Is there any REASON gay marriage is wrong?

[ReservoirAngel]

I never get the "gender confusion" thing. What, some boy with 2 mums is gonna grow up thinking he's a chick? Seriously, I don't get it.

Gender confusion is linked to genetics or severe psychological trauma related to their gender identity.

There is no way a same sex couple could accidentally confuse a child about what they are.

...Soo...same-sex couples adopting kids can't cause it?

Look, gender confusion couldn't even be caused when EVERYONE in the child's immediate family tried to induce it, it's not something you can just do by accidentally giving a boy a doll or dressing your daughter in a baseball cap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Huh...so the conservative nutjobs are wrong about something else *adds it to the tally chart* This is starting to look promising

 

[Druza]

You have to assume first that there is right and wrong that applies to everyone. If not, then there is no debate. Each person decides what is right and wrong for his own self and disregards the "right/wrong" decisions of others.

So how do we decide this?

We must look to someone else, someone who can decide for everyone. I think we can all agree that no one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. So we probably shouldn't let a single person decide. How about a group of people? Thats better, but it still leaves room for mistakes. Again, no one is perfect. Then how do we decide? Have EVERYBODY decide (popular vote)? A very cliché phrase comes to mind:

"If everyone ELSE was jumping off a cliff, would you?"

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

And in the Bible it is mentioned several times that homosexuality is "Detestable to God". Leviticus 18 and 20 off the top 'o my head.

Before you hit the quote button and let the flaming pour from your fingertips, remember that God doesn't hate anyone. ANYONE! He loves ALL people, no matter what they've done.


Also, real quick, "Separation of church and state" does NOT, I repeat **NOT** mean no religion in government. I means that no church (or religion) can have power over the government and vice-versa. So the Pope cannot govern or make laws. It also means that the government can't set up a state church or enforce a certain religion.

 

[GenericPCUser]

I never get the "gender confusion" thing. What, some boy with 2 mums is gonna grow up thinking he's a chick? Seriously, I don't get it.

Gender confusion is linked to genetics or severe psychological trauma related to their gender identity.

There is no way a same sex couple could accidentally confuse a child about what they are.

...Soo...same-sex couples adopting kids can't cause it?

Look, gender confusion couldn't even be caused when EVERYONE in the child's immediate family tried to induce it, it's not something you can just do by accidentally giving a boy a doll or dressing your daughter in a baseball cap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Huh...so the conservative nutjobs are wrong about something else *adds it to the tally chart* This is starting to look promising

Yes, it turns out basing entire arguments on biased opinions and 2000 year old law doesn't really add up in today's world.

 

[Duskflamer]

2. As a christian it is wrong. The bible says in multiple places that men who give into lust for each other deserve the same fate as men who give into lust for a woman, and that no homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of god.

Alright, so no Christian homosexuals. What about all the people in the world who don't follow Christianity?

I thought about putting this in my initial post but couldn't think of how to word it just right.
I do not aprove of it, but realize not everyone is christian and have the right to believe in what they want. It's like having a friend, or in this case a fellow human being, who you see doing something you know is wrong but they won't listen to you. Now I, once again, find myself searching for a proper sentence to say "I care, but I know people won't understand why I care" because as a christian I'm just trying to prevent them from going to hell, but they don't believe in hell so... I don't know what to say.

Alright, that is a somewhat valid argument (I remember learning something at some point about how christians have an obligation to 'save' people. Granted I heard that mostly in that it was used as an excuse to wipe out entire civilizations in the Americas but I digress).

Here's the thing though, let's assume for the moment you're wrong. I know you believe you're right, I'm not saying you're not right. But for the sake of argument, let's say you're wrong. There is no God (or, there is a God but not the Christian God), there is no hell for 'sinners,' there is no 'heaven' for the faithful. If we accept this for the sake of argument, then what have you accomplished by forcing others to conform to your ideals? Nothing except making someone else's life miserable for something you thought was true.

Also, assuming everything in the bible is correct, did God not give us free will? Are we as humans not free to choose our own fate? Make all the arguments you like, do your best to convert people to christianity, but there is no reason to impede on the free will of people who a staunchly opposed to Christianity, and you'd have more success trying to save people who are less adamant about the issue.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

In a way yes, but it's my personal belief that kids should have both a male and female parent, so issues like gender confusion can be avoided.

You know people can have non-parental role models, right? I doubt any child would be gender confused due to lack of exposure to social norms as long as they went to school and interacted with other people. Gender roles are pervasive.

The last point is valid, but the whole "being gay is a choice" argument is one I really don't want to get into with a the presence of certain people in this forum.

Is it wrong to assume that "certain people" largely includes "gay people".

Certain people are people i noticed in the "Should gay characters be allowed in kids shows" forum, who will blast you as a homophobe the second you offer an arguement against them in any way shape or form.

And I am aware, its a possibility, not an absolute certainty. You won't get always get cancer from smoking, but its possible.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Before you hit the quote button and let the flaming pour from your fingertips, remember that God doesn't hate anyone. ANYONE! He loves ALL people, no matter what they've done.

See I have a problem with that. God doesn't love us. If he did love us, he'd let us all come into Heaven. You see, sending people to suffer for eternity for a thing they can't control makes him sound like 'that dad'. You know, the one who pretends to be proud of his son's dancing trophies but secretly weeps into an unused baseball glove.

 

[Canid117]

A book says so.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I never get the "gender confusion" thing. What, some boy with 2 mums is gonna grow up thinking he's a chick? Seriously, I don't get it.

Gender confusion is linked to genetics or severe psychological trauma related to their gender identity.

There is no way a same sex couple could accidentally confuse a child about what they are.

...Soo...same-sex couples adopting kids can't cause it?

Look, gender confusion couldn't even be caused when EVERYONE in the child's immediate family tried to induce it, it's not something you can just do by accidentally giving a boy a doll or dressing your daughter in a baseball cap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Huh...so the conservative nutjobs are wrong about something else *adds it to the tally chart* This is starting to look promising

Yes, it turns out basing entire arguments on biased opinions and 2000 year old law doesn't really add up in today's world.

Who'da thought?

 

[Dags90]

A book says so.

I was just wondering, is your avatar a marmot or other similar ground squirrel?

 

[Duskflamer]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

 

[GenericPCUser]

In a way yes, but it's my personal belief that kids should have both a male and female parent, so issues like gender confusion can be avoided.

You know people can have non-parental role models, right? I doubt any child would be gender confused due to lack of exposure to social norms as long as they went to school and interacted with other people. Gender roles are pervasive.

The last point is valid, but the whole "being gay is a choice" argument is one I really don't want to get into with a the presence of certain people in this forum.

Is it wrong to assume that "certain people" largely includes "gay people".

Certain people are people i noticed in the "Should gay characters be allowed in kids shows" forum, who will blast you as a homophobe the second you offer an arguement against them in any way shape or form.

And I am aware, its a possibility, not an absolute certainty. You won't get always get cancer from smoking, but its possible.

For children's shows I think sexuality in general should be kept out of it. Why the hell would children that young know anything about what hetero/homosexuality is, let alone what party they belong to.

Now, if your doing some Valentine's thing, yeah sure have a guy give another guy a card, why the hell not, but it's not like they need to start making out or even holding hands, it's just a small gesture.

 

[GenericPCUser]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Before you hit the quote button and let the flaming pour from your fingertips, remember that God doesn't hate anyone. ANYONE! He loves ALL people, no matter what they've done.

See I have a problem with that. God doesn't love us. If he did love us, he'd let us all come into Heaven. You see, sending people to suffer for eternity for a thing they can't control makes him sound like 'that dad'. You know, the one who pretends to be proud of his son's dancing trophies but secretly weeps into an unused baseball glove.

Men are not in hell because God is angry with them. They are in wrath and darkness because they have done to the light, which infinitely flows forth from God, as that man does to the light of the sun who puts out his own eyes.

-- William Law

OT: I have yet to see (though I am sure it could exist) any jurisprudence in the United States (Which is where I live) that says that marriage is a "right" for anyone.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

I don't think its a choice for the majority, but I'm sure at least some people fake it to get attention, be defiant etc.

I am talking about humans, my dear ImmortalDrifter, not about attention seeking bags of shit. I don't like to include such cases in my arguments, but I guess I should always exclude 1% as a margin of error

Ok, on reflection, those bags are people too, but attention whores are a page from another chapter, not to be analyzed in this thread.

Yes but they compose a lot of the flame that arises from arguments such as this. While I'm re sure that the vast majority are in fact "born that way", there are the people that choose to be (i.e. a woman leaves an abusive heterosexual relationship for a homosexual relationship) i worded it wrong to make them all sound like bad people but some do in fact to choose to be homosexual.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

But if they are only faking it for attention, they can't be considered gay, just idiots.

The sad truth is on the whole it's impossible to separate the fakers from the rest.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I don't think its a choice for the majority, but I'm sure at least some people fake it to get attention, be defiant etc.

I am talking about humans, my dear ImmortalDrifter, not about attention seeking bags of shit. I don't like to include such cases in my arguments, but I guess I should always exclude 1% as a margin of error

Ok, on reflection, those bags are people too, but attention whores are a page from another chapter, not to be analyzed in this thread.

Yes but they compose a lot of the flame that arises from arguments such as this. While I'm re sure that the vast majority are in fact "born that way", there are the people that choose to be (i.e. a woman leaves an abusive heterosexual relationship for a homosexual relationship) i worded it wrong to make them all sound like bad people but some do in fact to choose to be homosexual.

Those people from the abusive relationship example don't just suddenly think "wow guys are assholes...I wonder how women are. Imma go find out!" like it's some sudden switch. A lot of them have that tendency towards members of their own sex already there, it just took the bad experience to make them actually consider it.

 

[Duskflamer]

Stuff like this has happened all the time in history: Slavery, smoking, carbohydrates, ect. We (or the majority) thought it was good, but it turned out not to be. Wouldn't it be great if there was someone who knew everything and wouldn't make stupid mistakes like that...

Oh hey, God.

God gave us this handy book that tells us what is right and wrong.

The Bible.

Just to make sure, you are aware that the Bible endorses various things that we in the modern age think are terrible (like Slavery). Maybe it's time God sent down another book, maybe with some updated and clarified language to make sure we get the message this time. You know, if he actually cares that much about people following his word to the letter.

He did send down another book, some 1600 years ago. He gave it to some Arabs out in the desert and they decided to make this new religion called Islam out of it. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty underground right now.

OK, this is a tangent and total flamebait, but I honestly find the Quran (forget where the ' goes) to be more valid than the torah (old testament for you christians) or bible. The torah was supposedly found on some mountain in the middle east, the bible is the supposed word of someone who was centuries dead when it got around to being written, wheras the Quran is the words of someone who was alive at the time of writing. Not that I believe in Islam or anything but out of those three, I personally find the Quran to have more validity than the other books.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

For children's shows I think sexuality in general should be kept out of it. Why the hell would children that young know anything about what hetero/homosexuality is, let alone what party they belong to.

Now, if your doing some Valentine's thing, yeah sure have a guy give another guy a card, why the hell not, but it's not like they need to start making out or even holding hands, it's just a small gesture.

Sir the amount of respect you have earned from that statement cannot be properly expressed. That is exactly the way it is on both points. Lightly brushing on that topic i think gay characters in teen shows would be fantastic. It's the stage in peoples lives when sexuality comes into play, and where homophobic thoughts could be rectified easily.

 

[Canid117]

A book says so.

I was just wondering, is your avatar a marmot or other similar ground squirrel?

I believe that it is a morbidly obese gopher.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

I disagree with using the term "marriage" because the idea of "marriage" as it is has been the same for thousands of years

So? Traditions are bullshit either ways. What worked 200 years ago doesn't necesarelly mean it will work now. We need to change our "traditions" to suit our era, not cling to old beliefs.