The punishment is suitible, the extent of it may not be, perhaps just one bathroom. He should absolutely not do it during school hours where he can be seen doing it.
Is this right, or even legal?
- Thread starter ToastiestZombie
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Oh, what is that you say? Sometimes schools hand out punishments that are worse than the crime? Oh my God! Alert the media, this is an amazing discovery.
But seriously, I'm fairly sure what he did was stealing so of course it's against the law but if I was in his position I would do it anyway and if I caught him I would never do anything about it. People in positions like his have done much worse for worse reasons. As for the punishment schools always hand out punishments that in no way fit the crime. Like being 5 minutes late for class and being expected to stay in detention for almost an hour after school (yes this has happened to me before). One time I was given two detentions in the same day for something so trivial I can't even remember it, something I said I think that offended the teacher. But all that being said he is definately in the wrong. I highly doubt his only reason was being thirsty, I'm sure if he just asked the cafateria for a glass of water they would give it to him, and if they wouldn't then they deserve to get their drinks stolen.
But seriously, I'm fairly sure what he did was stealing so of course it's against the law but if I was in his position I would do it anyway and if I caught him I would never do anything about it. People in positions like his have done much worse for worse reasons. As for the punishment schools always hand out punishments that in no way fit the crime. Like being 5 minutes late for class and being expected to stay in detention for almost an hour after school (yes this has happened to me before). One time I was given two detentions in the same day for something so trivial I can't even remember it, something I said I think that offended the teacher. But all that being said he is definately in the wrong. I highly doubt his only reason was being thirsty, I'm sure if he just asked the cafateria for a glass of water they would give it to him, and if they wouldn't then they deserve to get their drinks stolen.
I'd say probably legally justified, but plain stupid. The school is taking away valuable education hours away from the boy. Hell, an essay would've been a better constructive choice(and, to me, a harsher punishment).
The problem here is that schools have, speaking of the public US school system that I attend, the ability to do pretty much anything to a student short of physical harm, and it's completely legal for them to do so, or the students and parents don't know any better, and on the times that a parent does file a legal complaint, it's for the most inane things: my child is failing because the teacher is a hard grader, why is my child being taught like a college student in an AP course, the teacher is Mexican and therefore unfit to teach US History. That, the ridiculous power schools have over students, in it self isn't the core issue though. The central problem here seems to be that school disciplinary staff has no idea how properly positively and negatively prohibit/foster behaviors.
Some times strong authority is needed to ensure a safe environment, but often this power is used unruly and without much thought. As you stated, that child WILL probably just learn to be a better thief if the punishment he received was rather poorly explained and disproportionate to the crime, which seems to be the case. Yes, to a troubled child thievery will probably have to be explained as being a serious crime, especially outside of school, and alternatives the student could have taken( e.g. asked friends or negotiated with school of financial issues and possible alternative payment models) should have been fairly discussed.
Want someone to be a better person, be a better person to them. Punishment is necessary, but it should always be constructive and fully explained to the punished, especially in a school environment where the goal is to facilitate education in not only academics but also social functions, people sometimes forget that part. Seriously, the kid stole less than $2, temporarily remove some extra privileges or something, don't take him out of class!
I don't know if anyone has said it is this yet but, cleaning the toilets would probably not fly as cruel and unusual punishment. Something like cleaning the toilets naked would be what's considered cruel and unusual.
The problem here is that schools have, speaking of the public US school system that I attend, the ability to do pretty much anything to a student short of physical harm, and it's completely legal for them to do so, or the students and parents don't know any better, and on the times that a parent does file a legal complaint, it's for the most inane things: my child is failing because the teacher is a hard grader, why is my child being taught like a college student in an AP course, the teacher is Mexican and therefore unfit to teach US History. That, the ridiculous power schools have over students, in it self isn't the core issue though. The central problem here seems to be that school disciplinary staff has no idea how properly positively and negatively prohibit/foster behaviors.
Some times strong authority is needed to ensure a safe environment, but often this power is used unruly and without much thought. As you stated, that child WILL probably just learn to be a better thief if the punishment he received was rather poorly explained and disproportionate to the crime, which seems to be the case. Yes, to a troubled child thievery will probably have to be explained as being a serious crime, especially outside of school, and alternatives the student could have taken( e.g. asked friends or negotiated with school of financial issues and possible alternative payment models) should have been fairly discussed.
Want someone to be a better person, be a better person to them. Punishment is necessary, but it should always be constructive and fully explained to the punished, especially in a school environment where the goal is to facilitate education in not only academics but also social functions, people sometimes forget that part. Seriously, the kid stole less than $2, temporarily remove some extra privileges or something, don't take him out of class!
I don't know if anyone has said it is this yet but, cleaning the toilets would probably not fly as cruel and unusual punishment. Something like cleaning the toilets naked would be what's considered cruel and unusual.
It's all about what kid and what the situation is. It doesn't sound to me like such a tough punishment would work. How about this, give him some sort of quick, small but annoying punishment (like a swat), then say, "hey, how would you like to work part-time at this school and make some of your own money?" I doubt your school can do that, and I assume they can't do child labor (IRONY!), but I think that's what the kid's foster parents should do.
What the kid did was criminal and absolutely deserved what he got.
HOW REPREHENSIBLE! THEY'RE ABUSING THIS CHILD, SURELY ITS ILLEGAL TO TREAT THIS CHILD THAT WAY. THEY'RE TREATING HIM AS LESS THAN HUMAN... AS... AS A CLEANER!!
(you know, cleaners? Those disgusting non-human creatures who sanitise the bathrooms and other places? yeah, I know, I think I'm going to be sick just thinking about them too)
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All sarcasm aside:
You don't steal stuff, full stop.
Unless you've got a shit school there are plenty of drinking fountains you can get a free drink from. The kid was just greedy. Even if there were no drinking fountains, you still don't steal.
Yes, he has a sob story and it's all very awful for him, but that doesn't excuse straight out criminal behaviour.
You really think the best course of action is to do nothing? You do realise that encourages such behaviour right? You really think thats a good idea when raising a child? Reward them for stealing?
His punishment isn't even that bad. You're reacting as if he had to scrub the toilet with his bare hands or pick up turds with his teeth or something.
HOW REPREHENSIBLE! THEY'RE ABUSING THIS CHILD, SURELY ITS ILLEGAL TO TREAT THIS CHILD THAT WAY. THEY'RE TREATING HIM AS LESS THAN HUMAN... AS... AS A CLEANER!!
(you know, cleaners? Those disgusting non-human creatures who sanitise the bathrooms and other places? yeah, I know, I think I'm going to be sick just thinking about them too)
---
All sarcasm aside:
You don't steal stuff, full stop.
Unless you've got a shit school there are plenty of drinking fountains you can get a free drink from. The kid was just greedy. Even if there were no drinking fountains, you still don't steal.
Yes, he has a sob story and it's all very awful for him, but that doesn't excuse straight out criminal behaviour.
You really think the best course of action is to do nothing? You do realise that encourages such behaviour right? You really think thats a good idea when raising a child? Reward them for stealing?
His punishment isn't even that bad. You're reacting as if he had to scrub the toilet with his bare hands or pick up turds with his teeth or something.
You can't force people to have good morals by menial labor. "Beat it out of him" only works when the "beat" is with a syringe, and the "him" is a murderer. Any other situation creates feelings of resentment at best, and hatred at worst. This isn't as simple as "dick steals stuff". The kid has problems and rather than instil a hatred of authority for humiliating him, you need to work with him to fix his issues.
Some people just need help, rather than unusually cruel punishment. If someone told me to clean the bathrooms I would just leave the school, get suspended, then have a nice week vacation. Punishment in schools is broken.
Edit: Also, you failed to mention which level of school this is. Is it elementary? junior high? high school? This is very very relevant. I'm assuming he was at most in junior high.
Some people just need help, rather than unusually cruel punishment. If someone told me to clean the bathrooms I would just leave the school, get suspended, then have a nice week vacation. Punishment in schools is broken.
Edit: Also, you failed to mention which level of school this is. Is it elementary? junior high? high school? This is very very relevant. I'm assuming he was at most in junior high.
Yeah, no, that's fucked up. It's clearly going to add significantly to this kids already fragile mental state. Not how the situation should have been dealt with.
A can of pop is not a necessity.MrDeckard said:
Please explain how stealing a beverage that causes dehydration rather than hydration when there is free hydration available qualifies as 'morally right stealing'?
That said, punishing the kid like that's only going to teach him not to get caught. There's root problems here that the school should look at getting him pointed towards, and while I don't feel the stealing is wrong, I feel compassionately looking at how to get him into a good nonabusive home is far more likely to reverse his larsonous ways.
I don't see what the big deal is. He can't be punished properly, since no amount of traditional punishment would affect him. This obviously affected him and put him in a very pathetic state. I'm sure that there is more to this than what you are saying; I don't know the kid, and from your description, he sounds like the average punk who has done stuff a LOT worse than stealing soda.
With that said: could it have been dealt with better? I don't know. Give me your master solution to how this problem could be solved.
EDIT:
With that said: could it have been dealt with better? I don't know. Give me your master solution to how this problem could be solved.
EDIT:
I actually want a response of what you think should have been done for this kid. You know him better than I do. I want a solution, not the problem.ToastiestZombie said:
He deserved every minute of it.
I imagine his tears were just crocodile tears so he won't have to do it again.
The secondary school I went to was very liberal and believe me they could not deal with troublemakers, only 1 child was expelled when I was there and that was for clubbing a teacher over the head with a metal chair.
Most punishments were exclusion or detention, the former never worked as a troublemaker would just run around outside the class room causing problems and distracting everyone in the current block.
Detention only worked on the kids who had made a mistake and were sorry about it, the troublemakers just never turned up.
Shame our school didn't do this considering the boys toilets had excrement painted on the walls and urine everywhere.
I imagine his tears were just crocodile tears so he won't have to do it again.
The secondary school I went to was very liberal and believe me they could not deal with troublemakers, only 1 child was expelled when I was there and that was for clubbing a teacher over the head with a metal chair.
Most punishments were exclusion or detention, the former never worked as a troublemaker would just run around outside the class room causing problems and distracting everyone in the current block.
Detention only worked on the kids who had made a mistake and were sorry about it, the troublemakers just never turned up.
Shame our school didn't do this considering the boys toilets had excrement painted on the walls and urine everywhere.
As I said in some of my later comments, I have come to agree with you. The soda was by no means a good reason to steal.DracoSuave said:
Actually, come to think of it (I skipped 7 pages of postings, sorry.) theft is theft and the school has a choice of incorporating detentional methods or calling the police. Yes, even for a 1 pound can of soda, you can get legal punishment.
And where some school make you pick up litter around the campus, this school decided to make him clean out the bathrooms. I suppose it's one of those alternative punishments when detention & writing 1000 times "I shall not steal" stop working (like with Bart Simpson.)
EDITUM:
Plus taking into consideration the phrase "If I do this, it would mean everyone could and would I want that?", meaning that if the school does not punish the lad, it would basically give off the message: "It's allright to steal, we're not going to punish you so go ahead and take what you want." Now that is a rather disturbing thought is it not? I think the school want to set a firm example for the rest.
Cleaning might be a bit extreme, but better to scare then to scar I suppose.
And where some school make you pick up litter around the campus, this school decided to make him clean out the bathrooms. I suppose it's one of those alternative punishments when detention & writing 1000 times "I shall not steal" stop working (like with Bart Simpson.)
EDITUM:
Plus taking into consideration the phrase "If I do this, it would mean everyone could and would I want that?", meaning that if the school does not punish the lad, it would basically give off the message: "It's allright to steal, we're not going to punish you so go ahead and take what you want." Now that is a rather disturbing thought is it not? I think the school want to set a firm example for the rest.
Cleaning might be a bit extreme, but better to scare then to scar I suppose.
You know what, I clean nasty shit and piss covered toilets 8 hours a day for a living, so let me tell you, it's not that hard really or as bad as one might think. The kid got caught stealing and had to do a thankless job for a few hours. Not that big of a deal. Besides, it sounds like the kid has a record, he should be thankful that he wasn't expelled.
How should it have been dealt with?AngryMongoose said:
Based on the Original post, it seems that 'nothing' will make this person a useful member of society - so how about we just shoot him and get it over with?
Truth is, Punishment very rarely fixes the person who commited the crime - but punishment usually isn't there to fix them, it's usually there to deter others who might commit the same crime.
Now, this child may just go back and re-offend, but how many other younguns at your school will have seen this punishment, and as a result, be unwilling to commit the same crime themselves?
Had this child simply been let go because of his poor family life, then that gives everyone else free reign to do as they please... It's a problem often overlooked in todays "Rehab over Punishment" culture.
Don't get me wrong, I believe that Rehabilitation is far more important than Punishment, but the more I see people trying to steer away from Punishment because "people only re-offend anyway", the more worried I become - because I know the ONLY reason I don't commit some pretty serious crimes is that Prison life looks pretty unpalatable to me. It is the fear of Punishment that keeps most people in line(because, even good people occasionally get the urge to violate our laws, for many reasons) - Take away that fear, and you get more "first time offenders".