Is the modeling industry representative of what men actually find attractive?

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Seanchaidh

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cleverlymadeup said:
tho there are some men that like different things in women, the vast majority go after a certain body shape in women, which is linked with better chances of reproduction. it invovles a hip to waist ratio, breast size and perkiness and a couple other factors
Ah, an evolutionary psych claim. Studies suggesting that have been found to be not quite so universal as you might have thought. The basic reason for this is because conditions vary widely across the world.

Source [http://www.newsweek.com/id/202789/page/1]:

That is what a new wave of studies has been discovering, slaying assertions about universals right and left. One evo-psych claim that captured the public's imagination?and a 1996 cover story in NEWSWEEK?is that men have a mental module that causes them to prefer women with a waist-to-hip ratio of 0.7 (a 36-25-36 figure, for instance). Reprising the rape debate, social scientists and policymakers who worried that this would send impressionable young women scurrying for a measuring tape and a how-to book on bulimia could only sputter about how pernicious this message was, but not that it was scientifically wrong. To the contrary, proponents of this idea had gobs of data in their favor. Using their favorite guinea pigs?American college students?they found that men, shown pictures of different female body types, picked Ms. 36-25-36 as their sexual ideal. The studies, however, failed to rule out the possibility that the preference was not innate?human nature?but, rather, the product of exposure to mass culture and the messages it sends about what's beautiful. Such basic flaws, notes Bingham, "led to complaints that many of these experiments seemed a little less than rigorous to be underpinning an entire new field."

Later studies, which got almost no attention, indeed found that in isolated populations in Peru and Tanzania, men consider hourglass women sickly looking. They prefer 0.9s?heavier women. And last December, anthropologist Elizabeth Cashdan of the University of Utah reported in the journal Current Anthropology that men now prefer this non-hourglass shape in countries where women tend to be economically independent (Britain and Denmark) and in some non-Western societies where women bear the responsibility for finding food. Only in countries where women are economically dependent on men (such as Japan, Greece and Portugal) do men have a strong preference for Barbie. (The United States is in the middle.) Cashdan puts it this way: which body type men prefer "should depend on [italics added] the degree to which they want their mates to be strong, tough, economically successful and politically competitive."

Depend on? The very phrase is anathema to the dogma of a universal human nature. But it is the essence of an emerging, competing field. Called behavioral ecology, it starts from the premise that social and environmental forces select for various behaviors that optimize people's fitness in a given environment. Different environment, different behaviors?and different human "natures." That's why men prefer Ms. 36-25-36 in some cultures (where women are, to exaggerate only a bit, decorative objects) but not others (where women bring home salaries or food they've gathered in the jungle).

And it's why the evo psych tenet that men have an inherited mental module that causes them to prefer young, beautiful women while women have one that causes them to prefer older, wealthy men also falls apart. As 21st-century Western women achieve professional success and gain financial independence, their mate preference changes, scientists led by Fhionna Moore at Scotland's University of St Andrews reported in 2006 in the journal Evolutionand Human Behaviour. The more financially independent a woman is, the more likely she is to choose a partner based on looks than bank balance?kind of like (some) men. (Yes, growing sexual equality in the economic realm means that women, too, are free to choose partners based on how hot they are, as the cougar phenomenon suggests.) Although that finding undercuts evo psych, it supports the "it depends" school of behavioral ecology, which holds that natural selection chose general intelligence and flexibility, not mental modules preprogrammed with preferences and behaviors. "Evolutionary psychology ridicules the notion that the brain could have evolved to be an all-purpose fitness-maximizing mechanism," says Hill. "But that's exactly what we keep finding."
In other words, the conclusions of human judgment tend to vary based on the relevant conditions on the ground.
 

axia777

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Not me it is not. Those women in general need to go eat a few burgers. Get some meat on them bones.
 

StarStruckStrumpets

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Amnestic said:
funguy2121 said:
Sadly, I think that porn better represents our taste in women than high fashion or Hollywood - yet women and young girls alike model themselves on Ralph Lauren and cinema.
If any woman models themselves on what they think Men (as some sort of collective consciousnes) want then they're doing it wrong.
Amnestic, I must confess my admiration and ever growing love for you. I couldn't have said it better myself.

OT: Models make me ill. The majority of them would curl over if you gave them a brick to hold.

Pork and Bacon for everyone!
 

dududf

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funguy2121 said:
Cuniculus said:
All men are different for one.

Two, men don't care. Ralph Lauren and Movies like to pretend they know who we like because they parade a certain type out and we all go "She's hot!" But seriously, as long as she's not super repulsive, there is bound to be guys who like anyone they put in magazines and movies.
Is that why so many guys lose their shit over Jennifer Garner and Megan Fox?
Stereo type much?

Only thing that's overly hot about Fox, is the eyes.

Any who, I don't want a stick lady, but I also don't want something overly chubby.

It comes down to looking healthy, and the face. Breasts and butts in that order. :)
 

cleverlymadeup

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funguy2121 said:
You're just upset because I, being more manly than you, have more aggressive sperm as a result. And therefore, my soldiers are likely to be better swimmers than yours. Which means, if you and I ever appear in one of those really weird pornos wherein the nice young woman wishes to have two gentlemen dilate her cervix simultaneously, my marines will outmaneuver yours to the egg and have time left over to draw straws.

Seriously though, how do you scientifically gauge "manliness" and how does this impact sperm boot-camp?
you harp on me being the immature and condesending and patronizing one and yet, you're the one who keeps doing all the things you accuse me of. so i will say this, grow the hell up and when you're no longer a child come and talk to me

Seanchaidh said:
Ah, an evolutionary psych claim. Studies suggesting that have been found to be not quite so universal as you might have thought. The basic reason for this is because conditions vary widely across the world.

Source [http://www.newsweek.com/id/202789/page/1]:
In other words, the conclusions of human judgment tend to vary based on the relevant conditions on the ground.
you do realize that article actually proved what i was saying right? so thanx for proving me right. they were holding onto one specific measurement, which is NOT what i'm saying or have said, while there is proven health benefits for the .7 hip to waist ratio, most men prefer between .7 and .9 and that's even what the article was saying.

there is good evidence supporting stuff like this, that type of ratio has been given the nickname of "child bearing hips" for a good reason. when you get to having the number in the positive things don't go so well and there's often a lot of issues with the pregnancy and all my friends who've had kids that did have a >1 hip to waist ratio all had issues with their pregnancies, the ones who didn't were perfectly fine
 

funguy2121

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cleverlymadeup said:
funguy2121 said:
You're just upset because I, being more manly than you, have more aggressive sperm as a result. And therefore, my soldiers are likely to be better swimmers than yours. Which means, if you and I ever appear in one of those really weird pornos wherein the nice young woman wishes to have two gentlemen dilate her cervix simultaneously, my marines will outmaneuver yours to the egg and have time left over to draw straws.

Seriously though, how do you scientifically gauge "manliness" and how does this impact sperm boot-camp?
you harp on me being the immature and condesending and patronizing one and yet, you're the one who keeps doing all the things you accuse me of. so i will say this, grow the hell up and when you're no longer a child come and talk to me

Seanchaidh said:
Ah, an evolutionary psych claim. Studies suggesting that have been found to be not quite so universal as you might have thought. The basic reason for this is because conditions vary widely across the world.

Source [http://www.newsweek.com/id/202789/page/1]:
In other words, the conclusions of human judgment tend to vary based on the relevant conditions on the ground.
you do realize that article actually proved what i was saying right? so thanx for proving me right. they were holding onto one specific measurement, which is NOT what i'm saying or have said, while there is proven health benefits for the .7 hip to waist ratio, most men prefer between .7 and .9 and that's even what the article was saying.

there is good evidence supporting stuff like this, that type of ratio has been given the nickname of "child bearing hips" for a good reason. when you get to having the number in the positive things don't go so well and there's often a lot of issues with the pregnancy and all my friends who've had kids that did have a >1 hip to waist ratio all had issues with their pregnancies, the ones who didn't were perfectly fine
"Answer the question, Claire!"

1. You said that "manlier men have more aggressive sperm." If you don't find that statement funny...

2. You still continue talking about pregnancy. I'm not asking you to theorize that all dudes share your obsession (it doesn't explain what gay men find attractive, for example). I'm asking why for you everything comes down to fertility. What about recreational and expressive sex. Of the dates, girlfriends, fuckbuddies, one night stands and feel-coppings I've engaged in my life, not one has had the goal of producing good offspring.

3. My major problem with your premise is that it's deterministic, and in my view that means it may as well be mystic, nihilistic or defeatist. Unless I misunderstand you, you make the claim that overwhelmingly men are attracted to a certain mathematical anatomical relationship, and that this is the exclusive result of genetics.

You are certainly right about my maturity, at least when it comes to the sense of humor. You got so in-your-face about your beliefs, and were so dismissive of those who disagreed with you, and then you got super-defensive. I must confess, I couldn't resist. It really isn't anything personal. But read statement 1. Do you really think that's defensible?
 

funguy2121

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dududf said:
funguy2121 said:
Cuniculus said:
All men are different for one.

Two, men don't care. Ralph Lauren and Movies like to pretend they know who we like because they parade a certain type out and we all go "She's hot!" But seriously, as long as she's not super repulsive, there is bound to be guys who like anyone they put in magazines and movies.
Is that why so many guys lose their shit over Jennifer Garner and Megan Fox?
Stereo type much?

Only thing that's overly hot about Fox, is the eyes.

Any who, I don't want a stick lady, but I also don't want something overly chubby.

It comes down to looking healthy, and the face. Breasts and butts in that order. :)
No. I was talking about the guys who go on about some generically (tepidly) hot chick like Fox or worse, some bird-creature like Paris Hilton. Honestly, when I hear a guy fawn over a Hilton I really think it's some sort of status thing to him, like it makes him more of an alpha to be attracted to some stuck-up rich *****.

Then again, I did know a guy who said he was attracted to "plain" girls. He knocked up 2 minors. Real winner.
 

funguy2121

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http://media.photobucket.com/image/sunny%20lane/ssviking/SunnyLane1.jpg

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/X6uALVFW630/AVN+Awards+Mandalay+Bay+Arrivals/l_oIoUuqm19/Sunny+Lane

...well?

I know her occupation was virtually the same before, but just knowing she's now an actual whore does kinda ruin it for me.
 

dududf

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funguy2121 said:
dududf said:
funguy2121 said:
Cuniculus said:
All men are different for one.

Two, men don't care. Ralph Lauren and Movies like to pretend they know who we like because they parade a certain type out and we all go "She's hot!" But seriously, as long as she's not super repulsive, there is bound to be guys who like anyone they put in magazines and movies.
Is that why so many guys lose their shit over Jennifer Garner and Megan Fox?
Stereo type much?

Only thing that's overly hot about Fox, is the eyes.

Any who, I don't want a stick lady, but I also don't want something overly chubby.

It comes down to looking healthy, and the face. Breasts and butts in that order. :)
No. I was talking about the guys who go on about some generically (tepidly) hot chick like Fox or worse, some bird-creature like Paris Hilton. Honestly, when I hear a guy fawn over a Hilton I really think it's some sort of status thing to him, like it makes him more of an alpha to be attracted to some stuck-up rich *****.

Then again, I did know a guy who said he was attracted to "plain" girls. He knocked up 2 minors. Real winner.
[jokes] Wait a second, you are either a alpha and like ugly bitches, or you're normal and a pedophile... hrmm... [/jokes]

Yeah, I kinda get what you're saying when people say they like people like hilton and uh...(I don't know any thing about celebs, I frankl don't give a rats ass..) uhh... stuck up ***** X, it's probably just to seem "cool". But seriously? I don't think they actually like it, as in it could just be them "Playing their role" if you know what I mean.

I stick by what I said though :p
 

cleverlymadeup

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funguy2121 said:
"Answer the question, Claire!"

1. You said that "manlier men have more aggressive sperm." If you don't find that statement funny...
actually you misunderstood what i said, which has been par for the course for you so far.

2. You still continue talking about pregnancy. I'm not asking you to theorize that all dudes share your obsession (it doesn't explain what gay men find attractive, for example). I'm asking why for you everything comes down to fertility. What about recreational and expressive sex. Of the dates, girlfriends, fuckbuddies, one night stands and feel-coppings I've engaged in my life, not one has had the goal of producing good offspring.
sex is about procreation, whether or not you consciously think about it or want it at that time, you are only doing it because that's the end result. when you look at a woman in the first few seconds you size up whether or not you would like to have children with her and her ability to provide you with them.

this has been proven over and over by science and various studies

3. My major problem with your premise is that it's deterministic, and in my view that means it may as well be mystic, nihilistic or defeatist. Unless I misunderstand you, you make the claim that overwhelmingly men are attracted to a certain mathematical anatomical relationship, and that this is the exclusive result of genetics.
actually it's the other way around, i've got tons of science and studies behind what i'm saying, you're basically pulling the creationism argument in the creationism vs evolution.

You are certainly right about my maturity, at least when it comes to the sense of humor. You got so in-your-face about your beliefs, and were so dismissive of those who disagreed with you, and then you got super-defensive. I must confess, I couldn't resist. It really isn't anything personal. But read statement 1. Do you really think that's defensible?
i haven't gotten defensive you've just been acting like the child you are. the thing is i've got tons of science and studies behind me to back up what i'm saying, everyone from psychologists to zoologists.

all you've done to counter my arguments has been calling me names and i've just called you out on your immaturity. and even now you still can't do it in a mature fashion, you still call me names, if you notice i haven't done that once

so grow up and actually back up your statements with some truth, cause i can pull tons of science to back up what i'm saying
 

funguy2121

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...still taking yourself too seriously. Do you think Sunny Lane is hot or not? I esp. love how the hip-to-waist ratio is displayed by those jeans in the first pic, and I'm not kidding there.

Also,

"Answer the question, Claire!"
 

Seanchaidh

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cleverlymadeup said:
you do realize that article actually proved what i was saying right? so thanx for proving me right. they were holding onto one specific measurement, which is NOT what i'm saying or have said, while there is proven health benefits for the .7 hip to waist ratio, most men prefer between .7 and .9 and that's even what the article was saying.
Do you have any idea how big a difference 0.7 is from 0.9?

sex is about procreation, whether or not you consciously think about it or want it at that time, you are only doing it because that's the end result.
Now this is obviously false. Correlation is not causation. Evolutionary history is not a reason, it's a condition. The reason we have sex remains in most cases to be the pursuit of pleasure. That is the conscious purpose and unconscious motivation. Otherwise there would be no evolutionary reason for sex to be pleasurable. Now you can say that it's only pleasurable because being motivated in that way to have sex was selected for, and lack of pleasure selected against, but that isn't the same thing... at all. If nothing else, the existence of contraceptives breaks the logical chain: if I'm wearing a condom or I know she's on the pill, I'm not consciously or unconsciously having sex to have children. It's just plainly not what I'm doing. I can consciously manipulate the biological responses to certain conditions while robbing those responses of the evolutionary context that caused them to be selected for in the first place: that is basically what it means to have a frontal cortex. Hedonism is just a bit more common than rampant childbearing, as well it should be.
 

bombchu

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Seems like a no. I mean, of course it depends but super skinny girls don't get hit on nearly as much. I know this first hand... D: Besides, guys don't really go for girls that are around their height. Models are giants!
 

Dys

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Sulu said:
Models are far too thin. They need a good plate of bacon!
I need a good plate of bacon. But hey, who doesn't?

Yes, most girls have fuck all idea what I find attractive. I can only assume that a sizable portion of guys share my taste in girls (I tend to be attracted to girls who look fit/healthy, and one would assume that's how nature intended it to be. "Fit/healthy" is notably different from "skinny").
 

Ziadaine_v1legacy

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Its a woman-eat-woman world in fashion, they demand perfection and it creates pressure on others as well as younger women/girls into thinking "I have to be like that to be accepted by others"

PERSONALLY, If I can see your ribs/bones or your overweight (not just slightly chubby, I mean OVERweight) then that's an instant turn-off.