'd say that any handheld is at risk of the iOS though. But the 3DS is a cheaper alternative to an iPad for kids and the content is curated for children. So it will remain relevant and even necessary unless you're a tech head like me who can tighten down iOS security faster than.. well.. some kind of fast tightener downer of some sort.Dragonbums said:
It's not throwing money at something if they see it is worth buying.Raikas said:
There are two conflicting opinions on this site in regards to the handhelds.
1. Most people would rather buy their kids smartphones and tablets (at the same or higher price point.)
2. Most will not buy their kids exclusive handhelds.
It's conflicting as hell.
What I'm trying to say is, the smartphone market will affect the 3DS.
However I don't see it as the handheld killer as most people are saying it is.
I'm not a tech head, so I don't know about the whole iOS security thing. All though it wouldn't surprise me if it was garbage.Lightknight said:
I just don't think that the iOS is going to kill handhelds.
It will just never really be as high as it used to. And at the rate the 3DS is going it will be just as popular as the original line.
It's like I said in an earlier post- consoles didn't die because PC's existed. They ended up co-existing with each other quite well. Because while more people have PC's- the a much smaller amount use it for gaming. Yet alone professional/high tech gaming.
Same thing with tablets and smartphones. Both of their primary objectives are being phones, and simplifying common computer tasks. While a huge pool of those users play games on it- they are tiny like Angry Birds, and most folks would want more. Only a small portion (compared to the huge pool. This isn't to say they are miniscule) of people play those extensive iOS games. At the end of the day, both those markets will balance themselves out and manage to co exist with only small competition between them. It's basically the handhelds version of a PC in regards to gaming.
Dexter111 said:You people from the Nintendo defense force are so silly in your delusions, you don't know how funny it is.
Handheld console sales are falling continually and rapidly while phone use is rising and you won't see it.
"B...but Japan will save the day!"
I'm pretty sure you need a phone. Of course phone sales will always outmatch hand held sales. That is how it's been since the beginning of ever. You are treating it like phone users just came out of nowhere and are here to kill handhelds. Phones are a necessity. A smartphone is no different because it's a phone.
Like, this doesn't even make any blasted sense. What exactly does that prove?
Most people are going to have a phone than a handheld? Like...yes? Of course?
So you say handheld gaming is failing rapidly...and then link news about how videogames are a multi billion dollar industry...what are you debating here?
That's great. Explain again what your arguing here. videogames are falling? Or videogames are succeeding?
Where did I claim nobody was playing games on their phones? Did I not just admit to having Angry Birds on my own smartphone? Stop putting words in my mouth.
Yes. Console sales in general have been steadily declining in Japan. That is bad news for Sony and Microsoft as well. For some reason however you seem to think this only affects Nintendo.
Oh and also when Animal Crossing: New Leaf came out, Nintendo literally ran out of copies of the game http://www.destructoid.com/animal-crossing-sold-out-in-japan-chaos-likely-to-ensue-239618.phtml
They also saw a double increase in 3DS sales because those same people with smartphones were willing to shell out $250.00 for hardware just to get Animal Crossing http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/14/3645506/animal-crossing-boosts-3ds-sales-in-japan-while-vita-hits-record-low
Once again, it is completely obvious that more people are going to choose phones over handhelds. You need phones. You need them in emergencies. You need them to text. You need them to check your email. You need them to contact your friends/relatives/clients. To think that anyone thought that handhelds will outsell phones is ridiculous. Everyone has a phone. I have a phone, you have a phone, we all have a blasted phone. Not only that, more and more phones are starting to implement basic smartphone features like games because as the years go by it get's cheaper to do. Again, not something that is really going to affect the 3DS because most of those games are either garbage or light weight time wasters.
In regards to global spending: http://allthingsd.com/20130821/google-play-skates-into-second-place-in-mobile-gamer-spending-past-nintendo-and-sonys-handhelds/
Mobile gaming and handheld gaming are different markets with a bit of overlap. That overlap being that both devices can be held easily in your hands.
If the 3DS can sell 42 million and track closely behind it's predecessor due to success even with Google Play reaching second place in mobile gaming (something Sony and Nintendo aren't even really in.) then good for them. That hardly affects them.
No. The reason why Squeenix want to go all digital is because they spend too much fucking money into making their games, and expect CoD level of returns instead of making realistic sales predictions. Their last Tomb Raider game by all accounts sold beautifully yet despite that they said the game was a financial flop.
Why? Because they spent too much goddamn money on making the game that not even 5 million and sales can cover everything. However instead of seeing themselves as the problem they are simply blaming it on disk sales. Which is dumb as shit because most people know it has nothing to do with that. They just want to find another scapegoat.
Just like everyone said for the 3DS. Now it's selling. The Wii U is hurting from bad marketing. You say that no one asked for tablet functionality yet at the same time I see Sony and Microsoft bragging about how their consoles can connect to...wait for it...your tablets and smartphones. Yeah. Nobody asked for those either.
They seem to be doing just fine.
Nobody on the tablet business are willing to shell out $35.00 for a game. Plus buttons give way more precision than a touch screen.
,
I don't expect Sony to start licensing their handheld IP's to Nintendo. I'm not going to expect Nintendo to do the same.
This is the same song and dance of idiocy that rabid Nintendo doomers have been hoping for since the dawn of 1999. You would think they would get tired of this already.
Eh, personally I call all entertainment spending to be throwing money around - we don't need any of this stuff.Dragonbums said:
Those two ideas can be complimentary - they don't conflict at all. Personally I think anyone talking about what "most" people will do without having numbers to back it up are just making assumptions, but those two assumptions aren't at odds with each other.
That's not different from what I said (although I was commenting on the market for dedicated handheld gaming devices in general and not specifically about the 3DS). Talking about how smartphones and tablets have changed the nature of the handheld market is not the same as predicting the death of that market.
People need to get this into their heads:
A console's sales relative to it's competitors is NOT and indication of that console's success. Coming in a distant last place in the console wars does not mean you're in trouble or that your console is irrelevant. As long as you still made a profit and kept people aware of your brand it's okay to not be AS successful as someone else. This is especially true of Nintendo which isn't even directly competing with the other two console makers.
A console's sales relative to it's competitors is NOT and indication of that console's success. Coming in a distant last place in the console wars does not mean you're in trouble or that your console is irrelevant. As long as you still made a profit and kept people aware of your brand it's okay to not be AS successful as someone else. This is especially true of Nintendo which isn't even directly competing with the other two console makers.
Yeah. Those ideas definitely co exist. However just no in the context of "it's killing handheld gaming"Raikas said:
Sorry. I didn't mean to say you were talking about the 3DS exclusively. However considering how this is a Nintendo thread, and the only two handheld devices are the successful 3DS, and the struggling Vita I guess I just assumed that is what you are talking about.
Depends on the iOS you're using. But you can generally keep kids out of things if you know what you're doing. For example, I just set up a friend's home office that they're going to use for homeschooling their four kids (their school was doing very badly and was getting them involved in illicit drugs). I was able to filter out all websites that are not known kid-friendly sites right from the get-go. Then I was able to directly state specific school related sites for them to be able go to.Dragonbums said:
You can do pretty much all the same stuff on handheld devices, especially if they're windows 8 devices.
iOS game development is a relatively new thing. Right now you still have a bunch of ad-ridden crap that can't come close to the likes of Nintendo IPs. However, in-time, I would expect to see titles that are much more involved IPs being custom made for the iOS as long as the market is willing to pay more for premium titles (like I did for minecraft on my phone, for example). I expect the landscape of the iOS market to be drastically different in five years than it is now. Think about this, five years ago smart phone useage was only just arriving with the iPhone that blew the doors right open starting in 2007 but only sold 3.3 million units that year but reached nearly 12 million by the end of 2008. The first android OS to be used on a phone was 2008. Blackberries were around earlier but it was really Apple's app store that made them what we think of them today.
To give you perspective on how rapidly things changed since then, in 2009 the total combined market of App store revenue was $828 Million (Apple accounted for $769 million of that) and then in 2010 the revenue was $2,155 million. That's a 260% increase in one year.
I don't know how old you are. But if you're in your mid-20's at least then you'll even remember a childhood where cell phones weren't even common. Yes, the major players have emerged but there's still a lot that can happen.
Smartphones are not to handhelds as pc's are to consoles. There are some similarities but every smart phone is a console in that they have known components/qualities. What's more, mobile apps are currently downloaded or upgraded based on what type of phone you have. For example, I have a samsung Galaxy S. My wife has the newest one. We both enjoy Jetpack Joyride. A patch came out a few months back that added content to the game and altered the environment. However, the game is pretty different according to which of our phones we're playing on. The new one has additional areas and more animation, mine isn't nearly so much.
This is important because PC's all all Frankenstein's monsters. Cobbled together by various parts with no hardware standard. As such, consumers are just giving the requirements and expected to meet it themselves. It's easy to get a computer that lets you browse the internet, stream media, do word processing and file storage. It takes a lot of money or a lot of computer expertise to create a legitimate gaming rig. Even then, pc's aren't generally living room friendly and consoles are still considered excellent party machines, AAA gaming devices, and media machines at a relatively low cost. I mean, $400 bluray/gaming/media out of the box powerful machine that is gaurunteed to be compatible with games put out on it during its life span? That's great and something pcs just don't offer.
One major thing you're forgetting about cell phones is that they're no longer considered a luxury. More people own cell phone than own toilets. That's not even a made up number: 6 out of 7 billion people have a cell phone, but only 4.5 billion have access to a flushable toilet. [http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/03/23/more-people-have-mobile-phones-than-toilets/] This means that everyone is carrying one of these devices around and more than half of those in the US are smart phones (estimated to be 80% by 2016). As such, this is already a cost that people have incurred and iOS developers have standards to develop towards. Their apps are made for these various standards and roll out efficiently in a way pc developers can't or don't do.
This means that cell phones are handheld consoles too whereas a pc is not a console where consoles are defined as standard hardware configurations. Now that they're going into the gaming market, that's only going to increase as the market share grows larger and the capabilities of these devices improve. To ignore the danger of handheld devices overtaking gaming consoles would be a mistake for Nintendo to make. At least Sony made their device a capable media device that functions like a really small but powerful tablet.
I think Nintendo is a safer option for children. I think the curated kid-friendly environment they provide in a durable device that isn't the adult's precious phone has its own value. But we should all be concerned that their market share is certainly in danger. While "relevance" isn't the right word to use for this thread, "prominence" would be in a question regarding whether or not they losing it in droves. Their handheld market may not be bleeding out this generation, but we could see some drastic losses come the 4DS or whatever.
Nintendo is taking a significant hit per console and is selling FAR below their own estimates in both software and hardware. I don't think the idea of it failing is necessarily related to anyone else's performance except to show that they are failing in an otherwise robust market. We honestly don't know how the competitors are selling (ps4/XBO) except that the preorders of the consoles are already in the top 100 best sellers in 2013 whereas the WiiU isn't on the list. I mean, even the psp and vita are outselling the WiiU every month.OlasDAlmighty said:
Consider this. The WiiU is selling at a slower rate than the Dreamcast did (Dreamcast sold 10.6 million units in around 2 years depending on how you weigh the earlier Japan-only launch since it launched in Nov. 1998 in Japan but didn't hit shelves in the rest of the world until sept-nov 1999 and was discontinued in March 2001. So for most of the world the Dreamcast was only around for 15 months). Now, I don't think the Dreamcast itself killed Sega. I think the Sega Saturn did which 9.4 million units sold in just over 3 years (again, depending on how you view the Japan release which actually sold 6 million units over a 5 year period). That's after a generation of 40 million genesis sold. Playstation actually knocked it out of the market here and even hurt Nintendo significantly over this and the following generation with the two highest selling consoles of all time (looks like the Wii might topple the playstation, especially with the WiiU's performance being what it is, just like we saw the ps2 do when the ps3 had a rocky start).
I think Nintendo made some necessary changes like a price drop but it's only $50. They're coming out with some bigger titles soon but that's a year after release and the Dreamcast had a decent list of games by now. I think they'd be better suited to drop the gamepad and the $100+ it adds to the price tag and then everyone might buy the system. Nintendo blindly holds onto the gamepad as their differentiator when it's really their software. Especially with the ps4 having the Vita and what will be a free app that makes any idevice or android into a functioning gamepad. So them making a $140 peripheral mandatory is only hurting them due to the percieved power difference of the machines. Nintendo inadvertantly triggered the decoy effect [http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/brain-games/videos/the-decoy-effect/] with their original price being so close to the ps4 with a huge percieved quality gap. Microsoft may have done the same thing by going over the price at a reduced percieved quality than it. I don't know if Sony planned it that way but I'd like to shake the guy or gal's hand if someone did plan it. As such, I don't think being even $100 cheaper will necessarily be the difference. $300 is still in the area of having to choose between on or the other for most people in college or younger. $250 or lower would put them into the same position they were in last gen where a lot of people got it and the power console of their choice. It also convinced non-traditional gamers to purchase at that price and they've now lost them. Especially when the biggest perceived different between the console models was a 24gb upgrade in a world where $50 will get you a 1TB.
However, I have noticed that preorders for the next Zelda game have begun popping up in the best sellers in video games by hour. And, New Super Mario Brothers U just popped back in. Pikmin 3 is still on the list. So if the WiiU has a shot in its current form, we'll know by the end of december. I think if it goes dismally that there are still choices Nintendo can make to change things. I personally bet they're already working on them just in case. We'll see, but this is potentially a ray of light for them and a promise of increased console sales this holiday season. The ps3 went through something similar and managed to double their console numbers around this time in their first year too. So let's hope for a repeat.
Right now, by Nintendo's standard, they are failing and in a hole. The executive team has gone so far as to explain what several of their problems are. They know they failed with marketing early on and they know they haven't released serious software (in large enough numbers) for the system yet. So I think if Nintendo is willing to admit the problem, we should also be willing to see it for what it is.