Is Rap Music Really Music?

[Mcface]

I like how you would say Rap isn't music, but then you will pull out some "Oh, i am clearly superior, i listen to indie garage bohemian folk metal" or some shit, that is just some guy screaming and banging on a trash can.

 

[LightspeedJack]

Which is not to say there's no rap out there worth listening to; on the contrary, some is both worthwhile and socially relevant. However, when the vast majority of it is about how cool it is to be a criminal, or to have hot bitches and big TVs, I think society as a whole can do without that.

And I suppose you think all rock music is about worshipping Satan? Stop trying to be clever, just because you don't like rap doesn't make it not music. What was the point in this thread? A part from just trollin' obviously...

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

If you have no appreciation for what Led Zepplin, Aerosmith, Guns and Roses (and I could keep going) have done, you don't understand what music is. If you didn't think Black Eyed Peas songs were better before they released the E.N.D (ironic name), you don't know what music is.

If you ever liked the Black Eyed peas, you don't know what music is. If you don't know every single Chick Corea album, you don't know what music is. If you can't sing Con Te Partiro, you don't understand music.

IF YOU DON'T LISTEN TO TCHAIKOVSKY EVERY DAY WHEN YOU WAKE UP, YOU CAN'T CLAIM TO LIKE MUSIC.

That was sarcasm by the way... Real music lovers know that music evolves with people. If you don't like the music of the times, then enjoy the classics, but know that you will be ridiculed for not "getting with the times". If you're like me than you could care less.

My friend had a good quote on his facebook today... "The more you love music, the more music you love..." I think a lot of people in this thread need to think long and hard about what they are trying to prove saying that "rap isn't music".

You're like the people saying "videogames aren't art"... They are art, and it is music... Deal with it.

 

[ajh93]

i personally consider it music,but to each his own.

 

[EllEzDee]

Ugh, another person who dislikes this type of music and feels that means it isn't music. The fact that you say most rap is about bitches hoes and being a criminal shows you don't know what you're talking about. How about this, is Cannibal Corpse music? Most "music" from the last 5-10 years can't be classed as music because it's shit. Pop, dance, most new rock, most new rap music.
You can't say a genre you don't understand isn't music, because you don't understand it.

 

[pulse2]

(snip)

No, but see it this way, does one have to have a pitch in thier voice when writing a poem for it to be classed as music? What about the sentiment of the words, or the rhyming itself. Melodies are just added to make the words easier to listen to, but it doesnt define words as music or not. That would be like saying art is not art without colour. Therefore a drawing with a pencil is not considered art until it has some colour.

I think you're overreaching with the metaphor here. Allow me to address each example in turn:

On poetry being music... well, music isn't music unless you can hear it (no offense intended to deaf people I guess?). If the poem is on the page, then no it's not music any more than uncompiled code is a video game. What it is is the potential for music. Potentially, that poem could be lyrics to be used in a song. Technically, all song lyrics (rap, rock, R&B, whathaveyou) are poetry, but not all poetry is song lyrics. Intent doesn't make for results on its own, and as such, written words on their own are not music. However, if you take that same poem and put it in the context of "these are song lyrics," then it can become music. In the same light though, I've written lots of song lyrics that never went anywhere, and as such they are not music.

As for art not being art if it doesn't have colour, that's a different argument and not really comparable. A better comparison would be a description of what you intend to draw, with a picture of it in your head. Again, that is the potential for art, but it isn't art yet. I think that's a better comparison for the argument you're aiming for, if I'm understanding you correctly.

On the other hand, if we consider lyrics as a subset of poetry, then there is a comparison to be made with a pencil drawing. We'd then have to alter our scope of consideration a little, by saying art is comparable to written word, drawn art is comparable to poetry, and a specific type of drawn art, such as comic, is comparable to lyrics.

A comic illustrator will first sketch out what he wants to do in pencil, as a rough guideline. Then he'll redraw it in pen, replacing the pencil sketch entirely. In that process, the pencil sketch is potentially a comic, but it's also potentially a painting, a black and white drawing, or any other number of drawn forms of art. Similarly, poetry is potentially lyrics, but it's also potentially narrative, epic poem, joke, or any other number of types of written work. And in both cases, the person creating it may choose to just stop where they are and have that as the finished product. All comics are drawn art in the same way that all lyrics are poetry, and all drawn art is art in the same way that all poetry is the written word.

Wow, that ended up being a lot more long-winded than I'd planned on.

First of all, let me compliment you on being one of the few in here willing to structure a proper argument to go with your indifference in opinion, I don't mind people having a different opinion to my own, even if its about something I'm passionate about, but what annoys me is when people make an ignorant statement without making valid justification as to why.

On to your reply, I agree, music isn't music without being heard, on a page it is just written, but that's the point, the same could be said about anything, no matter whether it is rock, rap or country. Which leads me to this, even when someone raps, the ideology behind it is to rap to a beat, no matter what that beat may be. There is no such thing as a rapper who raps without some kind of timed beat. A good rapper can (spit) sing thier lyrics and get people moving to it without having to use any instruments, which negates your argeument about melodies being needed, just the same way a singer doesn't need an orchestra in the background to really push thier voice. Rap is about rhyming and making a point, that point is eitherto battle with an opposing rapper, to convey a feeling or thought, like a singer or to open the listeners mind to new concepts...or at least good rap is meant to do that anyway, that gangsta rap is something different, I'm not even going to explain that, just the same way I wouldn't be able to explain this if I was a metal fan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBKae1PDaAc&feature=pyv&ad=6246618800&kw=death%20metal&gclid=CP-01Mv60KUCFcse4QodehB9jQ

My point about the art isn't really that different, because like you said, to a deaf person, is music any less music as to a blind person is art any less art? The most important factor of music to me is to stir up a feeling inside ones soul. The melody doesnt matter if you don't enjoy the music. If I listen to classical, I expect it to make me feel calm or uplifted, if I listen to rock, I expect excitment or understanding and if I listen to Reggae, I expect joy and laughter, all these different genres bring out different emotions, and sometimes, music genres can appeal to different groups, Muse for example has done its fair share of incredible music that makes me want to be a rock star, while The Roots have me wanting to be the greatest rapper alive. THAT is the most important factor of music, because simply saying music is a melody is like putting anything that has a little tune into the same category as Micheal Jackson, I'm sorry, but the birds in my garden don't make me feel like boogying down and they too sing melodies. That doesn't mean the little songs they tweet are beautiful to hear, but thats about it, they don't do much else for me.

This is how we define good music from bad, a person with a bad voice can't sing, not because he lacks a melody, but because his melody is out of sync or the words he is singing aren't making much sense. A good rapper is judged on how well thier lyrics flow and how easy it is to get into the beat that they have created.

Now I say this to partially agree with you, when I write, my written words don't become a form of art until seen through someone elses eyes, to some, Tolkiens written work is considered an art. So in the same way, once those words have been taken from the page and put into someone's mouth, depending on how they express those words, it can be defined as music. It's a little extreme to say a rapper just speaks thier lyrics, bucause I have yet to come across a good rapper that speaks his lyrics any more then a rocker speaks his. They just express thier lyrics in very different ways. Okay, I'm going to shut up now because I've writtten more than I wanted to, lol, but I'll add one last question, in a flipped situation, where there is just intrumentals and no lyrics, would you class that as none music?

 

[pulse2]

If you have no appreciation for what Led Zepplin, Aerosmith, Guns and Roses (and I could keep going) have done, you don't understand what music is. If you didn't think Black Eyed Peas songs were better before they released the E.N.D (ironic name), you don't know what music is.

If you ever liked the Black Eyed peas, you don't know what music is. If you don't know every single Chick Corea album, you don't know what music is. If you can't sing Con Te Partiro, you don't understand music.

IF YOU DON'T LISTEN TO TCHAIKOVSKY EVERY DAY WHEN YOU WAKE UP, YOU CAN'T CLAIM TO LIKE MUSIC.

That was sarcasm by the way... Real music lovers know that music evolves with people. If you don't like the music of the times, then enjoy the classics, but know that you will be ridiculed for not "getting with the times". If you're like me than you could care less.

My friend had a good quote on his facebook today... "The more you love music, the more music you love..." I think a lot of people in this thread need to think long and hard about what they are trying to prove saying that "rap isn't music".

You're like the people saying "videogames aren't art"... They are art, and it is music... Deal with it.

It wasn't so much the fact of what music people listen to I was reffering to, it was the way in which you listen to music, for example, listening to Linkin Park and saying yes, THAT is rock, listening to Atomic Kitten and saying yes, THAT is pop.

Theres nothing wrong with enjoying music like this, but what shows if you really appreciate music for what it is, is if you are keen to find out what else is behind the mainstream stuff, keen to learn more. The same way a true scientists knows more about thier subject, or a race driver doesnt just see a car as a car, but as a sophisticated peice of engineering and technology that seeks to bring out the burning passion of driving, made up of several different elements and parts that have very different purposes but all work together in successive cohesion to form a marvoulous sycronized collaboration of different functions known as THE CAR. (Yes, I did all that deliberatly, lol)

 

[Blue_vision]

Rap is essentially lyrical poetry + rhythm + beat. I fail to see how that's not music. It may not have a part that you can pretend to play the violin or bang your head to, but that doesn't mean it's not music. Music is a much more complicated form of art that can be made up of a number of different elements, including lyrics, beat, and rhythm, which rap focuses on.

And just because there's popular rap going around today that's all about guns, hos, and money doesn't mean that's all it's about. Take Eminem, Mike Shinoda, Keny Arkana, or K'naan. I don't think there's anything about guns, hos or money in any of their lyrics, and it's definitely not the key to what they're saying. I mean, just because we've got Kesha going around singing about being an idiot doesn't mean all dance music is stupid and focusing on people being idiots, and it certainly doesn't revoke the genre's status as music.

 

[Ashcrexl]

my definition of music is anything that uses audio to create art. so to me, rap is very definitely music, just terrible music (for the most part).

 

[PrimoThePro]

I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have that recipe again
Oh nooooooooooo!

That's MacArthur Park. It was first recorded in 1968. Do you see the flaw in your logic? We forget all the crap from the past and focus on the good stuff. You can't fairly compare a good old song to a bad new one, because you're basically just pretending bad music didn't exist back then. in thirty years, people will be comparing their crap flavour of the month songs to Eminem and Lupe Fiasco to try and prove the same thing you are, and the same argument will still apply.

Back then, the shitty lyrics and terrible meaning of those songs weren't put at the front. That's all you see today. Rap is commonly associated with bitches and hoes and capping someone's ass. Sure there were shitty lyrics in the past, but they didn't define the genre they came from. You take the many popular songs from the 60's and their lyrics have meaning. Take any popular song from today, and you get... well you know what I'm saying.
Yes I am aware of how HUGE a generalization that is. But I have yet to find many popular/well known rap songs that aren't completely superficial. (This is just me though, as this is where I'm basing my argument, my common knowledge)

This just reeks of "no true Scotsman." You can call it urban all you want, it's still rap. Congratulations, you've just blown a hole in your own logic.

Um. Thank you? Key word is I. I call it Urban. Exactly. It's still Rap. But the Rap with soul and meaning deserves it's own genre instead of being sullied with the rest of the smut.

It's why I like rap. It is so true to itself and there are lyrics more than just, "I want to kill everything." Once again, you're just ignoring the bad to try and prove your argument right and it simply doesn't work. On top of that, you're providing such a vague generalization that just isn't fair to rap. Oh, I'm sorry. All the rap with good lyrics are "urban."

You are right here, I wasn't fair and I am sorry for my generalization, but you gotta see where I'm coming from. Time and again I have seen and heard either kids or just on the TV the music and how it is portrayed. Why? Why would anyone enjoy it? Tastes differ I guess. I can also admit there is bad metal out there. I'm positive of this. And it as well sullies the heart and soul of that music genre. But even so, the ideals Metal pushes remain the same where with Rap, I don't even know what to think. On the one hand you have all that shitty sound where 50 Cent goes on and on about how he was shot, and and how he gets all the bitches, but then there are other songs out there, like that one I discovered recently, Handlebars. Simply wonderful. Why can't that be the face of Rap? Tell me Freebird., I want to know.
(No, I am not saying that angrily, I genuinely want to know from a fan of Rap why the good music in that genre is ignored)

 

[ProfessorLayton]

Kanye is a fantastic rapper, iregardles of what he sometimes says or does. I don't like him as a person but I give credit where it's due.
Aside from alot of great songs of his, like the one you posted, he produced alot of amazing ones for other rappers like Jay-Z and Common.

I actually have a feeling that Kanye West is a lot smarter than we think. Sure, he does douchey things, but he's a household name. Even my mom knows who he is. A lot of people don't like him, but everyone knows who he is and I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he wanted from the beginning.

And My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is the absolute best album of 2010. I mean... just check out all the people who worked on it with him. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Beautiful_Dark_Twisted_Fantasy#Track_listing]

Spoiler: You call this MUSIC?!

No it is not.
I see music by their lyrics and the emotions conveyed in the music. Some Rap is poetic and beautiful, I call such music Urban, not Rap.
It's why I like Metal. It is so true to itself and there are lyrics there that are more then just "I slammed 40 bitches last night."

"Brutality now becomes my appetite
Violence is now a way of life
The sledge my tool to torture
As it pounds down on your forehead"

Those were metal lyrics. We could go back and forth all day.

 

[whycantibelinus]

That definition of music is essentially just organized sound, so sure it's music. Is it sonically appealling to everyone? No. I'm not the hugest fan of it, pretty much the only song I like is No Diggity, but oh well. People can like what they want.

 

[Legion IV]

If you say it isint then either is meatl. Yes thrashing the guitar and screaming beyond all understanding. Thats music. Perfect that makes perfect sence.

Of course it music. Better then that metal core or anything with core on the end of it.

 

[likalaruku]

I concider it a form of poetry, but the repetitive rhythem & lack of variety in tone make me exclude it as a form of music. It's more talking than singing & the beat never changes. Now 90s hip-hop was music.

 

[DiMono]

(snip)

First of all, let me compliment you on being one of the few in here willing to structure a proper argument to go with your indifference in opinion, I don't mind people having a different opinion to my own, even if its about something I'm passionate about, but what annoys me is when people make an ignorant statement without making valid justification as to why.

On to your reply, I agree, music isn't music without being heard, on a page it is just written, but that's the point, the same could be said about anything, no matter whether it is rock, rap or country. Which leads me to this, even when someone raps, the ideology behind it is to rap to a beat, no matter what that beat may be. There is no such thing as a rapper who raps without some kind of timed beat. A good rapper can (spit) sing thier lyrics and get people moving to it without having to use any instruments, which negates your argeument about melodies being needed, just the same way a singer doesn't need an orchestra in the background to really push thier voice. Rap is about rhyming and making a point, that point is eitherto battle with an opposing rapper, to convey a feeling or thought, like a singer or to open the listeners mind to new concepts...or at least good rap is meant to do that anyway, that gangsta rap is something different, I'm not even going to explain that, just the same way I wouldn't be able to explain this if I was a metal fan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBKae1PDaAc&feature=pyv&ad=6246618800&kw=death%20metal&gclid=CP-01Mv60KUCFcse4QodehB9jQ

My point about the art isn't really that different, because like you said, to a deaf person, is music any less music as to a blind person is art any less art? The most important factor of music to me is to stir up a feeling inside ones soul. The melody doesnt matter if you don't enjoy the music. If I listen to classical, I expect it to make me feel calm or uplifted, if I listen to rock, I expect excitment or understanding and if I listen to Reggae, I expect joy and laughter, all these different genres bring out different emotions, and sometimes, music genres can appeal to different groups, Muse for example has done its fair share of incredible music that makes me want to be a rock star, while The Roots have me wanting to be the greatest rapper alive. THAT is the most important factor of music, because simply saying music is a melody is like putting anything that has a little tune into the same category as Micheal Jackson, I'm sorry, but the birds in my garden don't make me feel like boogying down and they too sing melodies. That doesn't mean the little songs they tweet are beautiful to hear, but thats about it, they don't do much else for me.

This is how we define good music from bad, a person with a bad voice can't sing, not because he lacks a melody, but because his melody is out of sync or the words he is singing aren't making much sense. A good rapper is judged on how well thier lyrics flow and how easy it is to get into the beat that they have created.

Now I say this to partially agree with you, when I write, my written words don't become a form of art until seen through someone elses eyes, to some, Tolkiens written work is considered an art. So in the same way, once those words have been taken from the page and put into someone's mouth, depending on how they express those words, it can be defined as music. It's a little extreme to say a rapper just speaks thier lyrics, bucause I have yet to come across a good rapper that speaks his lyrics any more then a rocker speaks his. They just express thier lyrics in very different ways. Okay, I'm going to shut up now because I've writtten more than I wanted to, lol, but I'll add one last question, in a flipped situation, where there is just intrumentals and no lyrics, would you class that as none music?

I know, it's hard to keep posts short in here, right? Quick tip though: their, not thier.

Of course I wouldn't class that as not being music; melody doesn't need to be vocal, just present. And it's not so much that it's not music or art until experience by someone else, it's more that it's not music or art until it's in its finished form. Prince (see what I did there?) has entire albums of music locked away in a safe that have never been heard by anyone except those in the recording studio, presumably so if the world goes up we'll have music. The fact that nobody's heard it doesn't make it any less music than When Doves Cry is.

As for what to expect from music, I think it's a little disingenuous to say all classical music makes you feel this way, all rock makes you feel that way. Bach's Fugues may elicit one emotion, while Mozart's Symphonies may take you through several in rapid succession. I think the point is that it should make you feel some emotion, rather than necessarily feeling a specific emotion.

Let me approach this from another angle though: would you say Kesha sings?

 

[kemosabi4]

Spoiler: Here's me proving you wrong.

Rock AND Rap
Next lot will be the greatest Rap artist ever in my opinion.
And Is this rap? Because it's the first modern song I have loved in a LONG time.

Calumon: I thought it was the street telling poetry? Then again, it always was kinda quiet.

Oh my Go.. I... Will you marry me?

 

[KissofKetchup]

Most rap today? No. Pointless? Not always. Rap can be the vehicle to express many emotions and explore many meaningful, important and controversial issues that aren't always possible in song for various reasons. Rap to me is really just poetry spoken to a beat. It's definitly still art in the same way a Shakespearean sonnet is artistic in nature. That said, most rap today is still crap because all it is about is some retarded dance move, how much money the rapper has, or how many bitches he gets.

 

[Hollock]

You're getting at the lack of tonality in most rap right? Because I know you don't hate rap, and you're not in the "bitches and ho's" mindset. By this you have a point, but I would never say that it means rap doesn't count as music. It's poetry accompanied by instruments in a manner to blend together a smooth flowing sound. But they go together, they're made for each other. It's not like me reading Walt Whitman with flight of the bumblebee playing in the background.
off topic: most of the new music that I like today counts as rap. But it's really hard to find. Sturgeon's law at work.