Is there any REASON gay marriage is wrong?

[Mrsoupcup]

Nope. It's morally wrong in some religions and even that is a stretch. It hardly seems fair to control someones life based on your religion that they may not even be part of.

 

[Awsomeotaku]

Well it's still a holy term for most religions and there's nothing anyone can do to change that, but why is it so bad to call it something different. I guess it might make some people feel singled out. But calling it that is kinda disrespectful to a lot of religions. I know we can't always respect religions but this time we could.

 

[Rafe]

For one its not as if their are no other options, civil partnerships and the like hold the same benefits. Also not all are against gay marriage.

Secondly I thought I said this, but they're not discriminating for "no good reason". Christianity, whether you believe or not (I don't), have shaped nearly all morality and politics of the West over 2000 years. You can't just attack their views by calling them "intolerant" because that is exactly what you are showing to them in the first place. Who are we to judge what is right and wrong?

And seeing as we like analogies: Imagine someone turns up to a private party completely uninvited, surely its the hosts right to turn them away, and if the person starts his own party that people go to then everyone has achieved the result they wanted. My point is religions are being attacked for defending their principles and should be respected for it. Find a different branch of Christianity or other religions that is tolerant if you're determined to be in a church. Why would you want to go some place where you are not tolerated anyway? Find somewhere different and better.

What Christianity has to say about my relationship means less than nothing to me, as I am not Christian. Marriage is not the exclusive property of Christianity. People were getting married before the eyes of Zeus, Ra, and Odin well before anyone ever heard of the Jewish God. No one is saying "Christians must start marrying gays." All we're saying is for them to keep their objections to their religion, and let the secular law of the land stop discriminating.

Christianity means little to me too and thats a fair point. I'm saying that certain institutions should have their rights to refuse accepted and not overridden and hopefully they will adopt their views to the current times over time as even they are (slightly) dynamic. Its also not just Christianity. I'm all for gay marriage and I have gay friends but religious standpoints should not be disregarded and labelled 'intolerant'and 'obsolete'. I'm specifically arguing that if you're looking for same-sex marriage in a church and they refuse, then you can find somewhere else. I'm surprised at myself for defending religion to be honest but their must be a middle ground.

 

[Satosuke]

[sarcasm]I'm going to assume that the previous 20+ pages of posts are all meaningful, friendly debate about a sensitive subject, and I predict more civil discourse after this post.[/sarcasm]

In all seriousness though, it's a tough subject because of one particular detail. Marriage, to Christians, is a sacrament. It's one of the most important rites in their faith, and the binding contract with god to create a family and have children to carry on their faith and tradition. To Christians, marriage is not a right, it's THEIR right.

In simple terms: It's not really a "we hate fags so let's oppress them!" situation but more like a "stop trying to take this away from us!" situation. While I disagree with the sentiment, I can empathize with this line of thought.

The problem with it is that not only is the concept of marriage part of other religions, but it's a legal term too. It's not just their rite anymore. Marriages carried out my a judge in a courthouse fall under the purview of 'state' and thus cannot be constitutionally defined by the 'church'. My solution would be to strip the term marriage of all legal definition. Any spousal contract conducted by the courts, gay or straight, should be called a civil union. Then, the debate about the definition of marriage can be shoved far far FAR from the government, so then maybe we can debate stuff that actually matters, like the budget.

 

[Archtype]

Man, apparently some people really get their undies in a knot over this. Calm down guys, trying to have a gentlemanly debate here. Let's keep it that way.

I don't care enough to take it to another forum... sorry. I'm here now if you wish to partake in banter! ;D

The word "wrong" is very interesting. I say that because it is defined by whatever deity you believe in....we would not have a "right" or a "wrong" without a God or gods. So the simple fact that you are trying to argue about what constitutes as "right" does not make any sense. If you are not religious there is nothing "right" just as there is nothing "wrong". So who are you to debate other people on something being "right" or "wrong"? Because you have no view on the matter whatsoever.

The fact of homosexuality is: it comes down to if you are religious or not.

1) If observed from a religious standpoint, it is wrong. (Especially in terms of Christianity. I am making a generalization btw, I know that some religions accept it.)

2) If you are NOT looking at it from a religious standpoint, you should not care one way or another.

I'm tempted to hit you with the typical Euthyphro Dilemma but the response I've gotten to that lately has been circular reasoning. But hey, in case you're not familiar with it...

Is that which is good, good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good? If the first, then goodness is subject to God's will, thus if say God ordered you to murder someone that would be morally right. If the second, then God is not needed for morality to exist.

Of course this is only relevant if you ascribe the concept of objective morality to God. I believe in neither objective morality or God so...yeah.

Precisely! And considering that, as a Christian, I believe that God created "good" and "evil" and set their respective boundaries, I believe that if God says it is wrong, it is wrong. Otherwise, we would just be monkeys that somehow survived and ended up on top of the food chain instead of T-Rexes. But to hop this sucker back on topic.....

With all that being said,

1) Is homosexuality "wrong"? Yes. No doubt about it according to the Bible.

2) Should ANYONE (including myself) try to stop/restrict someone who wants to partake in gay "marriage"? NO! As long as it is not harmful to someone else, they should be allowed to do what they want.

 

[Xisin]

Marriage is seen as a religious institution in my country, and most of the countries represented here, it happens in a church/chapel, it is believed to be in the presence of God, a holy union set forth in the bible. Now although marriage is quickly moving away from this 'holy' view, as now you don't have to get married in a church, or by an ordained person, and divorce is seen as far more socially acceptable than, say 50 years ago, there are still many religious people who view marriage as a religious event, to be done in reverence to God and in accordance with the Bible.

Now, it doesn't take a genius to figure that the main religions and most religious people still believe that homosexuality is a sin against God, and thus a gay marriage is an unholy union, ergo gay marriage is be wrong. It's a pretty simple straightforward point of view.

Yeah, I was going to say pretty much the same thing (about religion), which brings up another question. What verse(s) in the bible led to the understanding that homosexuality is a sin? I currently don't have a bible, so if anyone on the forum does and can answer my question, can you clarify? Thanks.

Marriage wasn't originally religious, though. It evolved to be so. I myself am an atheist and got married. For me it was a tax thing. After 8 years of living together, we just walked in and got wed; at a hair salon of all things.

If they want it why not?

As for the not forcing churches into marrying them. That's fine...if and only if they pay taxes. Most religious places do not and if they don't they have no right to refuse anyone.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

I'm not attracted to men, and I don't really see why some people would be, even women. Seriously, I sometimes wonder why every woman in the world isn't a lesbian.

You sir, have provide me with my ?quote of the day?. Good show!

Man, apparently some people really get their undies in a knot over this. Calm down guys, trying to have a gentlemanly debate here. Let's keep it that way.

Once you prove your capacity to have an actual debate, I?ll stop asking for an ignore button.

The word "wrong" is very interesting. I say that because it is defined by whatever deity you believe in....we would not have a "right" or a "wrong" without a God or gods. So the simple fact that you are trying to argue about what constitutes as "right" does not make any sense. If you are not religious there is nothing "right" just as there is nothing "wrong". So who are you to debate other people on something being "right" or "wrong"? Because you have no view on the matter whatsoever.

I?m not sure how many logical fallacies you just made, and I don?t care to go through them all. Let?s brass tax this; religion does NOT have the market corned on morality, ethics or the concepts of right and wrong. One does not require the faith in an all powerful deity to adhere to their own personal beliefs of how they should or should not act. Your views on religion do not justify the removal of rights from others than do not share your belief.

But if we use your "logic" (and I use the term very loosely), Ares makes it right for me to kill you, skin you a live and use your flesh as my umbrella cover. The Christian god makes it right for me to kill non-christians. The Muslim god makes it wrong to not pray several times a day or face the wrong way. What view would you accept?

The fact of homosexuality is: it comes down to if you are religious or not.

No it doesn?t. Plenty of people on both sides are religious and not.

1) If observed from a religious standpoint, it is wrong. (Especially in terms of Christianity. I am making a generalization btw, I know that some religions accept it.)

There are many alternative thoughts behind what Christians should do/believe/etc, based on what the Bible tells them. I find it odd that this one is adhered to in the strictest sense but the others are casually forgotten.

2) If you are NOT looking at it from a religious standpoint, you should not care one way or another.

About the only thing I could agree with you on. Now do you accept the fact that religious beliefs cannot dictate secular provisions?

 

[Mrsoupcup]

It's genetic, it's not like they just decide one day "Yeah, I'm gonna try to date a guy now".

If it is genetic, the reason natural selection has allowed it is because Homosexuality could be natures "birth control" if you will. A way to prevent overpopulation, which seems to make sense when you think about. Like a natural fail safe to keep us from consuming ourselves.

(Which would mean it's a good thing, and the way we are head means one day it may come down to a 50/50 chance of everyone be gay or straight)

 

[InvisibleMan]

Sorry, but no... I can't find any reason whatsoever on why gay marriage would be wrong!

 

[Stevepinto3]

I'm tempted to hit you with the typical Euthyphro Dilemma but the response I've gotten to that lately has been circular reasoning. But hey, in case you're not familiar with it...

Is that which is good, good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good? If the first, then goodness is subject to God's will, thus if say God ordered you to murder someone that would be morally right. If the second, then God is not needed for morality to exist.

Of course this is only relevant if you ascribe the concept of objective morality to God. I believe in neither objective morality or God so...yeah.

Precisely! And considering that, as a Christian, I believe that God created "good" and "evil" and set their respective boundaries, I believe that if God says it is wrong, it is wrong. Otherwise, we would just be monkeys that somehow survived and ended up on top of the food chain instead of T-Rexes. But to hop this sucker back on topic.....

With all that being said,

1) Is homosexuality "wrong"? Yes. No doubt about it according to the Bible.

2) Should ANYONE (including myself) try to stop/restrict someone who wants to partake in gay "marriage"? NO! As long as it is not harmful to someone else, they should be allowed to do what they want.

I...I don't think I've ever seen someone just completely concede to the Euthyphro Dilemma before. You do realize you've just stated that there is an objective morality that is subjective in nature, right? Do you not see the contradiction in that? Seriously, are you trolling me?

I agree with 2. I disagree with 1 because that's what we call blind faith.

 

[Archtype]

I'm not attracted to men, and I don't really see why some people would be, even women. Seriously, I sometimes wonder why every woman in the world isn't a lesbian.

You sir, have provide me with my ?quote of the day?. Good show!

Man, apparently some people really get their undies in a knot over this. Calm down guys, trying to have a gentlemanly debate here. Let's keep it that way.

Once you prove your capacity to have an actual debate, I?ll stop asking for an ignore button.

The word "wrong" is very interesting. I say that because it is defined by whatever deity you believe in....we would not have a "right" or a "wrong" without a God or gods. So the simple fact that you are trying to argue about what constitutes as "right" does not make any sense. If you are not religious there is nothing "right" just as there is nothing "wrong". So who are you to debate other people on something being "right" or "wrong"? Because you have no view on the matter whatsoever.

I?m not sure how many logical fallacies you just made, and I don?t care to go through them all. Let?s brass tax this; religion does NOT have the market corned on morality, ethics or the concepts of right and wrong. One does not require the faith in an all powerful deity to adhere to their own personal beliefs of how they should or should not act. Your views on religion do not justify the removal of rights from others than do not share your belief.

But if we use your "logic" (and I use the term very loosely), Ares makes it right for me to kill you, skin you a live and use your flesh as my umbrella cover. The Christian god makes it right for me to kill non-christians. The Muslim god makes it wrong to not pray several times a day or face the wrong way. What view would you accept?

The fact of homosexuality is: it comes down to if you are religious or not.

No it doesn?t. Plenty of people on both sides are religious and not.

1) If observed from a religious standpoint, it is wrong. (Especially in terms of Christianity. I am making a generalization btw, I know that some religions accept it.)

There are many alternative thoughts behind what Christians should do/believe/etc, based on what the Bible tells them. I find it odd that this one is adhered to in the strictest sense but the others are casually forgotten.

2) If you are NOT looking at it from a religious standpoint, you should not care one way or another.

About the only thing I could agree with you on. Now do you accept the fact that religious beliefs cannot dictate secular provisions?

Rofl wow. Like I said. Some people really get wound up over this. Why you mad dude?

First of all I just said that IF IT IS NOT HARMFUL, IT SHOULD NOT BE RESTRICTED. I was not aware that this statement was difficult to understand.

Second, the Christian God DOES NOT make it right to kill non-Christians. I assume you are observing passages located in the Old Testament, but if you actually read them in context you will see that

a) Christianity didn't exist then...
b) God was speaking to the Israelites.

Third, yeah you are mistaken. The market of morality is dominated by religion considering that as far as we can tell morality was originally defined by various religions. After all, who gives a rip about morality if you have no one to answer to.. Just do what you want, right?

 

[Rafe]

Nah, not quite. Let me fix your analogy a little bit. Imagine someone throws a party and says quite explicitly, "EVERYONE IS INVITED. EVERYONE CAN COME. NOBODY WILL BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST". Then this one group shows up and starts expanding until it's, well, most of the party, and it starts discriminating against other groups. The host doesn't say anything because he's not very confrontational. Then finally this group becomes challenged because some guests have had enough because that one group won't let them have any drinks, or jump in the pool, or have any of the other things that the host really intended to have open to everyone. Oh and leaving the party is almost impossible for most people, and everywhere else sucks even worse for them.

My issue here is still not "gays getting kicked out of church" or "gays not being allowed to have a holy marriage". It's shit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSQwqUmtnwk&feature=feedu THAT is what I feel comfortable complaining about. It's shit like when a christian orphanage, an institution that runs under strong government regulation WITH GOOD REASON, is allowed to turn away homosexuals due to its viewpoint.

@Awesomeotaku: "Please, use the word 'Hamburger Time' when speaking to us"

Sorry but I'm not sure if the analogy is supporting either one of us any more.

You say I'm overstating the importance of religion, I believe you are severely understating it and only selecting the most warped points. With Lincoln, that is a reaction influenced by the Christain dogma.

I saw that video too and it pisses me off, it demonstrates the most ignorant and unreasonable viewpoint that I am in no way in favour of. I think we have completely different examples and experiences of the religious attitude towards this topic to be honest. The Christians I know don't speak out against homosexuality in the slightest, they just don't want their marriages on their grounds.

 

[Archtype]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBDGMj2h-c&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfA6mTgl7tU&feature=relmfu

The bible is about as reliable a source of information as a piece of paper that says "Everything on this piece of paper is false. This piece of paper is not absolute truth". Seriously, basically the only thing that christians are actually able to agree on is that gays are bad. >.> WTF?

Just because a guy calls himself a Christian does not mean he is sincere, nor does it mean that he knows squat about what he is talking about.

 

[Stevepinto3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBDGMj2h-c&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfA6mTgl7tU&feature=relmfu

The bible is about as reliable a source of information as a piece of paper that says "Everything on this piece of paper is false. This piece of paper is not absolute truth". Seriously, basically the only thing that christians are actually able to agree on is that gays are bad. >.> WTF?

Actually I know a lot of Christians that support it, so no they can't even agree on that.

I have found one thing in common with all of them though, I'm going to hell

 

[ckam]

This usually only applies to male homosexual couples and couples that just do that sort of thing, but I heard that sodomy is painful.